From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - Why This Surrogacy-Born Child Is Speaking Out Against The Industry

Episode Date: February 23, 2024

Surrogacy has become a common arrangement across the globe, however many ethical concerns surrounding this industry are going largely unnoticed. Sean and Rachel speak with Olivia Maurel, a surrogacy-born child who now speaks out against surrogacy, to discuss how her personal experience has shown her how damaging it can be to all parties involved -- especially the child. Olivia reveals why she believes the arrangement places parents' wants over a baby’s needs, and how becoming a mom has made these beliefs even stronger. Follow Sean & Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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slash rightsizedsavings for full details. Hey, everyone. Welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for this podcast. She's my partner in life. She is Rachel Campos Duffy. You forgot the line. I'm your wife. Did I say you're my wife? No, you didn't decide. She's also my wife, by the way. All right. Well, it's great to be back. Did I say you were my wife?

You said I was your life, but not your wife. Oh, very well. There's been no divorce. be back. I said you were my life. You said you said I was your life, but not your wife. Very well. She is all there's been no divorce. Still, still married, still at the kitchen table. And we have a really interesting story. I'm always interested in in anything surrounding, you know, birth and life and, and infertility and all of these issues that are fast and infertility. All of these things are very fascinating subjects to me as a woman. I was reading the Daily Mail. You know, I love the Daily Mail.

I do know you love the Daily Mail. I love the Daily Mail. And I love when the Daily Mail does stories like this. This is a story about a young woman who was the child, like a child born of surrogacy, who now as an adult is telling the world what that experience is like. And she has come out as an adult advocate against surrogacy based on her own life experience. So I thought it'd be really great to bring her in, kind of lay out her story and lay out her case for why she thinks surrogacy should be banned. She's advocating for a worldwide ban of surrogacy. So with no further ado, let me bring in Olivia. I'm going to say her name the French way, Morelle. Beautiful.

I said it right? Oh, wow. So a couple years of French in high school, and it paid off in this interview. Olivia, welcome. It's wonderful to have you. Let's just start first. Right now, you're a mother, you're married, and you have children yourself, correct? Yes, I am married. I've been married for eight years. I've been with my husband for 10 years, and we have three young children together. What are the ages? Five, four, and two. So they're quite young. Oh, God. That is like the longest I've ever thought.

I know. You are in the swing of kids. She is a brave woman. And I'm sure that this has – yeah, it is. Well, I don't know if you know, Olivia. Sean and I – where are you coming to us from, by the way? Are you in Europe or are you in the States? Oh, I am in France.

I'm actually living in the south of France. You are in France. Again, yes, I am. Oh, sounds nice. I wish we were in France. It sounds nice. So Olivia is French, and she has three children. She's coming to us from Europe.

Olivia, we live in New Jersey. My husband's from Wisconsin. We have nine kids. So we know when we hear – I know, right? We've done it, Olivia. We know exactly. When you say the ages, we've been there. We get it.

Our kids range from 24 to 4 years old. That's my dream, actually. I hope so. It's fun. It's awesome. I have nothing bad to say about it. It is amazing to have that experience. I just want to transfer it to the south of France.

Can we do that, Sean? You can come. I don't have the space, but you could potentially come over and I can have, okay. So let's start from the beginning. How did you find out that you were a child born of surrogacy? Yeah. Tell us your story. Uh, it's a long story, but to make it short, um, I always kind of knew that I didn't fit in with my family. Something was off all of my life. I just kind of like adoptees feel within their families. Just something felt off.

And I never really asked my parents. So that kind of gut feeling kept getting bigger and bigger until I was 17, 18 years old, where I started Googling the town where I was from, because I was born in Louisville, Kentucky, actually. And so I Googled the town and I was like, okay, well, something had to have happened over there. Even if it wasn't like an adoption agency or an IVF clinic or whatever. And I fell on surrogacy and there was a surrogacy agency that was in Kentucky at the time. And so it kind of just like clicked in and the puzzle pieces fit in together. And I just kept telling everyone that I was born from surrogacy from then on.

You didn't confirm it with your parents? Absolutely not. I never confronted my parents you have to understand that we have a huge loyalty conflict with our parents it's kind of like we know we've been bought there's a lot of money that was put into me I cost a lot of money to my parents so I did I felt like I couldn't tell them I couldn't I. I mean, I couldn't. It was impossible because I was scared that they would take it badly. I was scared that they would reject me. I was scared of being abandoned a second time, actually. So I didn't confront them at all.

And I kept telling everyone around me that I was born from surrogacy. So my husband, my friends, my medical my med, my medical teams, when I had my kids, whatever, everyone was around me new, except my parents. And one day, my mother in law, so my husband's wife bought me those DNA kits, you know, my, my heritage DNA kits, your husband's mother, you mean your husband? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, my husband's mother, because she saw me, she saw me in really bad states, in depression. She saw me struggle. She understood how badly I felt.

And yeah, so on my 30th birthday, she was like, okay, Olivia, well, here's the DNA test. Take it, see what happens. And I had no idea that it was going to come back with 0% of French in my blood. That's the first thing. And the second thing is that it came back with a DNA match to a cousin of mine. So yeah. And so I messaged Mike, the cousins from Kentucky, my cousin, no, it's not from Kentucky. Um Actually, I actually have a bit of family on the East Coast, but everywhere. But she, so I messaged her and she confirmed that she might know someone that was used as a surrogate back in the day. And, and she presented my half brother

to me. And then I got presented to my half-sisters. And then my biological mother came and talked to me. So Olivia, explain this to me so I understand surrogacy. I've understood that surrogacy can be a male and a female who fertilize an egg and they find another woman to carry the child for them. That's one scenario. But is there a different scenario where the male can fertilize with the surrogate mother and then have a child in that fashion? Yes, that is called traditional surrogacy. That would be how I was born. So the egg was the egg of my surrogate and the sperm was the sperm of my father. And so it was fertilized and then put it into my surrogate mother, of course. So that's one

scenario. The second scenario is called gestational surrogacy, where we use or the egg of the intended parent or the egg of a donor and the sperm of the intended father or the sperm of a sperm donor that we fertilize and then we put into the surrogate. So those are the two scenarios, traditional surrogacy and gestational surrogacy. Fascinating. And so when you were how old when you finally met your, I guess, your mother, your biological mother? I was 30, and I'm actually 32. So two years ago. So this is pretty recent. What was that like to meet your biological mother?

