From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - Trey Gowdy On Making Your Closing Argument

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

On this episode, Sean and Rachel are joined by the Host of Sunday Night In America and the Trey Gowdy Podcast, Trey Gowdy, to discuss his new book Start, Stay, Or Leave: The Art Of Decision Making, and the lessons he teaches throughout the book.  Trey shares the reasoning behind his departure from Congress, and how he manages fear and doubt in the decision-making process. Later, he emphasizes that anyone can become a master of the art of decision-making. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Light up Black Friday with Freedom Mobile and get 50 gigs to use in Canada, the U.S. and Mexico for just $35 a month for 18 months. Plus, get a one-time gift of 5 gigs of Roam Beyond data. Conditions apply. Details at freedommobile.ca. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm Sean Duffy along with my co-host for the podcast, my partner in life, and my wife, Rachel Campos Duffy. It's so great to be back at the kitchen table, Sean. And as I read the script, it says here, we're joined by the host of Trey Gowdy podcast and the Sunday night in America host on Fox News. He's also the author of the new book, Start, Stay or Leave the Art of Decision Making Trey Gowdy. I don't like this group because he's just our friend. And this book is awesome. And as soon as I saw the title, I knew I wanted to read the book. As soon as I read the. And so many of the things in it were relatable to our own life.

I was like, we got to have trade on the show. And so, Trey, welcome to the kitchen table. You're so kind, Rachel. And I'm sorry, I missed the other name. Is it Sean? It's Sean. Yeah. OK.

There's that guy. OK. Straight of my life, Trey. The straight of my life. You know, before we before we talk about the book, why don't you tell the story about when we were at orientation and I had a baby and I handed you the baby and what happened? Well, I remember it a lot less flatteringly to your husband than what you just described. I mean, y'all were famous. Y'all have been television stars since you were teenagers.

And the rest of us were kind of mesmerized. So there's Sean Duffy holding an infant in his arm, but he's trying to make a plate of food. And I'm frankly worried that he's going to drop the little girl. So I said, look, it's been a while for me, but I'm happy to hold your child while you make your plate. He said, that'd be great. Thank you so much. And I said, what's her name? And he said, honestly, we have so many, I don't remember. And I think I went, got a plate, sat down and ate. And I'm like, oh, Trey Gowdy has my child. You know what? I'm going to finish this plate.

oh, Trey Gowdy has my child. You know what? I'm going to finish this plate. But I'll tell you what, my favorite story, we're there for a presidential debate. I don't even remember which one it was. Let's not talk about that. Yes, let's do it.

Let's go. No, but Rachel is under the weather. I mean, Rachel is not feeling great. She's got a house full of children. She's invited neighbors over. She's making snacks. So she's sick. She's got a house full of children. She's invited neighbors over. She's making snacks. So she's sick. She's got company. She's got me there with you, Sean, doing whatever it is we were doing.

She's entertaining. And she's got a child on one hip making food for her guest with the other. And I'm sitting there thinking, you know what? Paul Ryan's right. Simpson Brenner's right. All the people from Wisconsin are right. The wrong person is in Congress. It should not be Sean Duffy. It should be anybody who can do all of what she did. And I was exhausted watching her. I mean, not enough to get up and help, but I was. I know I noticed you sat there. You know what? I actually have a friend who says, Rachel, I woke up today and I thought about you

and I got really tired. I, I cannot tell one other thing, Sean. Absolutely. Absolutely. I keep going. Keep embarrassing me. No, no, no, no, no. It's embarrassing both of us. So I'm visiting y'all. I'm having the time of my life in Wisconsin. For some reason, you had me flying to an airport. There was nowhere near where y'all live. So we had to drive all the way across the state. And we're doing our first event. And Rachel is coming with us. And Rachel's job is to introduce you and me. And she starts talking. And about 45 minutes later, the crowd, they're on their feet. They're cheering. They're clapping. They're going nuts. And then it was either you or me that were up to talk next. And you began to see the people filing out of the room when it was our turn. And at the end, Sean, it was just me and you talking to one another at the end of the event. I think the way that story goes is Rachel went for about 10 minutes and they loved it. And then you went for 40 minutes and they're on their feet. And then I went and they all started filing out.

I think that's the story that goes. I remember one time you took me to the 2012 debate. I think it was in Greenville. The presidential primary debate was in Greenville. I think it was in Greenville, the presidential primary debate. It was in Greenville, I think it was. Yes. And I was so exhausted doing Congress, kids at home. We got to the debate, and I think I stayed awake for about 45 minutes to an hour of the debate.

