From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - What Would You Do For Freedom?: One Woman's Harrowing Escape From North Korea

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

On this episode, Sean and Rachel are joined by North Korean Refugee and Speaker for the Dissident Project, Grace Jo to discuss her upbringing under the North Korean Communist regime, the political prison camps operated in the country, and her attempts to flee to the United States. Later, Grace reflects on her experience living in China after her escape from North Korea, and how she was able to find refuge in the U.S. with her mother and sister after years in hiding. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm Sean Duffy, along with my co-host of the podcast, my partner in life, and my wife,

Rachel Campos Duffy. Sean, it's great to be back at the kitchen table. Campo, stuffy. John, it's great to be back at the kitchen table. Today, we have a very interesting guest because this week is the anniversary of Ronald Reagan's evil empire speech. And I know you are a big Ronald Reagan fan. So am I. That speech did so much to draw into contrast freedom, communism, liberty, oppression. Bold leadership. He wanted to draw bright lines

between freedom and suppression. We still remember the evil empire and that evil empire still exists. That oppression still exists and nowhere more, by the way, than in North Korea. And today we thought it'd be really appropriate to bring in a guest um she's part of a really interesting organization called the dissident project which we're going to talk about because it's a free service that anyone can bring these speakers young people who have lived through these tyrannical um systems of government and have made it over to america And now they're telling their stories. One of them is Grace Jo. She's a refugee who escaped North Korea. And we just thought it'd

be really enlightening to hear her story. Grace, welcome to the kitchen table. Good morning. Thank you for having me, Sean and Rachel. It's great to meet you here over the phone. Sean and Rachel, it's great to meet you here over the phone. It's my pleasure to participate in this Fox News podcast. My name is Grace and I came from North Korea. Great. So let's talk about what life was like for you because you were born in North Korea. What was it like as a child growing up there? Well, in the first few years from 1994, well, I was born in 1991. So 1991 to 1994, life started to get challenged for North Korean people. And after 1994, our family started to like starving from 1996. So I was three and a half years old, and four years old. And my first memory, actually, most of them is at six years old. And I remember about 10 days straight,

we were drinking cold water only because we didn't have any food to eat. And we were eating tree barks, wild vegetables, grass. And those kind of lifestyle get longer than two years. And then our body was kind of suffering from malnutrition. So our body was very weak and we didn't have any food or like nutrition food to consume. So it was very difficult time period for us. So Grace, who all was in the family? Who was all, you know, going through this experience with you at that time? Yes, after I was born, I had eight family members in my family. I had my grandmother, father, mother, oldest sister, my oldest brother died when he was six years old. And I had one more older sister, me and two younger brothers. But unfortunately, most of them, they all passed away. And now I

have my mother and one of my older sisters live in the United States. So and those the ones who passed away, they passed away from starvation, or from other circumstances? The siblings? Yes, many of them passed away in different ways. But my grandmother and my two younger brothers, they all passed away by starvation. And my father, he passed away because he wanted to bring the food from China from his distant relatives. And he tried that for three times.

And at the last time, he got discovered by the government. And then the government took him away from us. And he never returned it to us. And we never saw his body as well. Wow. It's so, like, as parents ourselves, I can't imagine. I mean, I think about you as children going through these these difficulties, but the burden on your a little background into North Korea and to why families were starving and why there was no, what was happening in the government, that there was no

support and no resources? Sure. So I often hear from my mom that when she was young, we had a lot of food to eat and the government gave us a lot of like a peach or seafood a monthly basis. So they had enough food for that time, but they didn't have enough clothes and shoes to wear because there's nothing they can buy. That's the challenging for her timeline. But after 1994, which is the Kim Il-sung died that year, and Kim Jong-il took power at that year. And after that, the rations completely stopped for those regular employees, for the small factories and miners and the little companies. But only those rations given to the military groups and high officials and the elites groups

at the time. And after several years... So those connected to the government were able to get the resources because there were less resources. So that's where they were going to. So from 1994, they started to cut down the resources to those people. And around 1996, almost all the people from the countryside, they were barely getting the rations.

And I remember I only got once in my six-year-old year. That was Kim Il-sung's birthday. And the government will give us two bags of snacks. It includes some cookies and candies. And those little children under 18 will receive those two bags of gifts. And then we have to hold that and stand in front of the portraits of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il.

