From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - What's Wrong With Congress With Jason Chaffetz

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

This week, Sean brings former Utah Congressman and host of the Jason In The House podcast, Jason Chaffetz, to the Kitchen Table to reminisce on their days in Congress. Sean and Jason agree members of Congress have become more divided through the years, and explain how this division has a negative impact on lawmaking productivity. Jason states that there should be a balance of standing tall on principle and working with the opposing side of the aisle. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Normally I have a co-host, Rachel Campos Duffy, but my five-year-old brought home a little bug from kindergarten and rachel is out sick she's feeling better but she had a very great uh 48-hour flu which i've commented that my immunities must be better than hers because i have not had it yet so rachel's not in today i'm flying solo and i thought to do a solo podcast there would be no better podcast than to bring in the great jayfin chaffetz former utah congressman uh chairman Oversight Committee and host of the Jason in the House podcast. So, Jason Chaffetz, thanks for joining me and saving my podcast for this week. Well, you know, you set it up by telling me I was going to get to do a one on one with Rachel.

But, you know, bait and switch. I'm here. I'm happy to chat with you. I appreciate that. That's that's That's, that's my, that's my mantra here. I sell people, you got to do something with Rachel. Then I'm like, Oh no, she can't make it. You get me. That's right. Now I get zero Rachel, but Hey, you know, I love serving with you in Congress. You made it fun. You're always happy warrior, you know, a lot of weird things going on in Congress when we were there, but, um, it, it was, you know, people, there, a lot of weird things going on in Congress when we were there. But it was, you know, there were a lot of positive people and you were certainly one of them. So we know and I always say this about our fellow colleagues, even former and current members,

most people that go to Congress, whether they're a Republican or Democrat, they're really nice people. You can't really be a jerk and win a popularity contest and then an idea contest and get elected. You have to be a nice person. Now, there are exceptions to that rule, and I'm not going to tell you who I think my exceptions are. There are some jerks there, but most of them are pretty nice. But that's what I want to talk to you about, kind of Congress and this idea that most people run because they want to help change their country. They want to make their country better. They have ideas that they want to implement.

And it's one of the most powerful bodies in the world. I say it's more powerful, you probably would agree, than the Senate. The senators might disagree with that. you probably would agree than the Senate. The senators might disagree with that. But Jason, I think things have changed because when you go to Washington, there's no way you can, you know, it's not a dictatorship. You have to work with other people. You have to compromise not only with your colleagues in your party, but oftentimes you have to compromise with Democrats, whether they're in the House or the Senate, or if you have a Democrat president. And it seems like this idea of working together to compromise isn't working any longer.

Well, but you have to. I mean, look, if our founders wanted a glide path for ease, convenience, and speed, they would not have set up 435 people in the House of Representatives and 100 senators. That's not the way to expedite and do things quickly. It forces and necessitates compromise and building coalitions. And you're right, you can't be that jerk who nobody wants to work with and actually get something done. And that's the difference. You have some blowhards out on both sides of the aisle that will go out and say and do outrageous things, and they get a lot of attention for it, but they generally don't get anything done.

You've got to find that right balance of standing tall on principle, but working with the other side of the aisle. I think that's right. And I always have this viewpoint that because people value different things, I could be a 60% winner and you could be a 60% winner because we don't value the same things if we were negotiating. Obviously, as principal, you like me, I mean, I'm not going to compromise on the life issue. I believe that life begins at conception. And that's, I mean, there's just things there, there's, there's hard lines that you won't cross, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of compromise that can happen to get things done. And it seems I mean, there's just things there's there's hard lines that you won't cross. But there's a lot of there's a lot of compromise that can happen to get things done. And it seems like today so many members are just going to fight, but not to get anything done. They don't they don't accomplish much of anything.