I mean, that's got to be a wild experience. Someone who is a surrogate, that child comes back, and did you feel a connection? Did you, what was it like? I mean, it was, it was, at the time I, it felt crazy. At the time it felt crazy. At the time I felt really emotional about it. At the time I cried a lot sending her, because I only met her via messenger, Facebook messenger. I didn't meet her in real life because, I in France, she's in America, so I didn't take a plane and go meet her.

But we had exchanges. I needed answers on how her pregnancy went, how my birth went, how our first separation went also, what her favorite color was. I needed answers to a lot of questions that were essential to me and, um, that I didn't have. And so I was incapable of building myself as an adult without those questions answered. Um, and so once I had those questions answered, I felt a little bit more complete, but also sad because you kind

of take a step back and you're like, okay, why, why me? Why, why sell me? Why keep your other children and sell me? And so I felt anger. I felt anger because I didn't understand why she would sell me. And then I felt pity. You know, I just, and then I felt, I mean, and today I'm okay with it. I don't blame her. She said she wanted to give the gift of God and give birth to a child and uh, an infertile couple could have a family. Um, but you know, there, there's always money in the, uh, in the equation. And I do believe that unfortunately she needed the money and, uh, and had me because while she had a paid check in the end. Right. When you, when you came, when you came to know her know her or whatever bit of it that you do know about her,

I've seen stats that say like only 2% of surrogacies are done sort of altruistically with no money involved. The vast, vast, like over 90, 90 some percent are because of money. Was she in a, is your understanding that she was in a financial situation that she, she needed the money? Because that brings up some moral issues that we're going to talk, we're going to unpack a little bit in this podcast. She, I can't speak for her. I mean, I don't know exactly what her life was like, but all I know is that she had four children. She had a fifth one that she had lost, uh, unfortunately, um, prior to my birth. Uh, and this little boy was two and a half years old. Uh, and she was in a mental, well, she wasn't in a very good mental health. You know,

she was, um, she was really sad. She was in, how would I put this? Yeah. She was grieving. Yeah. She was still, she was still grieving her son. So she wasn't in a good position mentally wise.

Um, and financially wise, I do believe that she did, she did need the money. Uh, yes. I know that my brothers and sisters never, they never lacked of anything.

They never lacked of food. They always had, I mean, they always went to school. They always had clothes, but they weren't the family that had a lot of money. They didn't go on family trips, on vacation and all of that. My parents, when they had me, when my biological mother was pregnant, my parents offered them a vacation to Disney World. So, and that's kind of something that my brothers and sisters remember. They remember that Disney trip that they took. They remember going to Disney.

Yeah, they remember going to Disney because, well, because my parents, that possibility for them to go. So yeah, there was money on the French. Do you have siblings on the French side of your family? No, I don't. I'm an only child. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe I missed this. Did, did, have you had this conversation subsequently now with, with your, um, your French parents? Did, have you talked to them about what happened have you gone because obviously you were you you were kind of you thought you were uh a child of surrogacy you told friends but didn't talk to them but now that you've you're you're very public about it you've you've met your biological mother have you talked to your

parents about what happened i have not really talked about it to my parents. No. My mother had me sit down and told me, she finally came out and told me that she wasn't my real mother. Finally. However, we never really sat down and talked about why they did it, how they did it, how it went, how they went about doing it, how they found the agency. It never really happened because unfortunately we don't talk anymore because I came public about it. Yeah. So that's been quite, yeah, it's been painful. Yes. It's been really painful. It's kind of like a second abandonment to be honest. So, yeah. So do they have so many questions? I know you said that you did talk to your biological mother about what the, what the handoff was like. What did she say? So she said, and this is the, this gets me every time. So she said that the first instance, the first moments of my life,

so it was a nurse that took me away. And, you know, they take your baby, they clean the baby, and they usually put it back on you for skin to skin. And, well, for me, they didn't, of course, what they did is they took me away from my mother right at birth they set me on the table and she what she said is that she remembers me as a little baby turning my head and looking at her straight into the eyes and she knew that she couldn't take me in her arms because she felt as if she if she did she wouldn't let me go. So after that, she never held me. I never did skin to skin with her. I was directly put into my intended parents' hands.