And we have to bow to them and say, well, thank you for giving us this great gift. So that was the kind of a brainwash thing. And we have to staring it for a week before we open the box. But that was the one time we received something from the government other than that we did not receive anything so we had to find a way to survive by our own so we have to um every morning we have to go to the mountain

collect some wild vegetables and tree barks and some type of roots that we can eat. So to that point, if you look at how the economy works, are there a lot of farms in North Korea where people are growing their own food? And maybe in a community, if one person has chickens, another person grew some crops, was there trading that happened, or was there no real agriculture? Sure. So North Korea, comparing to other countries, it has a lot of mountains, but they still

have some farms going on at the time. However, all those farms belong to the government because when the Kim Il-sung taken power, the North Korea got independent and become the communist country and the government became the whole full power. So all the belongings in society is belong to the government. So even though we have running the farms and even though we are growing a lot of corns and corpse, at the end of the fall season, we all have to return those collections to the government. And then the government will take some portions out of it and give to those farmers. So basically, even though we are growing and work so hard for the whole season, we are not be able to get the food, enough food for the families. get the food, enough food for the families. Right. The government reappropriated all the land from all the private farmers and took over. What was your dad's job?

My father's original job was he worked in a Musan city. There's a big factory that actually mines out the metal from, extract the metals from stone so there's a one uh big factory there i mean the mine work uh he worked at there but uh his uh raised father uh suggested him to go to the countryside that's why we all moved to the countryside and after he moved to the countryside he was cutting the woods and then make a nice thin wood trunk and then export them to the city and the government will take that and trade it with China so he was working for the what they call the wood forest work yeah yeah yeah the woodwork forestry that kind of like cutting wood and and it would be used for export to china so let's let's start to talk about your escape before we go there so

if you if you look at the people in north korea and if there was truly an election would the people choose communism or would they choose some other form of government? Did they like the regime they were living under or did they want something different? So my grandmother's age, they lived in different decades. They experienced some Japanese colonization and some of the freedom lifestyle. So they might have some different opinions about choosing the regime style.

However, current generation, we were brainwashed since we were like four or five years old, since when we start to speak. So we only know about North Korean regime and the education system in North Korea are teaching that North Korea is the best country over the world. And South Korea is a poor, America is the biggest enemy, and we are proud of ourselves and all those great things that we taught since in school. So we barely know about the outside of the world. However, the younger generation after 1990s, whoever born in 1990s, they were able to learn about the outside of world through those korean dramas or korean pop songs of course those are illegal activities but they will find a way to

watch those because those are not be able to find in north korea so now there's many people they kind of know about the world outside of north kore However, they have not choice in North Korea. So if I want to make a choice, then I have to escape my country. And then that's dangerous roads. Yeah, that's so interesting that, you know, back in the 80s, there were also a few television shows that made their way into the Eastern Bloc countries. And people were like, oh, wait, people live like that. And it's interesting how popular culture and shows can give people a window into the world that their government's trying to hide them. So what you're telling us is that indoctrination works.

It worked somewhat that you said those who had experienced North Korea before communism had, you know, as Sean said, if you had been put the vote to them, they would not have voted for it. But but those who were sort of in the indoctrinated school system didn't know anything else and were believing some of the government lies. Yes. So the brainwash was very powerful because even the foreigners, when they visit to North Korea and several times and they come back and I met some of those people at the events, but they also saying that, oh, North Korea region was great. I mean, how those brainwash worked in Pyongyang when they visit there. So the North Korean regime, they're smart and they're studying examples from other countries like East Germany and Southeast Germany was the great example. Soviet Union was the great example. So they're learning example and they're tilting the information, upgrading their lecture systems, and then they're brainwashing their people.