Yeah, I you know, I hearken back to the old Ronald Reagan adage that, hey, look, if you're getting 80 percent of what you can get done, you know take the win and fight another day but you're right there's some things like abortion now i'm sorry that's just black and white there's no there's no compromising uh there but you know so much of this has changed in part because of social media it's like everybody's kind of their own instagram star and they're more interested in making sure they get the right post with the right, as opposed to, hey, look, here's what I was able to get done in this atmosphere. If there were more conservatives, if there were more Republicans, I could get more done. But in this atmosphere, here's what I was able to accomplish. I don't know.

That was part of our formula for success. You know, we've won five general elections and one with pretty healthy margins and so it worked pretty well for me but i think there are too many people like you said that um i don't know it's just it's just there to throw a bomb on things and not really actually move the ball forward and i think what what happens too is people don't have relationships and relationships build trust and these are not the years that you and I serve, but in the olden days, we'll say whether it was back in the 90s and 80s and for sure in the 70s, members of Congress would all move to Washington, DC. I always wanted to live in Wisconsin. You wanted to live in Utah. We both slept in our offices. You kind of were a trailblazer in that. We had one home, which was in our state. But people used to, you know, Democrats and Republicans, their spouses knew each other. Their kids had birthday parties together. They would do

foreign travel together to do fact finding missions. And they got to know each other. And when they got to know each other, they trusted each other. Oftentimes, people from different sides of the aisle, and sometimes in the same party, don't get to know each other, unless maybe you're on the same committee. You got to know your Democrat colleagues really well on oversight. I knew my financial service colleagues really well, too, on financial services. But beyond that, people don't get to know and trust each other. And when you don't trust each other, it seems like they can't take the leap of faith together. Yeah. I totally agree with everything you just said, because you got to break bread with somebody

in order to kind of get to know them and understand them and, and feel what it's like in their shoes. You know, one of the best things they did and, and his heart, he passed away, and I feel so bad about it, but, you know, my ranking member at the time was Elijah Cummings, and I suggested to him that I would go spend a day or two in his district if he would come out to Utah and get to know the third congressional district of Utah, and we did that, and it was one of the best things that we did because it was just illuminating you know the things i saw in inner city baltimore i had no idea i didn't know what a food desert was he didn't know what the public lands and drilling for oil and gas looked like on federal lands and so you know those types of things were were just i think sincere efforts to reach out. The other thing, Sean, that I think Pelosi has really taken to new levels that I just don't like, and it happened under Republicans as well.

Don't get me wrong. It's not just one-sided, but the process is broken because when you don't go through regular order and you don't do the appropriations process the way it is, when you don't even, likeations process the way is it when you don't even like right now the current congress neither we're not going to stop no no you're going to stop because you're talking congressional talk explain what you mean when you say regular order what does that mean because i think people don't understand it's like why is it broken and this is a really important part of it explain that to our listeners so the the president's supposed to introduce a

budget then the house and the senate do a budget. And based on that budget, then the appropriations committees can break up and do the appropriations for, is it 12 or 13 different appropriations bills? And then Congress gets to literally go line by line, offer amendments and vote on that. The problem is since the 1974 Budget Act, only one time since 1974 has it gone all the way through that process in what's called regular order so that everybody gets to participate and that everybody gets to actually vote on things. Look, if I lose 100% of the votes, at least we got to vote on it but this year in this congress the democrats didn't even present budgets let alone did they go out and they you know have the appropriations

bills voted on they took it in one omnibus bill which is yes or no and that's just a terrible way to govern and and did the appropriations committee and its members write that bill or was it really nancy pelosi who wrote that yeah exactly it's all done in the leadership office. The bill that just passed, it was introduced at 1.30 in the morning, $1.5 trillion, more than 2,700 pages, and they voted on it later that day. I mean, nobody read that thing. No one could read it, right? And you're you're stuck trying to figure out whether you're a yes or no. And you have no idea what the finer points of it are. And you really want every member of Congress to engage in the legislative process. And you're right.

