From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - Woke Academics Threatening The Future Of America

Episode Date: April 13, 2023

On this episode, Sean and Rachel are joined by the Thomas W. Smith Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, Heather Mac Donald to discuss the problems she sees with American universities, how campuses have become in her view "feminized" and what can be done to amend the education system. Later they talk about her new book When Race Trumps Merit: How the Pursuit of Equity Sacrifices Excellence, Destroys Beauty, and Threatens Lives Then, Rachel is joined by motivational speaker Nicole Cleveland to discuss how she has handled living with Turner Syndrome, a rare chromosomal disorder that impacts females, and to share what she wants people to know about the disorder.  Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Oh, interrupting their playlist to talk about Defying Gravity, are we? That's right, Newton. With a Bronco in Bronco Sport, gravity has met its match. Huh. Maybe that apple hit me a little harder than I thought. Yeah, you should get that checked out. With standard 4x4 capability, Broncos keep going up and up. Now get up to $6,000 in rebates on eligible 2024 Bronco family models. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.ca. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table.

I'm Sean Duffy, along with my co-host for the podcast, my partner in life and my wife, Rachel Campos Duffy. Thank you, Sean. Again, so great to be back at our kitchen table. I'm a little dressed up today just because I went to work early in the morning. I'm back. But in any case, I'm really excited because last weekend, we had a fabulous guest on Fox and Friends and

you know how those segments go. They're like three minutes long. I'm like, we got to have her back. And of course that is Heather McDonald. Let me give you the intro to her. She is the Thomas W. Smith fellow at the Manhattan Institute. She is a New York Times bestselling author. She's a motivational speaker. And she is a wonderful person who talks a lot about defending cops, but also defending men. Later in the show, we're also going to have Nicole Cleveland, who is an advocate for special needs. But first, let's welcome Heather McDonald. Heather, thanks for joining us this morning. Thanks, i've never been described as a as a motivational speaker before and i'm not sure i motivate people i make them angry i don't always have those positive answers that people want because i tend to be a little bit pessimistic but i know you guys are upbeat so we'll make a good tree

about you as you tell the truth and you you speak like it is. Well, that's true. And what motivates me is the idiocy out there. And I can't abide idiocy. So I do have to keep speaking. And we appreciate that. And by the way, I'm a little pessimistic to Heather, with all these things that you talk about are the things I think about as well. And I think it's going to degrade and devolve our society. And so with that, why don't you just talk to us about what is the great feminization of the American university and what's its impact? Well, you can see it most obviously in the who's leading universities today. The Ivy League universities, 75 percent of them now have female heads. When you look at the top 20 universities, nearly half have female heads. When you look at the top 20 universities, nearly half have female heads.

The campus administration, which is where the real rot has been accelerating over the last few years, is two-thirds female now. And the student body, whether it's undergraduates or graduate students, are also majority females. That's been going on for the last 30 to 40 years with enormous consequences, both for the quality of learning and the way in universities and the way universities think about themselves, but also the real world.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because everything starts at the university level and sort of, you know, we used to think, oh, well, it's just the crazy universities. It's all there and it'll just stay that way over there in this little confined space. But it has bled out into the rest of society. I was actually thinking about you today, Heather, because I love the Daily Mail and I'm not embarrassed to say that. It's like the first thing I read in the morning because it's so fun. And they had a great story about, what do you think?

It's Harry and Meghan. While we're trying to get the royal news, well, it turns out that Harry and Meghan, they have a foundation, Archul, and they are now funding and co-partnering with a group called Global Boyhood. and co-partnering with a group called Global Boyhood. And what Global Boyhood does is it goes into schools and it teaches kids in partnership with the schools on toxic masculinity. They want to get rid of words or sayings or phrases. They want to feminize boys in essence.