So it's very tricky. But people, they're trying to find a way to survive in North Korea. They try so hard, like my parents. But at the end, still there's no way we can survive in our country. That's why we are escaping to other third countries. I don't want to get to that in a second. I find it interesting that in North Korea, they're trying to teach their people to love their country. That's why we are escaping to other third countries. I don't want to get to that in a second. I find it interesting that in North Korea, they're trying to teach their people to love their country. But in America, we're trying to teach our children to hate our country, which is just an

interesting note. But is there a second amendment in North Korea? Can people own firearms? So if a group of people said, I want to push back, I want to fight back against a tyrannical government, I have a means to do that. Can you own a personal firearm in North Korea? If you did something that's against the law, which is the Supreme Law or the 15 principles of North Korean law, which is similar to the Ten Commandments from the Bible. Because in the Ten Commandments Bible, we were saying that God is the supreme God and we cannot have other gods than our God, right? So in North Korea, we also have that similar principle that instead of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il, the Supreme Law, our country without the passport or without the legal paperwork. Then we will go to the prison. And in the third country, for example, in China, if we received or watched a foreign broadcast or news, then we will consider as political prison camp.

If we met foreigners or went to the church, then also considered as political prison camps. So many categories. In the Western world, it's very common and it's freedom to do it. But in North Korea, it's the big serious crime category. So many people, they go to the political prison camps and they will live forever in there until they die. What do you know about what happens inside those political prison camps? It sounds pretty miserable outside of the camps. I can't imagine how much worse it is inside. Sure.

So I met a few ladies who actually served five years in the political prison camp. They released and they were trying to escape again. And they got caught again in china and we stayed in the same prison cell for about 13 months in china they share the stories every day their life and they said in the morning they have to wake up they line up and they will march to the work area many people they will sign to different workforces and they will work at the forest or to the farm. If you work at the farm, it's a little bit lucky because you can collect something to eat. But if you work at the forest or cutting wood on the mountain, it's hard

and it's very dangerous. So every day they have to work so hard and only two meals are given, but those meals are very small portion. So most of the prisoners in the political prison camp, they become so skinny after six months or eight months harder labor. And it's harder to survive more than three years in the political prison cell because the work is so difficult. So if someone escapes North Korea and gets into China, are the Chinese actually capturing North Koreans and sending them back to North Korea? Yes, so Chinese government and North Korean government, they kind of like a close relationship with each other. So Chinese government never recognized North Koreans as refugees. So they formed a special group. It's undercover officers,

and they will travel in the train stations and inside of a train, they will search for North Koreans. And when they find out suspicious people, then they will reach to them and check their IDs. And even as North Koreans, we don't have IDs to prove. So if we say we don't have it, then they will take us to the local officer office and do some interview. And if it's confirmed, then they will send us back to North Korea. And then there will be punishment for you when you come back, obviously, for having escaped. So once we step into our land through those officers, there's one officer will come to us and pick us up. And the first words they were saying that oh we cannot raise our head 45 degree

up so we should we only can see their feet not their face so even though we stay in the prison for whole year we don't know whose face it is and then the words they were saying that oh from this moment you should not think you are a human being. You should think that you are the animals and whatever teachers tells you to do, you have to obey 100%. That's the first word we hear after we land our own homeland. prison cell. We call it Boi Bu. It's like a CIA level in the U.S. And we will stay there about a month or two months until the officers find out whether it's

regular case or political prison camp case. So once they sort it out, we will send it to the second level government. And then at the end, if it's a regular case, we will serve at least six months labor camp and then we will get released. But if not, then we will like transferred to the political prison

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Because what I've heard is that somehow you have to get into China and get connected with the Christian group. I don't have all the details. I'm so fascinated by how one gets as lucky as you to find their way out. So my family actually, because my mom and my dad, they went to China three times before we all got caught in North Korea. So they kind of knew about the path to China. And after my father passed away, my mom remembered that path and she carried me on her backpack. And she was holding my sister's hand. And we walked for three days, no, four days and three nights to get to the river side from our house. And we walked unpaved roads, mountains.

We had to make our way to get there. And once we reached to the river, it was called the Tumor River. That's border between China and North Korea. And the river was a little bit wide, but not very wide. So the whole trip took about 45 minutes for us to cross the river. And you were how old were the first time i was

six years and total i escaped three times so that was in 1998 july 18th that was a summertime and we crossed around 12 p.m noon it was a bright day um water level reached to my mom's hip my sister's chest and i was at my mom's back so i was watching under the water but it was very challenging and it was a very like a fearful moment for us to cross the river yeah amazing so you said you did it three times were you you were caught the first yes so that Yes, so that was the first time. And after three years later, I got caught. And I was 12 years old at the time. And we sent her back to North Korea from Dandong, China.