But at the end, I started dozing off. And all of a sudden, you're like, hey, you better wake up. We might have a camera on us. Open your eyes. Which by the way, I had never been to Greenville, which is your hometown, right? You're from Greenville. I was born in Greenville and I worked there. We live right next door in Spartanburg. In Spartanburg. That's right. So it is one of the most beautiful places I've been. South Carolina, this part of the country is gorgeous. And I thought Wisconsin's nice and we are, but man, South Carolina people were incredibly nice. Oh, I know in the winter time, Trey, I remember saying, Sean, why couldn't you be from

South Carolina? Now refresh my recollection, Rachel, you're not from Wisconsin. I have Arizona in my head, but I couldn't. Yeah, I'm from Arizona. So I never got used to the winter. I love the summers in Wisconsin. Absolutely. I mean, it's like magical. It's just the most beautiful place. The winters are brutal. So you love the 48 hours of summertime in Wisconsin.

I do. Those 48 hours, I just cherish. I cherish. It might be 48 days, but still not very long. You know, Trey, I want to get back to this book because I think Sean and I have been through a lot in our life. We've been married, what, 23 going on? 23, 24 years. We've had a lot of things going on in our life, but I think the most excruciating decision that we had to make in our life was to leave Congress.

excruciating decision that we had to make in our life was to leave Congress. When it happened, I was pregnant with Valentina. I knew that she had downs and a heart condition. There were a lot of things on the family front that we just thought weren't right. The wheels were kind of coming off this bus that we had, you know, this of our life. we just, it, it was a great 10 years, but I didn't want to change because I just, you know, I was, I was eight months pregnant and I didn't want to change. We'd probably debated whether to stay or go for about a year of just talking about it and going over it. We do what Sean and I call beat, beat a dead horse.

And, um, but anyway, the decision was made. I think Sean was the one most in favor of doing it. And I looked at this book of yours and all the things that people can do to make a decision and how to make big decisions in your life, big and small. Well, I'll pre-answer that, Trey, just to be clear. I made the decision. That's right. And Rachel did not want to make this decision to leave Congress. And kind of like you, I think Terry makes a lot of the decisions in your household. Rachel makes a lot of decisions in my household. But I reserve a few now and again.

Every couple of years, I might be like, I'm going to call the ball on this one. He did. He did. He called the ball. He was so certain that this was the right thing for our family. After you left, there was nothing else to stick in. I was like, I'm not going to stay here anymore. Trade. Trade out. He's gone. Paul Ryan's gone.

It's depressing. You had to make the same decision by the way, Trey. So what is the art of decision-making? Well, I think it is. I think you both put your finger on it. It is kind of what do you value most in life?

And for all of, of what Sean accomplished while he was there, there were things that he missed that he can never get back. So I imagine when you and Sean look, fast forward, your 75th wedding anniversary or your 80th birthday, what is it that you kind of want people to remember most about you? And I thought Sean was a fantastic member of Congress, and it's hard to kind of step out of, I don't want to speak for Sean, but no one in my life thought I'd ever be in the House of Representatives. They, you know, prison maybe, but not the House of Representatives.

That was me too. So here we are shocking every teacher we ever had, That was me too. So here we are shocking every teacher we ever had. And yet you voluntarily walk away. And for me, it was because Congress was just not part of what I saw at the end. It's not what I want people to tell Terry that they remember. The courtroom, yes, but not Congress. And what makes it challenging is it's so hard to get back in.

I mean, you think, well, I'll get out, and then when our youngest is in high school or when our kids are more established, maybe I'll get back in. But there are no guarantees that you'll ever get back in or can ever get back in. back in or can ever get back in. So there's a certain humility, I think, Sean, in saying I'm leaving on my own terms and I realize I may never get to go back. It just was not, it's weird, Rachel. Sometimes we love our coworkers and I loved working with your husband. I loved it. He's the reason I picked that terrible office I picked my first year. I loved being around him. So on that side of the ledger, you love your coworkers, but you don't love the work. And Sean, unless something happened after we switched offices, he's still sleeping in his office. he's still sleeping in his office. Yeah. It's you're showering in what can only be described as a Shawshank redemption shower.