Boys will be boys. Right, exactly. And they said gender is gender ideas are are very fluid so this is the kind of stuff that's making it its way into the culture into the into elementary schools as well but you're saying it starts really at the university level well it is simultaneous there no question, but universities have been the breeding grounds for the type of hatred that now pervades our culture, and basically it's over for straight white males. You guys are not going to be judged based on your merits any longer. You're going to be the final thing that

anybody thinks about in deciding who gets to run law firms or symphony orchestras or art museums, science labs. I mean, science to the utter destruction of progress, is now being governed by identity considerations. You have the federal government doling out grants for research in neurology and Alzheimer's disease and saying we have to have gender equality and racial equality in how we put our research money out, regardless of whether these are the most qualified scientists to try to understand and cure Alzheimer's or Parkinson's disease. that identity defined in the most trivial way as, you know, the most important thing about me is allegedly that I'm female or that I'm white or that the important thing about you may be that you're Asian or what's between your legs. That is a very constricting view of humanity. What's important is what we accomplish, what we love, what motivates us, whether it's classical music or jazz or the Great American Songbook or drawing or Tiepolo,

and things that we have learned to do, whether it's play chess or build a cabinet, be able to understand mathematical equations. None of that matters anymore. In the university, what matters is are you the right sex and the right race. So you said, and again, I don't know that these two things are related. Maybe they are. That's kind of part of my question. But you've talked about how there's an equality of men and women leading higher education, or if in the elite institutions, there's 75, 25% more women than men, and it's had an impact on education. What impact on education has this had in the university system? What's going on?

What's fomenting in the university system that's having such a big impact on American culture? in the university system that's having such a big impact on American culture? The whole idea that there is risk and threat on college campuses, the language on college campuses today is very weird, Sean. You hear about trauma, about exclusion, about being unsafe, which is a completely fantastical rhetoric. There is no safer place, there is no more tolerant place, at least if you're not a conservative, in human history than an American college campus. It welcomes, it celebrates, it puts on the top of the totem pole history's traditionally marginalized groups. But contrary to that reality, colleges are living a fiction, which is that to be a female or to be an underrepresented minority on a college campus is to live under a constant threat of violence and hatred.

Again, fiction, fiction, fiction. But based on those fictions, you now have the overwhelming drive to shut down non-conforming speech. So if you step on a college campus, as I have done, to argue that we are not living through an epidemic of racially biased police shootings of black men, that when you look at the facts, you see that the police are simply going where crime is happening in order to save black victims' lives, and that does bring them into greater contact with black criminals, contact with black criminals and the police cannot save black lives without interacting more intensively in black neighborhoods, that's not racism. If you say that on a college campus, you will be silenced, as I have been. Because the idea is that to merely express ideas that contradict the reigning ideology, which is that America is endemically racist, is endemically sexist, that that is hate speech. And the next step is that hate speech is not protected by any sort of constitutional principle or by any principle of free speech. And this is a female reaction. Poll after poll show,

whether you're asking college professors, whether you're asking college students, or whether you're asking adults in the U.S. population, that males and females differ greatly in their support for ideas of academic freedom, for the pursuit of knowledge, or for issues of alleged safety and belonging. Males, on average, place much higher priority on the pursuit of truth, the ability to pursue research no matter where it ends up, even if it has results which are viewed as threatening to equity. And females, on average, place much greater value on so-called social justice or making people feel comfortable or making them feel that they belong or that they're included. And they are willing to shut down free speech in favor of those alleged values. So this has a very big impact on the future of whether American college campuses are going to

be able to pursue lines of scientific research that may not conform to our equity agenda. Yeah. So the way that it manifests itself, and we have children that are in college and we have one that went to the University of Chicago, the way that this feminization of academia has manifested itself in a very real way came to life during COVID. So, you know, you have these giant bureaucracies that are built by many of them, you know, these female presidents who want to find a bureaucratic answer to every single person's, you know, problem on campus. So you have these giant bureaucracies and, uh, you know, during COVID it felt like, yes, my daughter, I mean, she felt like she was on a prison and there was just, it felt in her view, very communistic. Um, you know, people were turning each other in for violating, um, you know,

COVID mandate rules. And there was just this, she just said that it felt very oppressive. And of course, that the bureaucracy is also going to raise the cost of college, which is a whole other issue, Heather. Oh, it's absolutely nauseating, Rachel. You have these tuitions that are just obscene, $50,000, $60,000, $70,000, when you count everything else in, $80,000, $90,000. And how are people supposed to pay that? And yet these colleges are left-wing in their economics. They do believe that there's something inherently suspect in capitalism, that we need government to make our decisions for us. we need government to make our decisions for us. They put out this left-wing ideology at the same time that they are depending on a free market economy to be able to make parents wealthy enough to be able to afford these tuitions.