We were trying to go to South Korea to find freedom because for those years, we realized that we cannot find freedom in China. So we were hoping to go to South Korea and get the protection. But on the road, we were not lucky enough. So we all got caught. And 12 people in our group all got caught together. We sent back to North Korea. And we stayed in the prison for a month. And then I sent to the orphanage shelter.

So I was transferring from orphanage shelter from city to city until I get to my hometown. And of course, I escaped in the middle and I went to different city and finally went to my hometown and waiting for my mom and my sister get released from the prison. But it was a long journey. However, at that time when we escaped,

my mom bribed one of the soldiers who guards the border. And we were able to cross the river at night. It was wintertime, so we had to walk the ice. Oh, my God. When the ice cracking, it was really like touching our nerves. It was a very intimidating moment. And this was the last time that you crossed?

No, actually, that was my second time. That's the second time. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so then at this point, you're around 12? Yes, I was 12 years old. You're around 12. You get into China. How long do you last in China before you're caught again?

And I got caught again in 14 years old. That was 2005. Okay, so you were there two years. Okay. And while you're in China, how are you surviving in China in terms of work and your mother and whatnot? How are you eating there? How are you surviving? So I really love all the people, even though from Northorea or china but i hate their system the

government systems so after we come to china of course we met some good people around the village and they fed us first and then they gave us clothes to change so we didn't get help from those chinese citizens a lot that's how we can survive. That's awesome. So tell us what the final time, the third time, tell us your journey and then how you got to the States. So the final time when we got caught, the reason we got caught was we saw a North Korean Human Rights Act passed in 2004. And the newspaper, well, one of the missionaries who helped North Koreans at the time and our family, he brought a Korean newspaper from Seattle, Washington. And that newspaper said that George W. Bush signed the North Korean Human Rights Act, which allowing us to legally enter the United States as refugees. And that gave us a big hope.

And my mom decided to come to America instead of South Korea. So we decided to stay in China a little longer than other group of people. And then we were helping the missionary to rescue rest of North Korean defectors from China to South Korea. And we wanted to help him because the broker fee was not enough. And we had an idea that my sister will follow with the broker with the first group to go to Inner Mongolia. My mom and I will stay in Qingdao, China and help those netfectors come to our house, rest a little bit, get the new ticket and go to the Inner Mongolia. So we kind

of work as a team at the time, but unfortunately only one group successed and they are living in South Korea right now. But the rest of the group, they didn't follow the instruction correctly. So they knocked the door at the border security area. That's how they got caught. They reported all of us. We all got caught at our places. And so we were in prison for 13 months in China, and we sent back to North Korea.

And at the time, the pastor, John Yoon, after he repatriated to the United States, he asked a lot of believers to group raised 10,000 US dollars. And he bribed the six officials from North Korea and rescued our family from the political prison case to turn it to a regular case. We got released, went to our hometown, and we managed another bribing with a soldier. And we crossed the Tumor River at night. It was cold, cold river and pitch dark. And we couldn't even breathe hard. And that time, all three of us were holding our hands and holding our clothes and walking in the water. But almost the water reached into my mouth area, so I had to tiptoe myself and be able to not drink the river water. But after we get to the China side,

it's not even safe either because that was the cross border area with camera installed in China side. So we have to be very, very careful. And we had to find a way to get to the broker who are waiting us at the China side. And then once you meet with the broker, then what happens? You get, they arrange for what? How do you get to the States from China? Sure, so it was a long journey, but if I summarize a little bit, once we met the broker, they have a car, so we will get into the car.

We drove for two and a half hours to get to the city, and then they already arranged the housing for us to hide. So we were hiding in the house. We wouldn't go out shopping or anything. So we would just stay in the apartment. And then one day, about two months later, we were hiding in the apartment. And the broker ran to our house and told us that he received a phone call from North Korea broker. And he said that those six officials who got paid, they had arguments themselves and reported each other,

and they all got trouble in North Korea, and they're looking for our family. So as soon as possible, we cannot stay in the border side, we have to go somewhere deeper and run away as far as possible. That's what the broker told the pastor in China. So we were so scared. And then next day we drove another van and then we drove more than 15 hours straight to get to the base in China. And at the time, our stories and our document

was already submitted to UN at the time and UN already had our names. So we contacted the pastor, pastor called the UN office and then they had a communication and we finally got protected under the UNHCR office in Beijing, China. And then you had a flight? Yeah, so at the UN's protection, we had one apartment, About more than 20 North Korean defectors were there at the time. And after 15 months later, we finally got the news that we got the document and we can fly to America. So that was March 21st, 2008.