So that was a very difficult moment, I think, for her and for me, of course, as a baby, as a newborn. We'll be right back with much more after this. be as a newborn. We'll be right back with much more after this. The housing crisis in the GTA has reached a critical point with more than two in three residents being affected. Reporting that almost nine million Canadians are living in food insecure households. Over one million people in the GTA now live below the poverty line. We're just out today. Mental health support is the number one reason people are calling 211 first at united way we wake up to a different alarm every day help us end poverty and build a better gta any way we can donate today at unitedwaygt.org do you think olivia that so first of all it's it's it's

fascinating to hear this whole thing because i i am a very big proponent of adoption. You know, women who don't want, I mean, I know that women who choose to not abort and then have a baby and give it to somebody else, I think is one of the most selfless things you can do. And so I'm very conflicted in this situation. And I feel like so much compassion for what you went through at the same time. I also can understand as a mother, your French mother's desire to have a child even through this. Do you think that part of the pain that you're going through is that she wasn't honest with you about it? Is there a way to tell a kid that is it better to hide it in the long run is it I mean I know

with adoption there's been you know decades of this discussion of you know do I tell someone and and the conclusion I think has been based on the on the people I know have been adopted is that there's a much there's an age of maturity somewhere you know in the tweens and teens that you can you know the people I know have been adopted is that there's a, there's an age immaturity somewhere, you know, in the tweens and teens that you can, you know, tell, tell a child. Some people say you should tell them right away, but there's an, there's an understanding that not telling them is not the best way that they, they have a right to know that. Um, uh, and what's your feeling on this with surrogacy? I think that breaking a bond

between a mother and a child is what causes trauma, not the lies and not telling. Um, okay. My parents of course never told me because I mean, they, they have their own, they have their reasons. Uh, they didn't tell me because they had the perfect family. They thought everything was going perfectly well. They had the money they had. I mean, they had the perfect lifestyle. They had everything was perfect. So they didn't want to, they didn't want to destroy that by telling me. And, you know, maybe I was going to reject them. They were scared. So I don't blame them at all for not telling me. I don't blame them for the lies. I actually don't blame them at all, to be honest. Even if we don't talk

today, I still love them. However, I do think it's exactly the same thing with adoptees. Even in the most loving and caring of families, we always have that trauma, that primal wound that we talk about with adoptees, the trauma of being separated with our mothers at birth. That's the worst thing that can happen to a newborn. We need them. We need our mothers. We long for them for nine months. We grow in their tummies. We smell them. We feel them feel them, we, we hear them talk. And then once we're out of the womb, we're just separated. And this bond is broken and that is the trauma. That is what causes the trauma. So even if they had told me, uh,

I think that I would have developed, um, unfortunately, mental health issues, unfortunately, maybe alcohol issues, maybe whatever drug issues. I have talked to other surrogate born children and we all fall to the same conclusion. We all are against surrogacy. And we also have suffered from mental health issues, all of us, even if the other surrogate born children, their parents had told them. So I don't think it's the lie that caused my trauma and my problems today. Yeah, it's much more primal. It's biological.

There's so many moral issues that come up when we use science to do things like this. And I think it takes a long time to figure out what truly are the implications and ramifications for what you could argue is a beautiful science to allow a couple, you know, where the wife can't have children, but the man can. And you're like, what a great option for us to have this little baby to bring into our home and to love and care for and nurture and raise as our own. But then you bring up the other side where it's something happens between the bond between a mother and a child. And that separation is traumatic and traumatic from birth. I wonder if that same feeling takes place, even if it is a truly surrogate mother, where it's the egg and sperm of the parents implanted in a surrogate mother, if that same bond breaking

takes place. Have you talked to anyone else that's had that scenario that have that same kind of feelings? Yes. And what I can respond is that baby inside the womb doesn't care about biology. He doesn't care. He's not like, okay, this woman that's carrying me is not my mom. Genetically, we're not linked. No, he's the baby instinctively will bond with the person that's carrying him. That's normal. It's instinctive. It's animal. It's what we're made for. We're made to be with our mothers, with the ones that carried us, with the ones that made us grow. I mean, for me, it's logical.

I understand that for some people it's sad not to have a family, not to – I mean, I really think about people that are infertile, and I feel sorry for these women. I really do. But I do think that we forget that the children have to be in the center of the discussion, not the adults. We have to place the children's needs before the adults' desires. And that's my point of view. Wow. I mean, it used to be that we thought that way. It used to be that we thought that way. But actually, that idea of putting the needs of the child ahead of the desires of the adults is truly a countercultural way of looking at any situation.

Yes. these kinds of values just culturally in so many ways. And so much of what moors that idea, that concept in many ways is faith-based in some ways. It transcends science. There's a spiritual thing we're talking about here in terms of that spiritual connection. How has becoming a mother yourself informed your experience as a surrogate child. It has just gotten me more against surrogacy, I guess, because... Give me an example of something. I don't know if something happened during your pregnancy or in the hospital. Did you know when you had your first child, you knew you were a surrogate child at that point? Is that right? I knew inside of my heart. I didn't know. I didn't have the physical proof yet. I was pregnant of my first child at 26. Okay. And I imagine that that moment you mentioned the skin on skin right after birth, which we have nine kids. It's actually, as a husband, it's really remarkable to actually sit by a bed and watch that moment where the baby comes on the mother's chest or breast.

And I have to imagine even looking back and seeing the experience that you had with your babies must also give some pain to go, I didn't have that same experience with my own mother now and with later knowledge after you've spoken with her. Well, I'll give you an example. When I was pregnant, my first child, Eleanor, she, when I went to the hospital, because I wanted to home birth all my children. I was obsessed with home birthing. I did not want hospitals. I think now I home birthing I did not want hospitals I think now I know why I didn't want hospitals I didn't want uh doctors over I just I wanted to be home with my husband and of course there was a nurse but I just wanted to be by myself and do this by

myself and um but I had to go and uh to a hospital check in that was, it had to be done legal wise. And during our, during my appointments with the doctors, they would be like, oh, well, do you have any diseases in your family? father's side, I don't have anything. But on my mother's side, I don't know, because I'm a surrogate born child. And I at that point in time, I didn't have physical proof. So it was really hard for me as a mother to say to tell myself, like, what am I going to pass on to my children? What kind of diseases did my surrogate mother have? Did she have breast cancer? Did she have, I don't know, did she have a mental health condition? Did she have, and I didn't know what I was passing on to my child, to my girl, to my little baby girl. I had no idea. And I didn't know what 25% of her genes were. And I was scared.