It's for all, you know, people think it's glamorous and you get to meet all these famous people. The two most famous people I met are the two people I'm on the podcast with. See what I love is trade never charged me, but in South Carolina, it's a little more Republican than the district I had in Wisconsin. Yeah. And I love is Trey never charged me, but in South Carolina, it's a little more

Republican than the district I had in Wisconsin. And I had tough races. And I remember many a night I'd walk down to Trey's office. He actually had a Shawshank Redemption view into the middle of the... It was all brick. There's no grass. The courtyard of the Rayburn building was the office that he had. Yes, it was a prison. And I'd go down there and we'd look at ads. And by the way, Trey had already seen all the ads that were running in my district and other districts. You followed politics very well. You never charged me for those counseling sessions, Trey, which I appreciate. But you make a really good point about, and again, you talk about this in the book, but what's the story of your life? What do you want to be remembered for? And I always thought like you, I'm like, well, when I'm 80 years old, do I, am I going to go,

wow, I, you know, I passed that bill that no one even remembers anymore. I gave a great floor speech or is it that I was a good dad, that I was a good husband, that I gave to my family and I raised my kids the best I could. And I think in your case, with regard to the courtroom, it's like, you know what? I made my community a better place by the work that I do in a courtroom. And especially as prosecutors, you make your community safer. You take bad people and make sure that those bad people spend a lot of time behind bars, keeping your neighbors safer. And that's great and noble work. And like you, some of my most enjoyable time was in a courtroom and some of the most rewarding work. It didn't pay anything,

but the work was rewarding. But if I hear you guys talking, I feel like you're kind of dissing Congress. I mean, I think you guys did really important work there. And so I hope that what I'm getting from you guys is that maybe it's about the amount of time in Congress versus being in Congress. Is that right, Trey? You know, Rachel, that's a fantastic question. I don't know what I would do if I had to do it all over again. And I'm not big on looking back because it's the one thing we can't do anything about. And sometimes I get confused between regrets and remembrances. But I ran for Congress to get away from something. It was like an honorable exit from the courtroom. I didn't have to give up. I didn't want to become

a criminal defense attorney. It was almost like an honorable, unimpeachable reason to leave my other job. But Sean's right. He had tough reelects. And I didn't have that problem. My district was small. It was one media market. It's not a general election district. And yet, I still didn't.

It wasn't enough. So, yes, it is important work, but we all have friends that stayed longer than they should have. And I'd just rather jump before I'm pushed. And you don't know what's on the other side. I mean, we're all lucky. Well, Rachel's talented. Sean and I are lucky that we found positions at fox and we and you and i both married talent we did that but you know i'm also lucky my wife doesn't care my i think terry knows i was in congress i mean i wouldn't put a ton of money on it that she's not how she judged she just doesn't judge me based on that. Well, you, you, there's, there's a couple points. So first of all, the title start, stay, leave. So that is love the title. And I want to

talk about why you chose that title. You also talk about three ways to make a decision. So you can use your head, which is logic. You could use your heart, your emotion, and you can use your gut, which is your intuition. So how do you figure out when's the right time to use your heart, your head, your gut? I try to use all three with every decision. And I also talk a lot in this book about self-awareness. I mean, you have to, I get, if I were to try to convince the two of y'all that I was smarter than I really was or all the things we try to kind of the facades we present to people. I do understand that. I get trying to fool other people. I do not get trying to fool ourselves. So what are my weaknesses? I'm probably too logic driven.

I want to know the facts. I want to know the worst case outcome. I mean, I had to give up a job I love to run for DA. What's the worst thing that can happen? Well, you don't feed your family. So do I have a plan for the worst case scenario? And that's all kind of logic. I also don't want to minimize emotion because it's so powerful. The analogy I would give, Rachel, is we all have these navigation apps and devices. So we know, I think, or hope we know where we want to go. But there are 8, 10, 12, 100 different paths to get us there. And the emotion to me is the music we choose to listen to while we're traveling. It can excite us.

It can put a little quick in our step, but we cannot let emotions pick the destination because it'll change a thousand times depending on our mood. So I'm logic. Emotion kind of provides the excitement of life. If I were making a decision about running for reelection, making it the night of the State of the Union would not be a good decision because that's that's one of the better nights of the term. It's better to make it, you know, when you're in the middle of a shutdown and the water's turned off in the gym and you can't take a shower and there are no committee hearings and you can't go home because you're waiting around to vote. That's a better time. We'll have more of this conversation after this. Your teen requested a ride, but this time not from you. It's through their Uber teen account. It's an Uber account that allows your teen to request a ride under your supervision with live trip tracking and highly rated drivers.