And we were flying directly from China to USA. And we stopped at Tokyo, China for two and a half hours for transportation. And you land, so you're how old by the way? At that time, I was 16 and a half years old. Wow. I mean, just, it feels like you lived like 20 lives until you were 16. It's just an incredible story. And you land where? It was a Chicago international airport. It was huge. And we were doing fingerprints and taking pictures and all the legal documents. And we stayed in a Chicago hotel for one night.

And the next day, we took another flight to Seattle, Washington, which was our first residential state. So when you got to the States, what was your—and obviously you lived in China for some time. What was your view when you got to the States? what was your, and obviously you lived in China for some time, what was your view when you got to the States? Actually, it was a funny story. When we, before I landed to Seattle, Seattle is like a forest state, right? So on a plane, when we see it, everything is a tree and green and we barely see the houses. So ourselves, we were talking, oh, there's all the trees, just like my hometown country. Is the U.S. going to send us to the countryside because we came from North Korea?

But it was surprising because at the airport, after we landed, it was a big city, beautiful. A lot of city life is developed there. So it was a shocking moment. And the pastor actually, he was living there and he ran to us with about almost 10 people holding with the cameras. So we don't even know what's going on, but it was a very excited moment. Wow. So what is your, you know, you get into, you get to Seattle, how do you get used to being in America? How do they acclimate you? And what are your impressions of just life? Well, basically, until I was 17 years old that year, I did not have any education in China because we were hiding. So I felt like my brain was like, it's just blank page. And after

I came to America, I was just drawing or drawing or writing on the blank page. So every single step was new to us, even the writing check or paying the phone bill, paying the rent. Everything was new to us. So we have to learn step by step from the church members or we have to find a way to learn it. And those learning process took, I think for me, it took about six years. And after 10 years later, I can feel like, oh, I know what the American system runs and I know what to do. But realizing the freedom, I think it took about two years. So when you look at your experience in North Korea, and then now you've been here for 15 years,

any lessons that we should learn, any warning signs that you see today in the U.S. from what you experienced in North Korea? I feel like my life in the U.S. is so blessed. Everywhere I go or whatever I do, even though I'm in college, it's such a blessing. So I would like to tell the American citizens that I know a lot of challenges going on in the U.S. and a lot of difficulties we are facing every day. However, comparing to my country, it's wonderful and one of the best countries I'm living in right now. So I hope everyone can be more happier and be able to protect this freedom country for the future. Yeah. So you're saying your message, for those viewers just jumping in right now,

we're speaking with Grace, who is a defector from North Korea. Her story is, I mean, the escape sounds like a movie and it just riveting. But then you come to the United States and you do feel that Americans are not as grateful that maybe they need to see what other countries are like. And that's why you're part of this dissident project to let people know what life is like in countries where you don't have freedom. I feel like a lot of people I met during high school or during college and also some other workplaces, I feel like we only be able to see the challenges in front of us. So it's easier for us to complain instead of be thankful. But if we compare to the life from North Korea and even we don't have a freedom like American government can give us, it will be totally different.

And those challenges are not the challenge as according to our life experience so now you're part of an organization that also helps other north koreans get out and get to the u.s and and yes some of the other organizations we are involving is either weate them in China or bring them to South Korea and give them new freedom or give them the messages, like God's messages, and help them to find their own path. like Daniel DiMartino, who we had on our podcast before, and they will go out to schools, tell their story of what happened in their country under socialism, under communism. What's your message about communism to young people, Grace? Well, communism is, on a text, it sounds so beautiful, but in reality, it's the terrible system we can live in the human being life. Well, I don't say that capitalism is the only system I embrace,

but like under authoritarian system is horrible life we can live. So I hope the young generation in America or audience from America know that the freedom is very valuable and this is the only thing we can protect for our human being. So please do not fall into that authoritarian system category in the future, no matter what. Yeah, all the Marxism being sold as wonderful in our schools. Yeah. And you're right. When you sell communism or Marxism, it looks beautiful on paper. Socialism. There's equity.