I was scared to death, to be honest. scared. I was scared to death, to be honest. And I think that's the moment in time where my mother-in-law started really picking up on how badly I felt about my situation and how I needed a DNA test to at least give answers to my, my ethnical background, because I had no idea what half of my blood was. You know, it's just so interesting to me how you kind of knew, like, I just, again, we were talking about just the spiritual connection, like who you had, I presume, wonderful parents that you, it sounds like they, you know, tried to give you the best life they could, but you always felt what, like, like not connected to your mom, but you kind of had this idea that

there was somebody else out there. I mean, can you help us understand that? It's really complicated to explain. And I guess a lot of people will not even believe me. But thank God I have my best friend that can attest to it because I've known her since I was seven and she knows she's seen me through all my phases And she's, she's heard me speak about it. My husband has been with me for 10 years. So he's been hearing about it. So I have people to attest to what I've been saying. But yeah, I've I just I never really fit in. I knew there was a difference. I saw my mother and I didn't have this connection with her. I can't. I grew up in a household where financially I lacked of nothing, nothing. I literally had everything I wanted. I went to

the best schools. I had the best cars. I had the best clothes. I had everything was, I mean, financially speaking, I was covered, but emotionally speaking, I did lack of love. I have to admit. I didn't have that bond with my mother. I mean, that you might have Rachel with your children, that special bond you have with your children. questioning myself when I was younger because of that. And my mother was also very, I'm very, she was old and she was really old. So we didn't have that connection yet in the household. So Olivia, obviously you've been, you've been speaking out your, you share your story, which is pretty brave and bold. And so I guess it always begs the question, you're sharing your story publicly. Why? Is it to change public policy? Is it a message that maybe a couple that's thinking about surrogacy might hear your story and go, maybe we should dig deeper. We should look at this and look at all the benefits, but also consequences of surrogacy.

look at this and look at all the benefits, but also consequences of surrogacy. What's the mission in speaking up? Because I love that you're telling your story. It's not only fascinating, but it brings a different perspective to a topic that most people see as, or not everybody, some can see as wonderful. There's a really dark side to this as well. But what's driving the mission? Well, first of all, this mission has cost me a lot. I hope people understand that, that I'm speaking, but it's cost me a lot emotionally speaking. And because I've lost my parents once again, so that's the first thing I want to say. So I'm talking today because, yes, I would like to change people's minds. I would like to show the negative sides of surrogacy. I want to show what people, what

surrogacy really is, because we portray surrogacy as something beautiful, incredible, the answer to all of the infertility problems. But there's a really dark side to it. And we don't talk about it enough. And eventually, well, I recently have been part of the Casablanca Declaration. It's a group of people. And I'm the spokesperson of this group of people. and I'm the spokesperson of this group of people. And we want to create an international convention to abolish surrogacy.

So we're working towards that. And that is why I'm talking today. That's my mission, actually. That's what I want to achieve. I'm so happy that the way this conversation has gone that we started talking about the child side of this, because I think it's the most underappreciated, not talked about aspect of this. The other dark side that's probably more obvious is the fact that this industry is built on the backs of poor women. acute, where they have created laws that are very favorable to those purchasing the surrogacy and disfavor the surrogate mother. That's the preferred situation for a couple entering into an agreement to have a surrogate mother. They want to make sure the laws are on their side and protect them,

often at the expense of the poor woman who is carrying the child. So I've heard all kinds of stuff, Olivia. I've heard of cases where, you know, the poor surrogate woman, you know, ends, you know, in this third world country, has twins, the surrogate, the parents, the purchasing the surrogate children are ecstatic, except it turns out that one of the twins has Down syndrome or some other disease. Then they want you to abort the baby or they leave the poor woman, you know, with the health concerns of the other child. There's all kinds of things that can go wrong. When you look at the mother side of this, the surrogate mother side of this, what kind of information, I'm sure you're getting all kinds of information through your activism. What can you tell us?

Well, that usually it's poor women that are preyed on. That's the number one thing that we can say is that you will never see a rich woman caring for a poor woman. It's always poor women caring for rich women. And that's the problem is that these women, they're not doing it altruistically. There's always money in the game unfortunately even in altruistic surrogacies that we i hate the word there's nothing altruistic in surrogacy but when in altruistic surrogacy there's always um an exchange of expenses i mean um reimbursement of expenses. For example, your mortgage or your, your, your cell phone bills, your, your food, your, I don't know, whatever, everything's covered. So I guess what's better, get everything reimbursed or sleep under a bridge. I mean, some, unfortunately,

you'll have women preferring to be a surrogate and going through nine months of pregnancy, nine month of high risk pregnancy. I want to say again, because surrogacy pregnancies are at higher risk than a normal pregnancy. So Olivia, I served nine years in Congress, in the U.S. Congress. And so I'm always fascinated by the legislative side of this. And I guess, has your group or you personally had contact with your French legislators to talk about what's happening and your push to outlaw surrogacy? What kind of response have you had from governments and legislators in the work that you've done? Any? So in France, none, if you want to know. In France, it's illegal. Surrogacy is illegal. You can go abroad and bring a child back. Okay, that's legal.

Which is what your parents did. Yeah, exactly. That's what my parents did. However, I have not been approached by any legislators in France, of course, because in France, unfortunately, what's happening is that media is so pro-surrogacy that we are slowly going towards the legalization of surrogacy in France. So legislators, they don't want to talk

about it. They just, you know, they want votes. So they're not going to talk about it. And if they have to legalize it to get votes, they will. So in France, I haven't... Do you know the stats on how many European countries, just let's just take your up? No, no, I don't. Illegal versus legal? Okay. No, I don't. I actually don't. And does your organization, okay, so you've talked about the emotional impact for you. What from your, you know, I'm sure you've talked to surrogate mothers and so forth, besides just your own, what happens to a woman when she makes that transaction?