We've had this suck where leadership has taken over all the legislative roles and they disenfranchise members of Congress, even even chairman of committees. They disenfranchise members of congress even even chairman of committees they disenfranchise yeah i want to go back to a point you said i i think it's so great that elijah cummings came to your district because i think he might disagree with you but then but when he goes there he might go oh now i understand why jason is fighting so hard for these issues because it matters to his people and you might go oh, I see why Elijah's fighting for things because I see that this really matters to his people. It doesn't matter to mine, but I get it matters to him.

I actually made that offer to Maxine Waters. She was the ranking member and then now the chair of financial services. And I get along with Maxine well. I like Maxine. We disagree on most all policies, but I like her. I get along with her. So I'm like, why are you coming to Wisconsin? No, she did not want to come to Wisconsin. And I even offered in the summer, not in the winter, Jason. And she's still so good on Elijah.

And I think more members should should should do that. But I think you're right when you talk about the process is broken. And frankly, speakers and leaders of each party, whether it's Nancy Pelosi or if it's going to be Kevin McCarthy as the speaker, if Republicans win, he could change that process. I hope he does. I'm not sure he will, but I hope he does. But I want to ask you about something else that's changed. So there has been the history of an institution and and the norms of an institution really matter. And so the way the Congress traditionally has always worked is Democrats put Democrat members on committees. They choose as Democrats what members serve on what committees and Republicans pick who serves on committees as well. Democrats don't pick Republicans to serve on committees

and Republicans don't pick Democrats to serve on committees. Whether you're the majority or the minority, each party picks their members to serve on committees. That's now changed under Nancy Pelosi's leadership where they took Marjorie Taylor Greene off of her committee assignment. Republicans put her on, was it, I forget what committee she was on

but they took her off um they on the january 6 committee kevin mccarthy appointed jim jordan and and i think banks as well and some others and nancy pelosi took them off this has this has abolished basically the history of the institution since its founding what impact jason you think that has on people actually working together and trying to find common ground in getting along, breaking bread together? I really think what Nancy Pelosi did was just absolutely fundamentally wrong. I think the minority party has rights. The minority in one of their rights is to be able to appoint whoever they want to put them up into a committee of their choice. These members were elected by the people of their congressional districts.

And they're sent to Washington, D.C. And the minority party gets to pick who serves in those minority seats. I can't believe that, you know, in reverse, the Democrats would stand for this. And it's going to take somebody like a Kevin McCarthy who stand up tall and say, you know, this was just fundamentally wrong and we're not going to participate in it. We're going to give you rights, even though you took away our minority rights. It's quite frankly, not to get in this, go down this rabbit hole too far, but what I really thought was wrong with what Kinzinger, Congressman Kinzinger and Cheney did was to participate on a panel where the minority was given no rights. I thought that that was the point in which they should have stood up and said, look, you understand that we are against the president.

We don't like what the president did, but the minority does have rights. And if they want Jim Jordan and Congressman Banks on this committee, that is their right. I wish they would have stood up to that. I would have had a lot more respect for him if they had. And the argument that Nancy Pelosi was making was, well, Jim Jordan doesn't want to find the truth. Jim Jordan doesn't want to find the truth. Jim Jordan doesn't care. And I'm like, well, Jim Jordan still has a right to serve on the committee to actually seek the truth. And he might ask questions that you don't like.

But he has a right as a member, if appointed by Republicans, to actually ask those questions. I served on the sale of baby body parts, that commission, that special committee that we put together. And Democrats put on members who just tried to thwart the whole process. But we allowed them to come on and they tried to thwart the process. But we still got the information out. We still wrote a report. You don't get to say you have to agree with the majority party to serve on the committee. No, the debate actually is a really good thing. And I, I, I, I don't know what Kevin is going to do and I might disagree and I might be a little smaller man than you are, Jason. I think Kevin McCarthy in the majority