There's, you know, everyone shares and it's a beautiful system. I don't think when people look at history, it's never worked. And if it's going to, in air quotes, work, it's only through an authoritarian regime that enforces this distribution um where you don't get to keep the fruits of your labor uh everyone shares and then people start to slide in their work and and and people starve you experience that yourself

so what does your mom do so you're here with your mom yes is it your sister with you too so it's your mom your sister and you is? So it's your mom, your sister, and you. Is that correct? Is that who survived and made it over? Yes, only three of us survived out of eight. It's just so heartbreaking. And what does your mom and your sister do now? My mom is working full time at a spa. And she learned a new skill and she's enjoying right now.

And my sister, she is working as a manager at the American Deli. It's a fried chicken place, and she is enjoying it. And I am a college student at Savannah College of Art and Design. Oh, that's such a wonderful place. And so you're studying design, is that right? Yes, I'm learning about interior design. So hoping one day when my country region falls and the door opens, I can go into North Korea and rebuild the cities.

Wow. By the way, Savannah is gorgeous. It is. Yeah. And that school is so well known for that. So do you think that that is a possibility? Do you think the North Korean regime will fall? As North Korean defectors, we do see the hope.

The regime might fall one day, and it's coming soon. Because in the history of the Bible, we also see not the third generation power maintains and give to the next generation. So we're hoping that. And then also the Kim Jong-un's help was not really good at this point. And the next inherent leader is not founded yet. So a lot of conflicts in the government side, we're kind of seeing the hope that something's going to happen in North Korea in the near future. No doubt. Listen, Grace, you're-

Can I ask one more question before we let you go? How much, I hear you talk about the Christian the Christian pastors who saved you how much was your Christian faith a part of so since I was 10 years old I met two young Korean Chinese pastors in China and that's how we learned about the Bible from them and since then somehow God sent us so great people near us, protected us from all those dangerous moments. And then when I was 13 years old, I strongly beloved his presence. And since then, all my decisions, all my daily begins will start with his guidance. So I would say he was the only friends, parents, and my spiritual father. Absolutely. Your story is amazing.

And you're one of the lucky ones who was able to get out. And I love your message that be grateful for your freedom. You're right, because those who come from a place that didn't have freedom know how we should be so thankful every day that we have the liberty and freedom in this country. And again, you are an inspiration, and we thank you for sharing your story. Yeah, thank you for sharing your school, your junior high, your high school, your elementary school can benefit from hearing the real life stories of people who have lived under these evil empires, whether it's in the Eastern Bloc countries, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea. People have escaped and understand what it's like to live under those systems of government and and have an appreciation for the kind of freedom we have here. And also thank you, Grace, for the reminder that you gave us that when you went to China, it's the system that's evil. The people were good and they helped you escape.

And that's such an important message for us to remember as we all pray for an end to communism, socialism and oppression. Grace, you are an inspiration. Thank you for joining us. Encourage people to look up, again, the Dissident Project online and you can bring Grace and others into your schools to help educate young people. Thank you so much. God bless you. Right there. We'll have much. God bless you. Went right there. We'll have more of this conversation next. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans,

and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month at Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at fizz.ca. So listen, I think she is a fascinating guest. And I think so many people don't hear the stories. For me, I think back to the movies I saw about East Germans trying to come across the wall and get into West Germany. But we kind of think that time is dead since, you know, the fall of the old Soviet Union. But this yearning for

freedom and escaping communism still exists today, and as evidenced by, you know, Grace telling her story. And by the way, as we started off, I was talking about the Brandenburg speech and tear down this wall. This is the evil empire speech from Ronald Reagan. They're all good, Sean. No worries. No worries. They're all good. They all melt together for me sometimes. You know, Sean, it's so great that you brought up that her own husband was starved to death in a political prison. That she took this risk, hiding out in apartments in places she didn't know in China, hoping she won't get turned in, hoping that the bribe even works with the guards. I mean, all of this is so incredible. There are other dissident stories from North Korea, Sean, that I've heard of where the mother and daughter come across and the only way to survive is to go