And I've been on YouTube sort of watching some of these videos about the experiences of different women. A lot of these women, it's not just a one-off. They're doing, you know, multiple. And their husbands are becoming, it's a really perverse thing. Like some of the husbands, it seems to me, were starting to depend on their wives carrying other people's children multiple times.

It's sort of like, I don't know, I have to believe it has perverse impact even on the marriage, on the psychological impact of both the husband and the wife who are doing the surrogacy. What can you tell us about that aspect? Well, I guess exactly what you've said. It's kind of, it's some women do it to pay off bills. Some women do it to pay off, for example, I mean, they go to school. They need to go to med school. They have to pay off med school. Some people want to go to nursing school. So they do a surrogacy so they can go to nursing school.

Some do it as a literally like a job, except it's not a job. And their husbands depend on it. There's so many. It's just such a mess, to be honest. It's such a mess to be honest it's such a mess um but i have a lot of surrogate mothers that have come to me and have said how how much they regret it how much they they're saddened by the fact that they feel like they've abandoned a child um we have unfortunately um i mean surrogacy is illegal in France, but we have these women giving birth to children and abandoning them so that they can be given to a family. So it's like a black market of surrogacy. Exactly.

And I have a lot of women that have done it that way that come to me and are like, okay, I regret this. Surrogacy is a horrible thing, and I'm going to fight for my children. So there are a lot of cases in France that are going on so that the surrogate mother can recuperate her child. It's such a mess. It's such a mess. It is a mess. It is. It's a big mess.

Surrogacy is a huge mess. It's a huge ethical mess. That's the whole thing. It's for the woman and the children. You're renting a womb. You're commodifying something that should be sacred, right? So we're literally, I mean, we're talking about human trafficking in a way. You're buying children.

You're selling children. You're renting a womb you're it's just you're yeah and work on work modifying children and women and yeah placing women and children in the center of a contract which is totally insane to me insane i'm i'm fascinated by the fact that you um first of all, this Casablanca agreement is so interesting, but I'm so fascinated by your TikTok account. And I can't see all your videos because a lot of them are in French. They are. I don't understand all of it.

A lot of them. way, you know, I saw these YouTube videos that explained it and sort of gave me an inside view of what some of these third world country women go through, how it's becoming normalized, how the men are depending on it. There's just a lot of things. But your TikTok channel, what's been the response to your TikToks? How has that been a powerful tool for other people to get informed, but maybe even, you know, to go, wow, I didn't realize I was, this was where some of these feelings were going for. I didn't know other people had these, these experiences. My TikTok account has been really powerful in the way that I have been able to meet the people of the casablanca declaration and so i can now um use their tools to talk to a greater

um a greater amount of people a greater audience exactly. Are the majority of the people in that agreement, um, the children are like a child of surrogacy or who makes up this agreement? Who is, who is, who are the people who are advocating for this? The, the CASA Black and white integration are just, they're experts, psychologists, doctors, lawyers, uh, they're everyone, even MPs in some countries. So we've got a lot of people on our side fighting against surrogacy and for a universal treaty to abolish surrogacy. And we are actually going to be in Romeome uh in april for a conference on the subject uh it's going to be really really interesting who's hosting the conference the

the casablanca declaration we are declaration is doing okay yeah yeah yeah yeah we are uh it's i mean we chose italy because italy is the first country that is penalizing the use of surrogacy. So you cannot use surrogacy in Italy and you cannot go somewhere else to use surrogacy. They can't do what your parents did. Exactly. They are the pioneers of what we want happening everywhere in the world. So it's going to be great. It's going to be great. We had the Pope speaking. Oh, because the Pope has come out against it, correct?

Yes, the Pope has come out against it. But I wrote to him a couple weeks ago, asking him to make a statement against surrogacy because, I mean, his word is important. I'm an atheist. I don't believe, I don't believe in God. I don't believe. And I told him that actually in my letter, but I really wanted him to talk about it and for him to take a stance against surrogacy because normally the Catholic church is against it. And I know that a lot of Catholics and Christians use surrogacy. And a couple weeks later, he responded in his speech. So I was actually pretty proud of myself. Yeah, I am too. I'm proud of you too.

Yeah. Do you feel like you're getting traction? I mean, that's an interesting, I mean, that's a little bit of, we of, we call it, we'd call that low hanging fruit because the, I mean, he's the Pope, but the Pope is against it. Um, but do you feel like in more atheistics, you know, secular, um, uh, places, or do you feel like this is getting traction, your, your point of view? Because as the technology is increasing, I mean, we just did a story, Because as the technology is increasing, we just did a story, Olivia, on artificial wombs. And this is going to be around.

I mean, they've had success with lambs up to four months. If we think surrogacy is bad, wait until we have artificial wombs. And they say that's going to happen in five, six years. It will be ready, that technology will be ready, which is why I think what you're talking about, the child side of this, because I think people have talked about, you know, the exploitative third world women side of that. That's so obvious, right? But your story to me is so powerful because we're about to enter into what we call a brave new world where we're going to have artificial wounds. They're going to use infertility and premature babies at all, all to sort of, you know, open the door and, and, and use that wedge of compassion

that we all have for those situations. And I think it's going to be, I mean, we're entering into a transhuman phase. And you were the sort of the first start of this. I know we're going, we're going into a crazy phase where we are going to create a series of mentally ill children. If we do that, I'm going to tell you because what happens in the womb is so important. And I mean, it's the beginning of life. It's the beginning of everything. And if we dehumanize it, how are we going to create normal human beings? I just, I can't wrap my head around it. I just can't. Listen, what you just said is so profound. And frankly, only, this is why I really encourage you with your TikTok and with everything that you're doing. I want you to know, I mean, we're clear across the world. And I could say what you're saying, but I don't have the moral authority that you have from having experienced it and having made really tremendous personal sacrifices in doing so.