should do the very same thing to, um, to Democrats, take them off committees. And I say that because I think that what will happen is if Kevin McCarthy is a bigger man and says, I'm going to treat you with respect in a way that you didn't treat me, when Nancy Pelosi or whoever, Hakeem Jeffries or whoever's the next speaker, they're going to go right back to taking Republicans off committees. Now, the problem with what I'm saying we should do is it totally ruins the institution. It ruins, you know, again, minority rights and again, the ability for parties to work together. I think that happens, but I don't know that you can bring it back, which is why it was so important that you never break the rules in the first place,

because often that happens. I'm saying, and rarely do people do the high road thing, which is what you're advocating for. Yeah, I just hope so. I don't know. Maybe I'm too altruistic and it'll come back and bite again. But I got to believe that the American people will look at that. And look, there are people on the left, there are people on the right, and then there are people in the middle who will can be swayed. And if you take the higher moral ground and you and you say, look, we're going to be the adults in the room, and this is why we're going to do this, and really be good at communicating it, I hope that that resonates and is the tipping point to say, yeah, these people deserve to be in charge here. And I don't know, why should we be afraid to hear a minority point of view? And, you know, when I was chairman, I took the position that when it was your five minutes

of questioning, you can ask them anything you want. You have to live and die with the consequences of what you spend your time on. But I didn't keep them in narrow lanes, you know, saying, oh, you have to ask these questions or you have to ask about that. If we had a witness before a committee and they wanted to ask them about whatever they wanted to ask him about, that's their five minutes. That was my approach to it. And I think that's actually a great chairman, right? And you get a lot of respect from all your colleagues

when you do that. And that's the kind of guy you were, which not all chairmen are like that, Jason, which is why you were so successful in Congress. We'll have more of this conversation after this. Save up to $75 in the Ancestry DNA Cyber Sale, our lowest price of the year. Treat yourself or a loved one to a DNA journey of discovery

at a truly incredible price. Discover your heritage, learn about your ancestors, and make new family connections. But hurry, these savings are only for a very limited time. Visit Ancestry.ca to start your journey today. Offer ends December 3rd. Terms apply. I want to ask you about something else that happened.

And I'm not going to tell you my thought on this, but I want someone to get yours first. So at the State of the Union, Congresswoman Bo Bart from Colorado, when Joe Biden was talking about his son Bo dying, and it was very tragic, his son died from brain cancer. He oftentimes talks about Bo, but Bo Bart yelled out, you know, how about the 13 soldiers that died in Afghanistan, right? And normally there, and I believe in this, there's a level of decorum that the House should have, a level of respect, even if you disagree with the president, that we should

have. So Bobart yells this out and Democrats roundly condemn her. The media, the left-wing media goes after her. Even some Republicans attacked her. What's your take on what she did? goes after her. Even some Republicans attacked her. What's your take on what she did? I'm not going to attack her. I will tell you that generally, I just don't think it's the place of the members of Congress to heckle or speak out at that moment. This is a time for the president to address the nation, to address the Congress. And the decorum and the level of civility I think does matter in this country. It's not a time for showmanship. We've had other experiences where people have yelled stuff out or said something. This got a level of attention that is not proportionate to how the Democrats treated Donald Trump.

I think it was such a different standard. The media just totally ignored how obnoxious the Democrats were. For instance, the president was recognizing, President Trump was recognizing troops that had served, people that had lost their lives, people that were hurt in the field of battle, and the Democrats didn't even stand up. And did that get any attention? No. But I can tell you, and you were there in the hall, on the floor of the House, it was an embarrassment, and it should have gotten some attention as well.