into the sex trade and hope they can raise enough money to bribe someone to get out of China. I mean, these stories are harrowing, but they speak to the human spirit. She's so lucky they fell into the hands of these, God bless these Christians in China who are being oppressed themselves and yet are extending a hand to their brothers and sisters in North Korea and helping them escape. So through the story, I think of two different things. And the first is that we had a radical group, and it goes back over 100 years, of socialists, people who believed in communism, and they were unrelenting. And they have worked for 100 years to infiltrate institutions,

and they have effectively infiltrated almost every institution in America. And now today, we have a government that has embraced this idea of socialism, some of these Marxist ideas, and they now teach our kids the very concepts that are an affront to freedom. And as Grace said, we should hold on to it. We should be grateful for it. But here, we are undermining it. And as soon as you go to school and kindergarten, all the way through the university system, medical schools and law schools.

And it shows a lack of understanding of how beautiful freedom is and how tyrannical and horrible socialism and communism is. That's my first thought. My second is, again, I bring this up a lot, but the Second Amendment was not about deer hunting. The Second Amendment was- I noticed you asked her that right away. I love that. Because our founders understood that the Second Amendment was about having a balance from a government that could become tyrannical and that the people have the ability to fight back. I'm not, again, advocating insurrections, but they understood that. And you'll, again, whether it's the old Soviet Union, whether it's North Korea,

China, Cuba, Venezuela, they take away people's firearms. And that's the way you're able to suppress people and make sure that they are subject to the rule of their government, as opposed to the government being subject to the vote of the people. Right. If the farmers in North Korea had arms, the government wouldn't be able to as easily appropriate their lands, take their lands. And that was the beginning of, yeah. If you can't eat, you're going to pick up a firearm and go, listen, I'm not going to live under this system. My family is starving. You'll do extreme things to fight for your family. And again, who wants to take away your firearm? Look at, I mean, all the ideas that the left pushes, in addition to taking away my firearm,

I'm like, this is everything that's wrong with every society that I don't want to become. And so preserving and protecting the Second Amendment, again, it's so important for a democracy. And I look at our founders and they were so brilliant in how they set up our founding document, even the ability to have free speech, to push back against your government, to talk about ideas that you don't agree with, whether it's, again, the COVID example was so important to go, we should have a debate. We should have dissent. The government shouldn't work to silence dissenting voices online, like what they did with the Great Barrington Declaration and those scientists that the government pushed to silence on social media. Or those doctors in California, the first ones who came out are like, yeah, those first two that they were banned off of YouTube, you're right. The first thing, they want to take they were banned off of YouTube. You're right. The first thing they, you know, they want to take away your guns.

They want to take away debate. This is how authoritarianism creeps in. They're attacking religion. And what you'll notice, it happens very slowly. They creep. They creep. And when it happens slowly, then it happens really fast. And it moves very quickly. And it's hard to regain what you used to have if you let small incursions happen on your freedom.

And I think we're at a critical point right now to preserve the ideas of the founders, the ideas that made this country so great. And sometimes I get depressed about the future because we're not teaching these great principles to our kids. Right, which is why they want to take over the schools and why it's so important that you see governors like Ron DeSantis saying, I'm not just going to take this wokeness out of my elementary, junior high, and high schools, but I'm going to take on the public universities, the ones that the taxpayers pay for, and I'm going to get rid of these DEI programs, which are Trojan horses, for all this kind of indoctrination. That is the kind of momentum that needs to happen on the side of freedom or else we're going to lose this country.

Because Ron DeSantis understands that this is a political ideology that the left is using taxpayer money to foment in the kind of, I mean, the blank pages. She talked about that, how she was sort of, she got to the States. She was a blank page and she was trying to learn everything.