And I think the fact that you are an atheist and don't believe actually bolsters your argument even more. I will say this as a theist. I'm a Catholic. Both Sean and I are practicing Catholics. That's why we have nine kids, by the way, Olivia. Well, that's great. You can have nine kids and not be Catholic. It's true. It's true. It's true. But for us, the way I think of it in a spiritual sense, and I think we connect on that level. There's a spiritual level that we're connecting on, Olivia, you and I. But when I think about it in terms of my religion, I mean, if you believe that Jesus is God, as I do, that there is a God, and how did he choose to become a human? He could have just, you know, he could have just appeared as a grown man,

as a king, as whatever. He chose to incarnate himself in the womb of a woman. And so for us as Catholics, there's something very spiritual. And I love the way you phrased that. There's something very special that's happening in the womb, so much so that if you're a theist like I am, that our own God chose to enter into the world through a womb, through a woman. And we are on the verge of severing this. I think, again, what you did is the beginning, but we are moving into artificial wombs and this transhumanism. And boy, you are, you are such a necessary and profound voice in this, in this, in this, in this new battle. We are, we, the problem with, with those new wombs, new artificial wombs is that, well, it's not really my subject because it's, I mean, Well, it's not really my subject because it's, I mean, I really talk about surrogacy, but it is linked because it just, I mean, it just, it deprives the child of all the fundamental bonds that are forged during pregnancy. We begin in the womb of our mothers. We need to hear the voices. We need

to feel the emotions. We need to eat what she's eating. We need to taste. Those are fundamental. For me, it's normal. So to think that little baby human beings are going to be created in artificial wombs is the end of humanity to me, literally. Have you seen the pictures? Olivia, have you seen the pictures of the baby? No, I have not. No, no. And I honestly. You may not want to see it,

but we have seen them. And you see, it's like a vacuum bag. And the little lamb is in there. And you can see through... Imagine like a Ziploc vacuumed clear plastic. So you see the little baby lamb through it. Its heart is beating. It looks like it's vacuum sealed inside of a plastic bag. And the lamb has survived four months. They say that again, the technology says by 2030, it'll be ready for humans. And you can be sure that I suspect it's probably already happening with humans in China. But so this is a huge moral, ethical, bioethics issue. But I think it starts with surrogacy because once we normalize that and remove the experience of the child from the debate, it's just there's no reason not to have an artificial womb. So you are on whether you like it or not, Olivia, you are at the tip of the spear of, I think, really stopping transhumanism. We need to stop it.

We do need to stop it. And we need to start thinking a little bit more, a lot more about the child's perspective. And some might say that some surrogate-born children are okay and they live well and whatever but i do believe that it's we need to hear also the children that have suffered from it um and we need to uh go back to basics uh and to not break the bond between a mother and a child at birth that is that is for, what is the most important. So well said, Olivia. Listen, we are fascinated with your story.

And I would agree with Rachel, the point that social media, there's a lot of ills that come from it. We see that with our own kids. But the beauty of social media, where you're able to tell a story like this and it reaches all different corners of the earth where you're able to share your experience goes to the power of people coming together to go, I want to know more. I want to know the truth. I want to know the good, the bad, and the ugly. And when we look at

the whole picture, the whole mosaic of issues, we do as a society come up with better decisions. And so often there's just one viewpoint that's presented. And you have done a wonderful job of presenting the other side of what it's like to be a child of this. And I'm grateful for your work and coming on our podcast from the kitchen table and sharing your experience, which obviously maybe gets easier over time. But listening to your story, obviously there's a lot of pain around it. There is. And a lot of hurt for speaking out, and we're grateful that you would share that with us because we can't imagine it's easy. Yeah, Olivia, thanks so much.

It's been difficult, but it's okay. By the way, Olivia, as you're doing the podcast, I could hear your kids in the background. I know. We feel right at home. Yeah. That happens to us all the time. My kids are screaming or yelling. Someone's coming in.

So I'm like, wow, I feel right at home. Yeah, my two-year-old is in his no phase in the, you know, what we call the terrible two, but he's just, you know, he's a kid. So yeah, he's been screaming in the background. Sorry for that. We love it. Yeah, it's music to our ears. You sound like a wonderful woman, a wonderful mother.

Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for having me. Yeah, and thanks for lifting the stigma, helping to lift that stigma away from people who oppose surrogacy. I think a lot of them are being smeared as not compassionate and so forth. I think your story is the best story for for for lifting that stigma around those who are fighting against fighting for a ban on surrogacy. So thank you for joining us. Amazing. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thanks. We'll have more of this conversation after this. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly get back. conversation after this. situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most.