Add your team to your Uber account today. I like that you include gut and intuition. I find, I have found, and I've had this discussion a lot with Will Kane, by the way, my co-host who, you know, Will, Pete, and I have come really close, and Sean with them as well. And the older I get, the more I trust my gut. And I can't explain it. I've had intuition feelings about people. And when I was younger, I would ignore them. And then as I got older, I listened to them. And I would say 98% of the time, I'm right now. And I don't know if that's just because I'm old, but the gut is important, isn't it? You're not old. I would offer another word. I didn't use this word because it has kind of Southern Baptist connotations to it.

But you are a woman of faith. I think I would call it discernment. Wisdom. Wisdom, yeah. I think I would call it discernment. Wisdom. Wisdom, yeah. So you mentioned that a lot of us have weaknesses and recognizing the weakness is really important.

And I think enough people aren't self-aware enough to think about their weakness. And then you can overcome it with using your head, your emotion and your gut to navigate that weakness. But we don't think enough about what are my blind spots? What are my weaknesses? And how does that impact the decision making in my life? Oftentimes, it affects it for the worst. You raise a great point, Sean. I mean, there are certain things we're good at, but we don't enjoy. And maybe we don't need to do those

things. But there are a lot of things we really love, but we're just not good at them. And you and I serve with people who are not great public speakers. That did not keep them from going to the floor of the house and putting us to sleep. We serve with people who are not great and committed asking questions. That did not. Now, I mean, there are certain things we can get better at. So I don't mean just, you know, there's certain things we can get better at. So I don't mean just, you know, the dais cast when we're born, but we all know people who think they're really, really, really better at something than the rest of us know they are. And so that's

what I mean by why would we ever lie to ourselves? I think that's a great point. You know what I think you talked about? You didn't put that in your book because it's Baptist. I'm going to give you something that's very Catholic. And I think that being married to the right person who can humble you, humble you. That's part of it. Sometimes we don't see stuff in ourselves. Some of that baggage and things that we do and the way we look at things that come from our family of origin. And so I think here's the Catholic word, it's called sanctification. And that being married allows you through your partner to see some of your own weaknesses and to fix them. And that's the sanctifying part about being married. And so that's also a component. I mean, we've all met people who are like, I have some aunts that never got married

and they're very eccentric. They're very set in their ways and they've never had anyone kind of point out like, that's weird. Like, why do you do that? Or why are you like that? What do you think about that? Like that being married is part of bringing that self-awareness. I think that the best decision I have ever made in life was the person that I picked to marry. So I think you're a hundred percent right. I would add to that. We're lucky if our spouse becomes one of our Nathans or one of our most trusted, closest advisors. Yes. My wife and my mom can get me to do things that no one else in the world can get me to do.

Explain the Nathan concept, Trey, so that people know what you're talking about because I like that chapter as well. All right. So King David, most powerful guy in the world, he's up on a rooftop and sees Bathsheba, who was someone else's wife. And he engages in conspiracy to commit murder, among other things. He kills Uriah the Hittite, just a terrible series of decisions. But he had an advisor named Nathan who came to him afterward and told a story about a rich man taking advantage of a poor man.

And David burned with anger and said, as surely as we're talking right here today, I'm going to take that rich man's life. And Nathan said, that man is you. You're the man. You're the guy that did it, David. So that got me thinking, do we have anyone in our lives that has earned the right to tell us that, that you're wrong, that you should have done this differently. And better yet, Rachel, do we have someone in our lives that can come to us before we make the bad decision? I mean, David needed Nathan on the rooftop when he first saw Bathsheba, not just afterwards, he needed her on the front end. So we're lucky if we live with our best advisors. We are lucky.

Yeah. I think that's such a great point. You and I did that well, Troy. We have good advisors and perfect advisors too. So there's not much we can criticize in them, improve with them, but they have a lot for us, no doubt, as the faulted men that we are. Can I ask you about this, Troy? Because this struck me as well. In chapter four, you talk about consulting your dreams, right?

because this struck me as well. In chapter four, you talk about consulting your dreams, right? And it's this balance of what's my dream, but do I have... I mean, again, my dream is to be in Congress, but I can't speak publicly and I'm a horrible politician. Maybe I shouldn't run for Congress or maybe I want to be a prosecutor, but I'm just not good in the courtroom. Talk to me about consulting your dreams and how that impacts the decisions that you make in your life. Well, you have to be honest with yourself. And there's a reason we call them dreams. And sometimes that's a goal that we aspire to. And sometimes it's just something we do for an hour out of the day. I love golf. I'm never going to play on one of the tours. But for 45 minutes on a Saturday afternoon on the driving range,