That's what our kids are. They're blank pages or little pieces of clay. Do you want to give them to Randy Weingarten? Or do you want to do this yourself? I didn't want to follow up on this question for her either. She said, you know, she obviously does not like communism, authoritarianism, but she also said that

capitalism isn't the only way. We should have followed up on that with her. I'm sorry. She's wrong. Grace is wrong on that. Capitalism is the only way. It's not perfect, but I don't know any other system. But capitalism with morality, capitalism with faith, good people in a capitalist society, it flourishes. Now, if you have people that aren't good, that aren't generous, that aren't kind, that aren't caring, capitalism will struggle. But in this country, we've had good, faithful, moral people with values, and capitalism has

thrived. But that is why people are losing faith in capitalism, Sean, and losing hope in capitalism. Why many young people, including myself, I have problems with some aspects of capitalism because it has, at this moment in our history, been divorced from morality. Our country is no longer, I mean, if you think about it, they want us to, you know, the idea of Christianity is sort of something they want us to do in private. They want to kick us out of the public square. If you don't have a moral, ethical society and religion, as even Mayor Eric Adams is now admitting, is a force for helping to form morality. If you don't have morality, capitalism devolves into greed and into something

you don't want. And so you have to have both. And that is the struggle. And I'm sure that if we had Grace back, that is probably what she would talk about. And just to case in point on that, look at the NBA. The NBA is, listen, it's capitalism, right? They're selling sports to the American people, but they're willing without morality to say, we'll go partner with China and embrace the Chinese idea that have Uyghurs in concentration camps. And we'll defend them more than we'll defend the American idea. You'll have an American company. You'll have Apple that will go over to China, bring American jobs, American

technology to China, empower China. And by the way, take the jobs away from the American people and revenue from the American government. And I think at a different time in American history, companies would say, you know what? I have an obligation to my own people, to my own country. I'm a patriot and I'm a good neighbor. I want to do all I can to keep these jobs in my community, in my country, and sell this end product not just to Americans, but to people around the world. But when you divorce yourself from morality, you see people, business leaders, just doing what is best for them. And that's patting their pockets, making as much money as they can, the consequences be damned. And it's shameful, which is why to the point, which we got off on

a little side tangent there, capitalism does work with morality. I think Ronald Reagan understood that. And to go back to our start, I mean, to call the Soviet Union an evil empire. Well, I think what we've all learned, and I think COVID has probably brought it into perfect focus for so many people, and I've told you this before, Sean, I don't want to live by lies. The lie ends, it will not go through me. You can say that a man is a woman and a woman can be a man, but you can say that, but it's not going to come through me. I'm not going to perpetuate that lie. I'm not going to perpetuate all the lies about our country,

that somehow our country is systemically racist, when we know that even in the last 50 years, there has been tremendous advancements in equality and tolerance and so forth. So I'm just tired of the lies. And this is a podcast that will not perpetuate lies. We won't perpetuate lies. I'm glad we brought on Grace, Joe. I love that when you came and talked about the lie will not, how do you stop it? The lie won't pass through me. And so what can we all do is say in our own lives, we won't let that lie pass through my mouth. I'm not going to repeat the lie for whatever social pressure I might get. I might not say

anything, but I won't repeat that lie. You're right. Men cannot be women. It's impossible. You can dress as a woman. You can pretend to be a woman, but God made you as a man or vice versa. Or the best outcome for a child. And by the way, all the data proves it. You know, the best protection against poverty and a life in prison and drug abuse and for good grades is a married mother and father. You know, for that child to grow up with a married mother and father in one home. By the way, you'll be richer too. Yeah.

Yeah. So exactly. So that is, I mean, there are all kinds of things that our society wants us to not say because it's not politically correct to say. But I think that's the challenge that we all have. And we realize we still have that freedom. There's this social pressure.

But if we all fight back against these lies, if we all refuse to buy into this woke paradigm that they want us to live in, we can escape it. Or we can not. And we end up in a place that feels a lot more like North Korea. And we can teach our kids. Listen, I'm grateful for Grace coming on our podcast as well. You've found Grace, which was wonderful. Yeah. I'm a big fan of that project. I'm a huge fan of that project because I think that, you know, the kids are getting all kinds of messages in schools and through the social media about what communism is, about, you know, how great socialism is. We have AOC and Bernie Sanders out and out and proud

socialists. And, you know, it isn't until you start to hear the stories of people who have escaped socialism, the stories of people who have lived under communism, then you start to understand it, especially for children. I think stories are powerful. So anyway, Grace, thank you for joining us. Check out The Dissident Project. If you've enjoyed the conversation, we did too. Definitely let us know. Subscribe, rate, review this podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts.

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Eastern as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers and guests. Eastern as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers and guests. Listen live on the Fox News app or get the free podcast at GuyBensonShow.com.