Stay in the know. CBC News. So as we talk about our kitchen table, again, I mention this frequently, but sometimes Rachel just comes up with topics and she tells me them over coffee. And this topic with the video, them over coffee. And this topic with the video, I just really thought was fascinating because it's something that I know people do. I know that- What do you mean with the video? With her videos. Oh, with her or TikTok videos. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. And so, but there is a lot of people who are doing it. And at first blush, I would say, a lot of people who are doing it. And at first blush, I would say, this is wonderful that a couple is able to have the joy of a child and the joy of their own child when they weren't able to do it themselves. Right. And I love kids. I love that people want to have kids. They want to have

a family. And that desire is primal, I think. And if you can't do it, I know it's incredibly painful when you have trouble in a marriage with fertility. And here there's science that allows people to actually have that family. And at first blush, it can feel like this is a wonderful thing. Obviously, as Catholics, we dive into a whole other set of ethical issues with fertilized eggs and the selection process. But this brings it to a whole new level

of what does it mean for the child? What pain and anguish does the child go through who is a product of surrogacy? And I never thought about that. I never thought that would become such an issue and that there's a whole group, the Casablanca Declaration, that have come together to go this, that there are problems with it. And you mentioned, I love that she's bringing this to the public. I love that she's sharing her story. Because again, I think better information, being more informed, if you're considering surrogacy, is really important. So you go into it with eyes wide open. You know what you're doing. You know the consequences and potential ramifications from it. Yeah, I think it's so hard. I mean, I think, you know, I even

think about our parents. I mean, they probably feel like, oh, she's so ungrateful. We did all this stuff for her and we, you know, wanted her and yeah. But again, these are, there used to be, we used to have sort of ethical guardrails around science and they just keep getting, you know, pushed and pushed and pushed. And there's always been scientists who've wanted to do sort of Frankenstein type, you know, experiments on, you know. Even fetal stem cell research. Right. And they always justify it. You're right. They always find a way to justify it. And they always try and find that little piece that tugs at your heart. But we keep pushing the boundaries and pushing the boundaries. here we are just, you know, half a decade away from artificial wombs and literally erasing, erasing women and their purpose and, and, and breaking that bond between what it, you know,

between a mother and a child. But, but just as importantly, what she said, she said, I think we're going, really struck me, Sean. She says, I think if we move into artificial wombs, we're going to have a whole generation of really mentally traumatized children. And literally, I think in some ways, we are fundamentally changing the experience of being human, because the experience of being human starts in the womb between that bond. And the way we learn to be human is in the context of a family and it starts in the womb. That's a really good point. So to be human is to bond with people. And if you don't bond with people, and if you don't know how to bond with people, you're like a Ted Kaczynski. Something happens where- Clearly she did learn because she does have kids and lots of adopted kids can do that.

No, this is more about the, this is not about her. This is more about the artificial, the artificial womb thing. That bonding begins at cellular formation, at fertilization. That bonding begins at cellular formation, at fertilization. The bond between the baby and the mother is very real. Yeah. And it grows. And the baby in that bond becomes a lifelong mission where it bonds with their spouse, their own children, their friends, their colleagues or coworkers, their community. All those things happen by bonding, being relational. And you lose that if you go into the artificial womb. I think it's interesting to look at her story, and maybe

I should have asked her this. Obviously, she's had some issues with her parents. There's been some conflict. And she's thought and felt for a while that she was a product of surrogacy. And we're talking about her experience. But I wonder about the experience of her French mother. Yeah, I know. I thought about that a lot. Who couldn't have a baby. Yeah.

And they made this choice. And they had her with a family, a woman out of Kentucky. And then, you know then Olivia comes back to France and maybe there was some mental issues that happened with her, the mom who raised her, that this was a- Some psychological trauma herself. Of this woman's father or her husband and this woman in Kentucky and what that must have done for her. And maybe because she had issues with it, that created a separation between Olivia and her French mom. She has no biological connection to her mother in France. I thought it was interesting when she talked about even those who, it's the wife's egg

and the husband's sperm, and they rent a womb, if you will, and plant it, that even though she's through her work has met people like that, and they also are struggling. And so we're just, we're introducing things that we don't know what the long term impacts are. We're really focused on, as she said, the desires of the adults, which many of them, we can have a lot of compassion and we should have compassion for what those desires are. But they should never supersede the interests of the child. And so I think that's what her message is. It seems like it's bolstered by her own experience of becoming a mother herself. And so anyway, I thought it was a fascinating story. Lots to think about. Well, that's it. It makes you think. It leaves you thinking.

And it's a topic that we don't think about often. No. But it challenges you to think about morality and ethics, but also the human desire to have a child. And this gets very complicated very quickly. And I'm happy that she was willing to tell her story and her side of what impact it had on her. You don't normally get to hear that side. You usually hear the other side. You either hear, again, like some of these exploitative stories of what happens to the surrogate moms, or you hear the happy stories about the couple who had the child. Rarely do we hear from the children themselves in so many of these different arrangements that we hear about these days.

And so that is what's so fascinating. So we hear her story, the story of a child. I can't imagine the stories that come from the actual surrogate mothers and some of the problems that they've been faced with. Yeah. Whether it's a forced abortion or it's, you know, we have twins, like you mentioned. forced abortion or it's, you know, we have twins, like you mentioned, and, you know, the couple will take the healthy twin and leave the unhealthy twin with the surrogate mother. All kinds of issues arise. Can I tell you, there was one that I just read about. It was a gay couple and they had a surrogate and they had some sort of, I guess they try during these agreements,

And they had some sort of, I guess they try during these agreements, they try to anticipate the things that could go wrong. Well, it turns out that this child, they could tell in utero that the child was going to have disabilities. And so the couple, the gay couple said, well, we want her to abort because we don't want this child. And the surrogate mother said, well, no, no, I'm not going to abort. I'll take the child. And because the sperm was one of the gay couple's sperm, they said, no, you have to abort because we don't want our DNA out there. And so there's a big debate about what was, I honestly don't know how it all ended, but just that that was, you know, that that was even in the universe of a conversation was so crazy. And you realize you can have all these agreements, but in the end, you can't anticipate all the different things that can go wrong.