if I hit a couple of shots good in a row, I can dream about being on the senior, on the champion's tour. Or let's assume that Rachel at one point when she was a little girl had a dream of being in Hollywood or being on Broadway. There's nothing wrong with her for an hour while she's doing something else, just dreaming of what that would be like. Or you mentioned someone who wants to be in Congress. Watch the State of the Union, and what would your reaction be? When would you stand up? When would you clap? Watch a committee

hearing. What would you ask? But knowing that, okay, the hour's up, I've got to go back to my job. I've got to go back to my family. Some dreams can come true. You can be in Congress. The chances are slight, but you can be. That's where kind of self-awareness and logic kind of plays in. If we start selling stuff and abusing relationships or ignoring relationships in pursuit of some dream that has a 1% chance of happening, that's foolhardy. That's ridiculous. I've studied for the bar with a guy that wanted to play major league baseball, Sean. I mean, Rachel was bigger than Philip was.

He was never going to be a major league baseball player, but for an hour every day, so him for the bar exam, he got to be a major league catcher. I would go out there and pitch to him. There's nothing wrong with that. And there's everything right about it. But when the hour's up,

you got to go back and study for the bar exam, Philip, because you're not going to be a major league baseball catcher. Get back in the library. Get back in in the library but a lot of people told when sean was trying to when you know sean i told sean i think you should run for congress the first time i told sean that he thought it was crazy and then little by little he was working in the you know state party you know doing doing things going to the party events um the republican party events and eventually this all happened but

when sean and you know said okay i'm gonna run in this cycle i mean he tried to get paul ryan on the phone paul ryan i mean this this seat had been held by someone for 40 40 years i mean nobody thought it could be it could be done and so there is no no yeah i mean there is something about you can take a something that people think could never happen and you can do it. I think that's really, I mean, I do think that dreams can't come true. I mean, Sean wanted to do it and he did it. I have a different story for you, Trace. So Rachel's really good at this.

She actually will talk about, and I've heard a lot of people say this as well, but you have to say your dream out loud. If you have it, you have to be able to say it. And I don't know if I'm going to get hit for saying this, but there was at one point, Rachel was like, I want to do Fox and Friends. So she was just a contributor. She wanted to do Fox and Friends. And I was kind of like, really?

You think you can do Fox and Friends? I was kind of like, let me say it, right? When we talk about this a lot, she jabs me and dribs me on this. You never said, you never said that to me. No, you never said it out loud. He said it.

And all of a sudden, she mentioned it to other people. And all of a sudden, she got a shot to fill in and do Fox and Friends. And now she's the co-host of Fox and Friends weekend. But she said it

and she had the skill set to do it to your point. But I think talking about and thinking about and saying the dream actually matters. And then maybe people go, are you crazy? You don't have the skill for that. Or like, you know what? You should actually pursue that dream. But saying it is part of making it a reality.

Am I wrong on that, Trey? No, I think it's important who we say it to. Anyone who's around Rachel knows that she has the perfect personality for that. She is vivacious and she's smart and she follows current events. She would be a natural. What she needed was an opportunity. She just needed the opportunity. But we also know, Sean, people that if they said my dream is to be on Fox and Friends and they don't have any of those qualities, then you do need someone in your life to say, look, what's your second dream?

If that one doesn't come true, would you like to be a producer? Would you like to be a writer? I mean, look, I love basketball more than anything in the world when I was growing up. I would be out in the sleet and freezing rain practicing basketball. It was never going to happen. Never. And that's genetics. When you're slow and you can't jump and you can't shoot, you're not going to play professional basketball. So it was great. It kept me occupied. It probably kept me out of trouble. Rachel's dream was within reach because she had the skill set. She just needed the opportunity. So also there's a chapter about means, motive, and opportunity. And for her,

all three came together. She had the desire, she had the ability, and they gave her a chance. But let's assume she had the desire, but not the ability that would be. I mean, there's certain things you can learn. You can figure out how to do it. I don't know that being vivacious and being quick on your feet on television is one of them. I don't know. I do believe in like, you know, I studied economics. I was my major in college and I, you know,

it's an economic principle of, you know, comparative advantage, like looking at, you know, if I, you know, I went, when I lived in LA, I thought I wanted to be an actress and I went to acting school and I tried doing it. And I realized very early on I was not a good actress. I just wasn't. And somebody told me, I don't remember who was some casting person or somebody in the business said, you know, I think hosting is where you're at. You're better at just being yourself. And I didn't follow that. I kept trying to pursue acting and then somehow eventually came around to, you know, doing what you're good at.