So in theory, Jason, I completely agree with you. I believe in the decorum, and I don't believe anyone should diminish the decorum of the chamber, which was why on January 6th when people went into the chambers, I thought it was disgraceful that they would do that. Right. I mean, I did and I get why people were angry. I get the protest. But going into the chambers was a was a step too far. But here was here's what got me. I was a was a step too far. But here was here's what got me. I'm like one. She brought an issue up that was a good reminder of Americans that Joe Biden wasn't mentioning the 13 men and women who died really at his hand. So that was that was a positive. But as you as you mentioned, Democrats heckled Donald Trump at the State of the Union. union but how about this what did the media say about nancy pelosi standing or sitting behind donald trump after his speech and actually rips up his speech in a role of defiance so disrespectful and they basically applaud her nancy pelosi for ripping up donald's state of the union speech but they attack boart for pointing out that 13 people died

and Joe Biden didn't mention them. Yeah, you bring up a great point. That was a planned little stunt by Nancy Pelosi. She was widely applauded on the left and the national media played it as something cute and funny and did not criticize her. So again, it's a double standard. Like we, you know, as Republicans, you learn to live with the idea that the media is not going to be a fair, honest broker of calling balls and strikes. I think as I left Congress, and I know I've talked to, you know,

Congressman Trey Gowdy about this. I think one of our biggest disappointments, the thing that was illuminating to me, and I know it was to Trey and probably as well, is it was just such a disappointment how the national media was intellectually not curious. They were advocates. And when there was legitimate news, they just did not call balls and strikes. Rare just, rare to none, could I find a reporter who would actually do that. And I think I was complaining to Paul Ryan once when I first got to Congress about how unfair they were. And he was like, listen, suck it up.

They're unfair. Go out there and win. I'm like, oh, I guess it's that simple, right? Don't complain to me. We all deal with it. They're not fair. Glad you come around. I'm like it's exactly that simple right like don't complain to me yeah that we all deal with it they're not yeah glad you come around yeah yeah yeah i'm like okay and actually it was it was actually a great conversation because i'm like okay well i'll just i'll accept that and go out

there and we got to be better um i just you mentioned trey gowdy and uh some people say he's smart some people said he asked good questions maybe but i think his his greatest uh his greatest attribute for his house service was his hair oh just beautiful changing silver fox great you know it was the thing that cracked me up the thing that cracked me up is dad you know being an office dweller we all took showers every day you go down down to the gym. But I could still see Trey Gowdy, flip-flops, long shorts, just a T-shirt, maybe a button-up shirt not tucked in, with a hoodie, like a skull cap on, just slowly sliding in to go take a shower. And then it was always a mystery as to how the hair was going to turn out later that day.

And you just never quite knew the hair was going to turn out later that day and you just never quite knew what you were going to get and it was always wow there was even a website that was created that was like trey gowdy hairstyles is like i don't know it was the craziest thing i could never find the correlation between trey gowdy's hair and what kind of mood he would be in that day usually in a very good mood mick mulvaney on the other hand, if Mick Mulvaney's hair was like patted down nice, he was calm, cool, collective, and rational. If he was getting whipped up and upset about something, his hair was flying all over the place.

He was like this barometer on how Mick Mulvaney was going to be that day. And I'm sure it was the same in the White House when he became the chief of staff. Mick Mulvaney was going to be that day. And I'm sure it was the same in the White House when he became the chief of staff. When I talk to Mick about Trey's hair, I always make the comment, though, that now Mick, Trey does have hair. He's not losing it. And then we move on from the hair conversation. And if you've noticed now that Trey's like, you know, has his own show, you know, Sunday nights with Trey Gowdy. Boy, he is looking a lot dapper.

I'm glad that Mrs. Trey Gowdy is out there dressing him because we didn't get the pleasure of her dressing him in Congress. Not only did most people see the hair, but we had to live with the rest of the outfit that was just, it wasn't always put together.

He had some of the worst ties, I think, of all members of Congress. Oh, my goodness. But we were, our offices were next to each other for the first, I think, four years that we served. And we had a huge class, my 2010 class. He was the first guy I met when I got there. I think I brought a little, one of my babies had just been born, which is like every year I had a new baby being born. But one of them, we were out there with the baby and I met Trey Gowdy and I think he put it in his book, which is kind of true. I'm like, here, take the baby.