Or then they say, well, the only possible solution for our massive tuition is government loans. So the average taxpayer who may not be going to Wellesley or Barnard or Amherst or Bowdoin is supposed to pony up for students. the reason for our obscene tuitions is because our bureaucracy keeps growing with these phony sinecures dedicated to diversity, equity, and belonging. And your daughter, she didn't simply feel oppressed. I'm sorry, she was oppressed. She was. Yes, I agree. She will say the same thing, Heather. Absolutely. So Heather, this is, and I've given this stat several times. I mean, it's not a stat, it's an observation. So we have a lot of kids and we've had a chance to go through a number of different graduations of our children. We have nine kids, Heather. So I've been through a lot. But what we notice is during the award ceremony, you know, those who are getting honors, Invariably, it is 80 to 90% girls versus boys. And

I'm not, I'm not opposed to girls doing well. Yeah. But at some point, I'm hearing about the boys being toxic. I'm hearing about the boys, you know, are the only ones who succeed. But my own eyes are telling me something completely different in what I'm watching. And maybe you can talk to me about what's happening in the school system where boys actually aren't, they used to, they used to excel and girls didn't so much. And so I think we had to rethink how do we educate everybody, but instead of doing everybody, we said, well, no, now we have to suppress boys to elevate girls. And I think that's a complete mistake, but our boys are now suffering. Absolutely. And this has been noticed for decades now, the war on boys. Everything that boys, on average, need to excel has been deemed out of bounds in school. So you've

got to get rid of competition. You have to get rid of any kind of hierarchy of accomplishment. You have to get rid of any kind of hierarchy of accomplishment. And the messages that are being sent, I get so frustrated when I read the next foundation-inspired initiative. You know, so Ford Foundation or Rockefeller Foundation or the federal government or your state and city governments put massive amounts of money into these ridiculous girls who code programs. Yes, I know. More girls into STEM. We celebrate girls in STEM. There is nothing that celebrates male accomplishment, nothing.

And, of course, if you have an all-girl, all-female club in New York City, that's still okay, but all-male clubs must be dismantled. The Boy Scouts, of course, is now repudiated being Boy Scouts, and we've had a war on Boy Scouts on completely ridiculous gay-related grounds. All the institutions that used to cultivate male virtue, chivalry, accomplishment, heroism, courage, have all been undone or discredited. And boys, if I were a boy, I'd look around and say, well, nobody wants me to succeed. If I succeed, I will be viewed. My success now is inevitably viewed as illegitimate. Any male who gets to the top will be seen as taking the place of a more qualified female, which is not true. But I have watched science organization after science organization announce, there was a,

the American Society of Scientists had a award they were going to give. The three finalists were all male. This was in the field of the study of snow and ice in geology. And they decided we're canceling the award. If the finalists that have been chosen on meritocratic grounds, nobody said these were not the most qualified scientists in this field of studying snow and ice. If they're all male, we're not going to give it to them, even though they're most qualified. That's what's going on. Wow.

I mean, it's just, it's absolutely incredible. And I mean, we need to talk about what impact that has on boys' self-esteem because they're being constantly told that, you know, they're toxic, that their, you know, their presence is threatening. I mean, what does that do to them? We're seeing, for example, decreases in their, you know, going on and finishing college education. We're seeing higher rates of that. I'm going to tell you a story that, because I think this is really bad for girls, Heather.

I think this is really bad for women. And women, you know, no matter how liberal they are, eventually want to get married and find a good man. And if we're not raising up good men in these values that you talked about, chivalry and, you know, confidence and courage, I mean, that's who girls want to marry. And I was my, so we, as I told you, we had nine

kids. So we've made, we've had a lot of do-overs when it comes to the education department. So the first one went to the University of Chicago. By the third one, we figured out, okay, we're not doing that anymore. We're going to give you a list of kids, a list of schools that you can go to and you can pick. So she picked among our very, very short list, Heather, she picked the University of Dallas. And on Valentine's Day at the University of Dallas, all of the boys at University of Dallas make a Valentine's Day meal for all of the girls. And she loved it. She thought it was such an amazing gesture for, you know, just in general. I thought this would never happen at any other university other than Dallas, Hillsdale, a few, you know, a handful.