I want to get back really quick to the art of decision-making because so many of us are confronted with really big decisions in our life. And that's why the title of your, of your book, you know, is so good. You know, stay, start, stay, or leave. And I go back to this excruciating decision that Sean and I made, you know, of whether he should get out of Congress or when he should get out of Congress. But there were many, many other decisions in our life that were excruciating. We always go to this idea,

and I kind of alluded to it earlier, Trey, of beating a dead horse. We literally talk about it a lot. All the time. All the time. We talk about it and talk about it. Different angles. Different angles, from this angle, from that angle.

And we're talking about big decisions, right, in life, from this angle from that angle and we're talking about big decisions right in life not the everyday decisions that you have to be decisive and quick on but you know long-term decisions that have an impact on on on our on our lives and our kids and our family and eventually after we talk about it enough it does become clear and also the thing that i have found interesting again again, using this example of, you know, what we, what we ended up doing is I have gotten lots of signs that we did do the right thing in terms of things that have happened in our family, beautiful moments that we have had since we left that we would have never had. Just seeing our family kind of getting back into balance.

There have been some really powerful moments that have reassured us in this decision that was so scary to make because, you know, we've been doing it for 10 years, you know, this life in Congress. Well, it sounds to me like you cross-examined the heck out of the decision before you made it because you realized that once made, this is not one where you can change your mind and go back and buy the car all over again or sell the car. I mean, you're out. You're out of Congress and somebody else is in that seat, and it's an even tougher path to get back. So you cross-examine the heck out of it. The bigger the decision, I think the more time, if you have it,

obviously you spend on it. And then validation, ratification, the Southern Baptist in me would call it peace. After you make the decision, is there peace? And it sounds like, A, there was peace. There's always going to be some nostalgia. Y'all are also fact-centric enough to know, okay, well, that was an hour and a half. How about the rest of the two-year term? So we miss out on that exciting hour and a half. It's almost like making a movie. When it's all said and done, it looks fantastic, but the process is so painful and long and arduous. I am glad that y'all got ratification, validation, and I'm also glad that Sean got to leave on his own terms. And look, I mean, let's don't kid ourselves. When we were in the House, people

wanted Sean to run for Senate. I don't think I'm remembering that incorrectly, Sean. I mean, they wanted you to run for even more than what you were. They wanted me to run for Senate and you'd run for president. So that was a level of classification. Yeah, they never said which country. You sound like you have peace, Trey. Obviously, you found peace. Do you feel like what you're doing now, I mean, that you're contributing as much or more to?

It's a good question because you have the number one podcast at Fox. You have a great platform on Sunday nights with your own show that you have a considerable amount of say over on what you put out and what message you deliver. what you put out and what message you deliver. And in a way, I mean, you got to vote in Congress, but the impact you have on the conversation and the culture has been now amplified even more with the podcast and with your position at Fox. And I would add to that a private thing that nobody probably even knows about, which is teaching a class at a local liberal arts school. And I teach a law school class. You do? What do you teach? I teach a class on persuasion about how to be good in front of a jury. And I teach the criminal justice system. I want to take this class.

You don't need it, Rachel. You can teach the class. You don't need it. So that's off television. Nobody knows I do that, but seeing young people, you know, my kids age a little bit younger than my kids learn critical reasoning and learn to see the other side of an argument, um, is so rewarding and it is off camera. Nobody really, except my co-teacher even knows I do it, but it brings me a lot of, a lot of fulfillment.

So, um, I love that the Fox is fantastic. They, they don't tell me what to say or who to have on, on Sunday nights, but I also could not do Sean, what you do. I couldn't do it five nights a week. Couldn't do it. I couldn't do what Rachel does. I mean, I got barely enough ideas for one night a week. Barely. So it's important that I know that. I doubt that. No, trust me. Wait right there.

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know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. And you're going to do that in South Carolina, right? I mean, you're going to be at home as you do your show, which is fantastic for the life, work, family balance. It's actually really cool. And with technology today, there's so many more opportunities like that. You go, I can have this amazing career, but I'm at home in the place that I love. from my home. And at 8.01, I walk out and there's my beautiful wife and Mary Langston, who is my scheduler in Congress, and they're both asleep. They fell asleep during my show. But there's just something beautiful about being in your own den one minute after your workday is up. And then I started getting the texts from all of our former colleagues and friends, Sean, about all the things we should have said and did not say and got wrong. Rachel, I don't know if you get those texts, Rachel.