I got to go. I was going to do something. And he didn't even know he took the, he took the baby. And I'm like, we were fast, fast friends ever since. No, he's, he is a, he's a great guy. And, you know, there are really good people that serve, but to your point you made at the beginning, as we were chatting, most are really good people, but there is that funny thing. A former member of Congress, when I, when I won my first election, I went and talked to him.

It was a guy named Jim Hanson who served for 22 years. And, and he said, you know, every day you walk on the floor, you're going to get that, just that chill down your spine. And you're going to think, how did I get there? But he said at about six months in, you're going to get just that chill down your spine. And you're going to think, how did I get there? But he said at about six months in, you're going to look around and you're going to think, how did they all get here? I mean, there are some people you think, did anybody actually meet these people? What kind of campaign did they run? Did anybody meet you? Because, no, most are good.

And I think people would be surprised how much time we did spend with democrats breaking bread having dinner you know there were some really good people out there but eating pizza yeah but that's a that's a really good really good point about how you know this it's a montage of america the congress is the yeah 435 people you know we all kind of talk different we all have different accents um different backgrounds there's different people different industries and all these this this unique great country that we come from and they come and represent the the folks uh from their districts and and to get to see them and what matters to them and kind of the

personalities that are you know very very different of the personalities that are, you know, very different than the personalities that we have. It's a really cool thing to experience as well. Wait right there. We'll have more of this conversation next. Two freshly cracked eggs any way you like them. Three strips of naturally smoked bacon and a side of toast. Only $6 at A&W's in Ontario.

Experience A&W's classic breakfast on now. Dine-in only until 11 a.m. I want to get your take. We don't have a whole bunch of time left. I want to get your take on this. So I'm going to ask, I want to get your take on what's happening between Russia and Ukraine and maybe under the umbrella of, I think that the Congress has continually ceded more power to the executive and we willfully do it. We keep giving more power, whether it's through the budget process, we send lump sums of money and allow the president, the president to spend it where the constitution gives us the power and authority to spend money. We kind of give more of that to the president. We give all this authority to the president. We kind of neuter the Congress itself. It's less than a co-equal branch of government oftentimes. Does that come into play at all, do you think, with what's happening with Russia and Ukraine? Should the Congress have a bigger role, a bigger say? Or do you think in crazy times like this, the power just should be in the executive and he should be able to move fast and quick nimbly without the weight of congress around his neck what's your take on that um i don't know the answer to that i actually i actually you know you want a a an executive uh

the commander in chief to be nimble and quick and not have to hesitate um to protect if there is a clear and present danger. But I actually wrote an op-ed for FoxNews.com, and I listed out nine different things that I thought the Congress should be involved in and engaged in. And really quickly, that list is, you know, demanding Europe beef up their security budgets. Donald Trump did the most masterful job in saying, you committed to 2%. You need to fund 2% of your GDP to protect and put that money into NATO. And the Congress should be behind that and supporting that.

Our energy position in the world, which is a big part of the problem that's going on in not only in Europe, but with our NATO allies and Ukraine and Russia. Our energy issues are something that Congress should take the full lead on. Nuclear energy, for instance, supporting the expansion of NATO potentially in Finland and Sweden is something we should talk about. The defense systems, for instance, in Poland, we have, I visited Aegis Ashore, which is a fascinating program where you take the top half of an Aegis class ship and you put it on land as we did in Romania. Maybe we should do that in Poland. Congress plays a role in that. Reassessing the military bases. Robert

O'Brien, the former national security advisor, suggesting that what we should do is move maybe half of our troops out of Germany and move them to places like Poland or Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia. So there's all of those types of things that you can do. And I also think that Congress should be pushing the United Nations. We're the largest funder of the United Nations. They've been feckless. And to have Russia, the head of the Security Council, why isn't Congress out there pounding on the United Nations?