So the University of Dallas is a Catholic classical education. We're going back to the 1950s kind of education, like a traditional. But that's what the girls want. I mean, all the girls loved it. And so this isn't just hurting boys, Heather. I think this is hurting girls and it's hurting the most important part of their life, which is their personal life, their romantic life, their future as married people. Well, we hear about, again, this widespread trauma on college campuses. We've heard less in the last 10 years or five years or so about the alleged campus rape epidemic because trans has taken everything over.

But I used to write about this. And so, you know, we would hear that one in every four, one in every five females in college have been the victims of sexual assault. That's a BS number. It is completely fictional. If that was a reality, there would have been a stampede to create more girls schools years ago to protect women from a level of sexual assault that is unmatched even in the worst African civil wars. What is going on, Rachel and Sean, is this idea that there's no difference between males and females in their desire for connection, culture yes on college campuses that's premised on the idea that the male and female libidos are identical they are not this is one instance where males actually have a better thing now going on college campuses because in general if they do court or try to woo a female, that's viewed as too, you know, masculinist and hierarchical. So instead, you have this drunken hookup culture.

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So, Heather, I'm going to tell you what. You have confirmed why I'm so depressed about America. You are not a motivational speaker. But you are a truth teller. Yeah, you are. So, again, my concern for the country is we have, and again, it's a term that people don't even know how to define, but this wokeism that's happened in K through 12, pushing all these ideologies on our children that are usually leftist ideologies. We have a social contract with the school system and the state to say, we'll pay our taxes and you can teach our kids math, science, English, history. They've taken that goodwill of the people and said, now we're actually going to forget

those things. We're going to actually indoctrinate them in our political ideology. And they've been very successful. And then those kids go on to college campuses and it only gets more aggressive, the indoctrination. And they come out and we saw at Stanford University Law School, where they shouted down the federal judge who came to speak, which was outrageous. These are future judges. These are future prosecutors. It's happening in our business communities.

And I look at, again, as more of us old people die and more of these young college kids come out and take over the country, I don't know how we survive this. How does freedom exist? How does free debate exist? How do we respect people who have different opinions from us and have a conversation and maybe not come to agreement, but come to an understanding of why you might think this. I disagree with you, but you're not crazy. I see why you believe what you believe. And there's a bond that happens when you have that conversation. How do we get, how do we, how do we fix this? Is there any hope to make a change of, of course, so that our country isn't doomed into a leftist, Marxist, communist future.

I mean, by the way, I just want to add, Heather, I think it's one of the first steps is what you just did in this book. When does it come out, Heather? April, but it's available for pre-order now. It's up on Amazon, so you can order it. Give us the name and the full subtitle on it as well so people can get it. Because I think this is the best first step, is identifying the problem. Well, the subtitle, I'm not, it's very long, but the easy title is When Race Trumps Merit. And it's, you know, how the pursuit of equity destroys excellence and puts our science progress at risk and destroys civilization. I can't quite remember the subtitle. But when Rachel Trump's merit is the idea and it's all about this idea

that any standard that has a disparate impact on above all blacks but other underrepresented minorities as well is... I'm ordering your book right now as you're talking to me. Rachel's tapping me like, put your phone down. I'm like, no, I'm ordering the book. I don't want to forget to

order her book right now. Sorry. You got like, no, I'm ordering the book. I don't want to forget to order her book right now. Sorry. You got it. Okay. Okay, so that's the first step. The first step is identifying the problem. Tell me the name again of the book. When Race Trumps Merit.

Right. When Race Trumps Merit. When Race Trumps Merit. Okay, so now we get your book. We get sort of fully convinced that we're not crazy and this is happening, um, to, to America and, and frankly to the world, because like I said, the stuff that's happening in the British school system, I'm sure it's happening here that we have the same kinds of, of projects going on in, in public schools around our country.

Where's the hope? How do we change it? Well, I just gave you $26, Heather. I pre-ordered right now. Okay, well, in the short form of the book is we have to stop being scared. We have to stop allowing ourselves to be silenced by the charge of racism. We have to say standards that are colorblind, that are applied in a neutral fashion, are not racist if they have a disparate impact on blacks. The problem is not the standards. The problem is the academic achievement gap, which I outline in the book.