And everything that can happen that keeps normalizing and sort of breaking down yet another bioethic guardrail that we had in our system. And I think we're getting to a point in this brave new world that we're living in. And also because I think there are people across the globe, especially in China and other parts who don't even have to pretend like they have these ethical guardrails. Because they don't. Because they don't. And here we are. And it's crazy. It makes me think it's, we have a lot of frustration with the Pope. We've been vocal about our frustration. Yeah, he's not my favorite Pope. He's not my fave. No, he's not my fave. He's not my fave either. And a lot of evangelicals, other Christians have problems with the pope and so do we. We get you. But it's

interesting. So I'm setting the pope aside for a second. So hear me out, set the pope aside. But the Catholic church has been at the forefront of these ethical human debates, human debates, these moral debates, and one of the greatest organizations to push back on the brave new world. Where is this going to take us? But they were talking about some of the ethical, legal, moral problems that we weren't even thinking about until they arose. They were actually talking about it and thinking about it first. And I'm grateful for the Catholic Church for that. Oh my gosh, I'm not. 2,000 years of history to say, you know what, we are going to lead. And it's harder for the other churches to actually do it like the Catholic Church does. Yes. So can I explain what the Catholic Church does? Because actually, Sean, you and I knew one of the greatest bioethicists um bishop

morlino um he passed away bishop morlino of madison was one of them um so what the church does by the way he was a fabulous cook he was an amazing cook um this bishop morlino but he was a bioethicist and our in the catholic church you know there's a lot of criticism of the catholic church and i get in line um especially lately criticizing a lot of criticism of the Catholic Church and I get in line, especially lately, criticizing a lot of things that have gone wrong in the Catholic Church these days. A lot of things they've been getting wrong.

And a lot of things that they have been getting wrong. But I will say that one of the things that they do, I think to the service of the entire Christian world, is that they invest in priests who are highly educated. I mean, we are talking about the most esteemed, amazing education that these priests have, and they dedicate their lives to studying the bioethics, the science and the ethics and the morality. And truly, as you said, Sean, there are so many wonderful small-town pastors here.

They don't have the depth, the knowledge. Well, no, what I was going to say is they don't even have the infrastructure and the resources to invest in someone to just dedicate their entire life to looking at the ethics in different types of scientific advancements. And the Catholic Church does and has been doing this for centuries. And they continue to do that. And frankly, one of the things that has been the saddest part in seeing the reputation of the church tarnished lately is that this kind of good work and this kind of stuff that it's doing somehow ends up being damaged as the reputation of the church gets damaged. But I will say this is incredible work.

Kudos to the Catholic Church. They've always been at the forefront of bioethics and taking that stand. And you can see even a Marxist liberal pope like Pope Francis, who has disappointed us in so many ways, when it comes to really, truly fundamental things like life, like abortion, like surrogacy, on many of these things, he gets it right because it's so foundational. You're just not even Catholic if you're against this stuff. So the church continues to stand on that. And there are many of these people like Bishop Morlino who sadly passed away. He did pass away. But just this is a kudos to the church. But Bishop Morlino was a bioethicist. And in Madison,

Wisconsin, they were doing stem cell research off of aborted fetuses. And they were at the forefront, which is why they said... Say that again, because I jumped on you. I'm sorry about that. So he was based in Madison. So the University of Wisconsin-Madison was at the forefront of stem cell research using aborted fetuses. And so Bishop Marlena was a bright, shining star, but also one of the smartest guys in this space. And so anyone in the country that could send him, they said, no, we are going to send him to Madison, Wisconsin. He's going to be the church's antidote to these unethical experiments, procedures, and science. And again, he was

close to where so much of this experimentation was happening, right across and science. And again, he was close to where so much of this experimentation was happening right across the street, and he was able to weigh in and see what they were doing. And also, hopefully, through the work that he was doing on campus, as he was the head of the church that was there on campus, the Catholic Church was hopefully able to reach many of these kids who are getting into the science. I mean, again, you can't have ethical science advancements and science and do it ethically if the people entering aren't ethical and moral and grounded. And so it's like input in, input out. I mean, so this is why, Sean, you know, when you talk about the only thing I can influence

is my family. Boy, I mean, it doesn't matter if your kid's going to turn out to be a filmmaker or a doctor or a scientist or a lawyer. The point is at the home, and this really brings this full circle, at the family level, we need to raise children who are deeply rooted in morality and goodness and hopefully faith. And that, again, will allow them to make these kinds of calls when they enter into their profession. And just because you can do something scientifically doesn't mean that you should. And we need people out there thinking through on this. And again, and we also need firsthand experiences like Olivia Morel.

I'm really impressed with you. Olivia Morel. You know, I should just move to the south of France, Sean. I think I have a leg up on this. I'm ready. I'm ready for this. She's ready. She's willing and able to move to the south of France.

Maybe Fox and Friends should do some shows off the south of France. I don't think that's our audience. But I will say. That's probably true. That's not our audience. We're way more Daytona Beach. We're way more Talladega. But I will tell you this.

My couple years in French high school class. Paid off today. It paid off. She said I had a great accent, Olivia. And I'm just going to go with that. Listen, you go. Maybe she was just being generous. Anyway, maybe, maybe.

Wonderful conversation. Thank you to Olivia, Rachel. Great pick on a topic. Thank you, honey. I loved it. Listen, thanks for joining us at the kitchen table. If you like our really hot and heavy topics like surrogacy, which we actually love today, you can rate, review, subscribe to our podcast.

You can always find us at foxnewspodcast.com. Please subscribe. Rachel will tell you, you get a notice every time our podcast drops. We drop Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Friday is our Q&A, which are a lot of fun. Send in your questions, hopefully to Rachel. DM her on Twitter, on X. Yeah. Yeah, perfect.

Awesome. Until next time. Thanks, everybody. Have a good one. Bye. Listen ad-free with a Fox News Podcast Plus subscription on Apple Podcasts. And Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad-free on the Amazon Music app.