So I think there's a lot Congress can and should be doing. Can I tell you a pet peeve of mine? Just your sparking thoughts for me. What, what, what was so frustrating and again, in this power imbalance, and I think you're right, the Congress has to reassert itself and that takes a bipartisan effort of the Congress to push back on the executive and it might be an executive of your party that you're pushing back on, but it's important to maintain that balance. What was so frustrating to me as a member, I wasn't a chairman of a full committee. I was a subcommittee chairman on financial services. You had the pleasure of being the full committee

chairman. You had a much bigger staff. But what I found so frustrating was oftentimes leadership staff and sometimes even committee staff thought they were more important, that they were smarter, more powerful than members of Congress. But also, if you deal with the executive office, you got staffers who haven't been elected to anything in mid-level spots in the White House, and they think they're more powerful, they're smarter, they're better, more insightful than members of Congress. And again, as a member of Congress, it's really frustrating because no one elected them. They get the power from the elected individuals who

hold those positions. And then they have disrespect, disregard for the other people who are in the body serving. And I don't know if that was your experience or not, but that was mine as I dealt with leadership staff, as I dealt with even President Trump's staff, Obama's staff, Joe Biden's staff. It's a frustrating idea, and I think it shows us, to the points of our conversation, this consolidation of power into the leadership offices in the Congress, but also the shift of power from the Congress to the executive. Well, and the massive 2.2 million person bureaucracy as well. I totally agree with you. If we're going to do term limits, maybe we ought to think about doing term limits for some of these career people that work within the bureaucracy.

Because if you want to see where a lot of power resides, it's right there. And you're right. They think they can just wait you out. And that they don't, and it's not accountable to anybody. They can implement, you know, things that they want to do.

And they just know that if it gets hot in the kitchen, they just keep quiet and stay tuned. And, you know, nothing will happen to them. You'll be gone in four years. They'll still be there. Right. That's I think that's the exact right philosophy, which is which is what's wrong with the government, which is why you have this deep state, which why you can elect new leaders with new visions. And oftentimes they can't implement those visions because there's obstructionists in the bureaucratic class that won't do what the people want through their new executive and through their, and through their, through the ballot box and, you know, through elections. So listen, Jason, I, I gotta tell you what, it was, it was such an honor to

serve with you. You were one of the first members I met. I saw you on TV as I was running a guy who was, who was humble, who slept in his office, but wasn't afraid to share his story with the American people. It's so cool to see now you do that at Fox, whether on your podcast. I don't know if there is one show. Is there any show on Fox that you haven't filled in for? Because you're everywhere all the time.

And it's an honor for me to call your friend. And again, I think it's fun to sit down and talk about kind of what is right in Congress and also what's wrong in Congress, because I don't think a lot of people understand it. So I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Well, listen, I appreciate you and your wife and your family for serving because it's a family affair. And being in Congress is tough because you're away from your family so much. But I'm just glad our paths are crossing again with you and Rachel at Fox. So it's a friendship that I'll continue on in perpetuity, and that makes me happy.

And thanks for your service, and let's keep this discussion going. Because I think the more people know about what's actually going on, the better the questions and the better the candidates that they'll vote for and support. And the better candidates they get. I've got to tell you you the last time i saw you jason you were coming down an elevator at at fox and i was going up and i'm like hey we should get together for a cup a cup pandemics and families and it's like i haven't probably seen the whites of your eyes but for you know on tv for you know a couple years so we will we'll have to do a real cup of coffee at a kitchen table um and uh continue conversation, but thanks for joining me today.

And thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to be at the kitchen table. Thank you. All right. I enjoyed the conversation with Jason. And if you did too, let me know, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you download your podcasts. I hope to see you around the kitchen table next week with my co-host and partner who will be back, Rachel Campos Duffy. Until then, have a great week. Streaming now on Fox Nation. You believe you were sent by God? Yes. An exclusive new series hosted and narrated by Martin Scorsese. you