Do you get texts from people telling you what you should have done? Sometimes. You get suggestions on what to say. I get some suggestions. People text me even during the show because we have a four-hour show, you know, Trey. So there's plenty of time to like. I can't imagine. See, I know I could never do what you do because you have co-hosts and you can't.

There's an article out this week about another network morning show having some problems stepping on one another. Don Lamon moments where he's like, yeah, you know what I have to tell you? That is my co hosts are just so awesome. We just have fun. Those four hours. We feel like on the weekend we broke into the building cause there's no one

there. And we kind of put on this fun show and we just have a blast. The hours. It sounds like a lot. Like I say four hours but it just flies by um but i here's the hard part i do have to get up at three in the morning i have to leave my house at three in the morning so and see you gotta know yourself and i don't i'm not convinced there is a 3 a.m i haven't seen it since i was in college. College is the last time I saw 3 a.m.

And it wasn't waking up at 3 a.m. It was coming in at 3. I bet. But to do something that you love. And for us, I love Wisconsin. Rachel, as you mentioned, is from Arizona originally. But we spent the last 23 years in Wisconsin and had for these jobs to move to New Jersey, which, frankly, has been a lot better than I would have thought it would have been. But our hearts, like you were in South Carolina, and we dearly miss it. But you know

what? The most important thing is I'm with my family. And I was like you, you were gone from your family. I was gone from mine in Congress. And now to be with my family is the most meaningful thing for me. And we're talking a lot about Congress and our time at Congress, Trey, and we had the opportunity to do some wonderful things and fight some really great battles. But I look at my time and I go, you know what? I've met some really remarkable people, really talented people with all these diverse backgrounds, but probably one of the most impressive people that I've met is you. I mean, your intellect, your generosity, your wit and humor brought a lot to our conference, brought a lot to the country. And as on a personal note, no one has been more generous and kind to

me from the first, we weren't even sworn in. On the first day, we went and ran a bus from the hotel to go to orientation. Trey Gowdy, what you see on TV, he's even better in person. You're a gem of a man. And that's why, listen, I appreciate you writing this book, Start, Stay, or Leave. You know what? I've picked up some lessons in life and I want to share them with anyone who's willing to read them and listen and help make better decisions as they navigate the course of their own lives on the lessons that you've had. And so, again, this is just an extension of what I saw in Congress of Trey Gowdy giving back, giving more, and still keeping his priorities in place, his family and his golf. Yeah.

I'm taking this book and I'm giving my copy to my son and then I'm going to have him pass it on to my daughter. I think this book and I'm giving my copy to my son and then I'm going to have him pass it on to my daughter. I think this book is so important. I think we're all faced with these. No, you're supposed to buy books. I know. No, no, no. But honestly, I do think we are all doesn't matter what age we are.

We reach these crossroads and we have to make these decisions. And there's so much wisdom in your book about how to make those decisions, but more importantly, how to think really far ahead about what you want to be remembered by. What are your true values? Who are the important people who really matter what they think versus what the world thinks? And I think you really brought that home in this book. I think the book is fantastic. Well, I cannot thank you both enough. Sean, you were the most famous person I had ever seen.

So that's why I was nice to you on the bus. I had never, I mean, I saw Van Halen on MTV, but I didn't have Van Halen on the bus with me. I had you. So I also want to thank you all for giving me the pleasure of working with Evita. And so when I think about this book- People don't know that. Wait a minute. So Evita was Trey Gowdy's intern in the summer. He was gracious enough to have her come and work in his office, which was wonderful. And you know what? You know what? When I think back on Congress, it was the Duffies and Kristi Noem and some of our other

colleagues to say, we trust you with the most precious thing we have, which is our children, for them to work in your office for a period of time, honestly meant more to me than anyone saying, hey, give a speech here or give a speech there. I mean, to say we trust you and your office enough that we're going to put one of our children there. But there's no reason for Evita to make the same mistakes that I made. So when we write books, part of it is these are the mistakes I made. You don't have to touch the stove. I can tell you it's hot. You don't have to touch the stove. I can tell you it's hot. You don't have to touch it. I mean, she's already done so much more than, I mean,

when I was her age, I wouldn't know what she's doing, but I want to thank you. We feel the same way. We were partying on MTV and she's writing for the Federalist. I get, we were also humbled by, she loved working at your office. And what she loved about it was not just, you know, the interaction she had with you, which, of course, she could have worked for anybody in Congress on the Republican side. And we recommended you and she wanted to work for you. And that says a lot. We're going to phrase like, sure, she can come. But she also loved how she, you know, she didn't have any experience with the South. You know, that was her first experience of feeling that, you know,