I give you the facts of how far behind, sadly, this is a very difficult thing to talk about, Rachel and Sean, but if they're going to continue accusing America of being racist because of disparate impact, we have to be willing to say, no, here's the facts about the academic skills gap. When you have 66% of black 12th graders not even possessing partial mastery of 12th grade math skills. 66% do not have partial mastery of basic 12th grade math skills, which means arithmetical calculations and being able to read a linear relationship on a graph. 66% aren't even partially able to do that. You know what's racist, Heather, is the fact that that's happening.

The fact that our system, whatever, the public school system is failing blacks and minorities. I'm sure the numbers aren't that far off, probably for Hispanics. And also, we're not telling the truth about the minority groups that are succeeding. There seems to be, you know, that Asian families, Asian kids are being discriminated. And we could actually look at what's going on in the Asian family and with their, their child rearing and learn something from that. The Indian family as well. Indian families as well. South and Southeast Asian. I had an amazing experience this weekend at a party, and I was talking in general about these facts and said, I've proposed years ago a thought experiment, that if blacks acted like Asians for 10 or 15 years in all things related to academic success. That is, the parents carefully monitored their child's school attendance. Is he doing his homework?

What is he getting on his tests? Is he attending school, not being truant? Is he not involved in gangs and drugs? And students actually took their textbooks home and studied and didn't beat up their teacher or sit in class with their headphones on. If blacks emulated Asian parenting and academic practices for 10 or 15 years and we still saw socioeconomic disparities, then I will consider systemic racism as the explanation. But right now, when those behavioral gaps are so great,

it is wildly premature to say the only allowable explanation is systemic racism. So I made this proposition at a Manhattan party, and the woman I was talking to absolutely flipped out. It turns out she was a social worker and she was like shouting, no, no, no, no, you cannot say that. You cannot. Her position was you cannot hold blacks to the same standards as everybody else. You cannot do that. to the same standards as everybody else. You cannot do that. Slavery is just too important. You can't. And it was so threatening to her worldview to hear the possibility that there might be

an expectation of some basic behavioral and parenting standards. And so, as you say, Rachel, it is extraordinarily paternalistic and condescending. Yes. And it is extraordinarily paternalistic and condescending. Yes. And it is also totally dysfunctional because at this point, we, the so-called American public, has done everything it knows how to do for 50 or 60 years. Yes, of course, the schools can and must be improved.

We have to increase teacher qualifications, capabilities, and that means not hiring by race. We're at cross purposes because we keep saying, oh, well, black students can't learn unless they have a black teacher. Well, sorry, the academic skills gap happens in ed schools as well. So if you hire black teachers on average, you're going to have less academically qualified teachers. And they're not going to be the ones that are going to be able to pull these kids up. But we've done that. At this point, it's for the black family to change. It's up to that culture to change itself. And as long as we say, we're going to always give you double standards and you're not going to have to meet the standards that everybody else meets, there will be no progress.

And what happens when there's no progress, as we're seeing today, every American civilizational institution is coming down. If we don't stop this disparate impact this is what my husband i'm telling you heather sean has been saying this for so long that he said not having the best people at the top um whoever they are whatever race they are whatever gender and sexual orientation they are not having the best by the way, China is doing the very best, we're going to suffer. Heather, when I was in Congress, I had, again, I had Asian, Mexican, African-American, gay, straight. I was a rainbow flag in my office. Yeah, you were the Benetton office. And I didn't hire anybody on any of those qualifications

of their race or their sexual preference. I hired the best people. And they happened to be these different folks that I hired. And what frustrates me is if we look at, to your point, just equity, and if it's only equity, we're not saying let's excel, right? Let's go, let's go with to the highest common denominator. We're now saying, let's actually bring accomplishment and achievement to the lowest common denominator. And that's in whether that's in sports, whether that's in schools, whether that's in sports, we don't see that, right? That's the one space where, where it doesn't matter what your race is well in pro sports but but in elementary schools we don't keep score anymore there's we don't say who won and who

lost true there's so that's what i was referring to but um again i'm i'm fearful for corporate america i want to see the the best people rising and then banks as well we saw with silicon valley they didn't have good bankers, good business people on their boards. They had folks who had specialties in DEI and equality and ESG as opposed to I know how to run a bank. I know how to assess risk. And so I'm fearful, again, as China strives for excellence, we strive for equity. Well, China is looking for its best math and science talent. It has exams, and it finds the students with the most potential,

and it throws everything it's got at them to make sure that they develop their talent. China is already way ahead of us in a whole series of nanotechnologies, in other types of computing, in math. Here's what we do. We destroy our gifted and talented program because they don't have enough blacks and Hispanics in them. So we would rather drag down those high-achieving students, if they're white and Asian, and say, we're going to make you wait to learn calculus.