that regional warmth and love that came out of your office. And she, she definitely spoke a lot about that South Carolina hospitality from having worked in that office. So we were always grateful that you let her work there. She's so kind, But here's my regret. All the young people that worked in my office, the dominant thing that they heard was that he's the dumbest person in the world. And I think that confuses them because if you don't know everyone in the world, how can you possibly say that Congressman Gowdy is the dumbest? So I'm sure she was sitting there thinking, well, he might be. He probably is. But

how do you know that? I mean, talk about a hard job answering the phone in a congressional office. Oh, my heaven, Sean. Can you imagine what some of our folks heard? They heard. Yeah. In your district, they loved you. You have no idea. And in a 50-50 district. I would take my own phone calls many times i would say i'm john on the phone call just not john then they're about sean as they're actually talking to me i should have had you come in and answer some phone show me for that but that's something that's to get a little taste of it well listen they were lucky they were lucky i never it did not matter what was going on i don't know that I've ever seen you, but that you did not have a smile on your face. And there were plenty of times you should not have had one.

Listen, Trey, I appreciate you doing our podcast. I appreciate you writing the book. I appreciate your friendship. And I appreciate what you're still doing for the country. Because I think to have this really smart, thoughtful take on the – listen, this country is going through a lot of stuff right now. There's a lot of issues at play. And you have this approach, I think, that Rachel might be a little more partisan sometimes on her show. You just, you kind of take this, this tack that I think help even independents and Democrats walk through what common sense your ideas are and how wrong the left is.

And so I appreciate that. I mean, it's a good service. I have to ask you one last question. Yes, ma'am. All right. So the title of your book,

okay. Keep it in mind. Should Joe Biden stay? Stop. Should he start, stay, or leave? Okay. So what is your answer? Given everything that's happened, Chinese balloon, everything going on in the world right now,

you're giving advice to the president. Should he start, stay or leave? Don't get this answer wrong. Well, here's the way I would look at it. If he were to call, I would say I'm afraid that people that have been in politics that long, Rachel, that's what they see in their final picture. They see a politician. And if that's what you see, you're never going to leave. I'm a big fan of leaving a moment or two before people want you to, not having to be pushed out. But the chances of someone, I mean, it takes a remarkable amount of humility to say, I could do this, but I'm not going to do it. And I don't see a ton of that in politics. I think for him to leave, he will have to be beaten. But I'll also

say this, you know, what, who would the nominee be if it weren't him? I guarantee you, we would not like the nominee any more than we like President Biden. Can I make a point on this here? I'm going to give you my thought on it. My thought on it is shame on Jill Biden. It was very obvious. And I say this as a political spouse, and I've said this on the air. And by the way, Jill Biden's press office tried to get me fired for saying it. And I'll say it till I'm blue in the face because I was a political spouse and I loved

Sean too much that if I saw any sign of even the smallest sign of dementia, which you see sometimes, no, but seriously, I can't believe that she would put her husband through this. It's very clear he wasn't up for the job. It's very clear that there were going to be humiliating moments in there. There have been plenty for him and plenty for the country because he was not ready. And I do think this goes back to what we were talking about, self-awareness and the role of a spouse. I really put a lot of this on Jill Biden. And so that's my opinion. I think she, as a spouse, if she loved her husband, she shouldn't have let him run.

And I think the country would have been better for it. And I agree with you. Maybe the other options weren't weren't great either. But I suspect Kamala would not have been the nominee. I suspect it would have been Bernie Sanders. And then I think Trump probably would have beat Bernie Sanders. But that's this. I'm not good at math, but I think the three of us got the same number of delegates as Kamala Harris. I think so, too. On the Democrat on the democrat side so no i do not think she would have been the nominee i mean i think all four of us are sitting at zero delegates yeah well anyway thanks so much for for your for your time on this podcast and again for this i love both of y'all we love you too we love you back trey you're a great american brother thank

you for joining us god bless you you, and I can't remember the names of all of your children, but tell them I asked about them. We can't remember them either. We can't either. Thank you, Trey. God bless y'all. God bless. God bless. Bye-bye. Thank you for joining us on our podcast. If you like

our podcast, you can rate, review, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We appreciate you joining us for this special edition of The Great Trey Gowdy, joining us on his new book, which is fantastic. The book is as smart as he is. Start, stay, leave. If you're having a big decision in your life, most of us are. A great book to read, a great way to start to think through some of these big decisions in your life, big and small. Big and small. Trey Gowdy. Till next time.

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