We're going to make you wait three years to learn calculus, even though you're ready for it in grade nine. And if we give it to you in grade nine, you're going to zoom ahead. And by the time you graduate high school, you're going to be doing graduate level math and computation and maybe physics. We're going to say, we're not going to give you that training because the results worry us when it comes to racial outcomes. Well, Virginia, do you remember Heather? They had, they hid, they had the honor student, there was like some national honor awards and they said, and they hid the results because they didn't want other people to feel bad. I mean, that's sort of what we're doing. And it is troubling in every field. And we're seeing people saying, well, I only want a doctor who's the same race

as me. We're seeing medical schools not bringing in the best and the brightest. It's going to impact us personally, physically. Well, it's national security. When we have great high schools or great colleges that are that are cultivating the best minds in these spaces which is not my mind heather i that's not me i can't do that stuff but i love that my country would facilitate and push the greatest minds because i know that technology is the way to national security today but also in the future and that we shut that down is a national security insanity i mean yeah i was gonna hate america to to have these policies

one wonders like what really do they believe it to me it's so obvious of course you want if you're gonna if you think that you're gonna cure cancer al Alzheimer's disease. You've got to have the top minds there. These are extraordinarily complicated problems. If you want to, let's say, fight so-called climate change, you want the best minds developing forces of electrical energy or clean energy that can transcend physical limits. You know, let's figure out fusion. Let's figure out fission in a way that is doable physical limits. You know, let's figure out fusion, let's figure out fission

in a way that is doable and scalable. You can't do that with mediocre or average minds. You need the absolute cutting edge. And yet they will again and again say they are turning their backs on top talent and choosing on the basis of sex and race. So what are they thinking? And the only thing I can think of is that it is so profoundly nihilistic that they actually don't believe that our tests of merit are valid or that there's any such thing as excellence. I think you hear a

lot in ed schools and now in undergraduate science teaching that, well, everybody can do science or math. We're all gifted. We're just gifted in different ways. And that's BS. I mean, there are real differences in intelligence, in scientific skills, in math, in ability to analyze problems, there are real differences. Some people are at the top, some people are at the bottom. And here's the other problem. If you look at the very, very top of math skills,

males predominate just as they predominate at the very lowest end of math skills. And when you're saying that you cannot promote males in high-tech science fields because they're too male, you are also, again, destroying our capacity to push our talent forward. And again, I do not care as a female if a female solves Alzheimer's disease. I really don't care. I don't either. Alzheimer's disease. I really don't care. And I also do not need a female in order to feel that I can succeed in a field. The idea of female mentorship is such BS. It is a mark of cowardice and a mark of somebody who is just a sheep that can only follow somebody else. How about as a female, I say, I want to be a physicist because Einstein was, not because,

you know, Mrs. Einstein was. No, I'm going to choose my role models based on what they have accomplished and not whether I see myself reflected in them as the ridiculous diversity model. I'm going to challenge you for one area, one small area where I will put my foot down and I've done it both ways and I prefer female. I've had nine kids. I do prefer female over to my ends. So I'm just going to say, I feel more comfortable and I have a better labor and delivery process with a female. But if there's a problem and things that you don't care... I want the best one. That's fair enough. But in any case, you get the point, Heather. I think you get what I'm saying. I mean, that is an interesting question. And the ob-gyn field right now is massively female um i still

have a male and um you know we now have the practice of having a female in an examining room you know the attendant just in case right for all sorts of doctors but um again, I completely understand that sense. And you're the expert. I am the expert in this. I'm the motivational speaker on this one. Heather, listen, I want to thank you for coming on our podcast. You know what? You're saying things that most people won't say. And you're speaking from the heart and research.

And so much of it resonates with my own life experiences. And I say this a lot, but I think when people won't let the – Rachel says this – they won't let the lie pass through their lips. They're going to speak truthfully. I think that encourages other people to have courage and stand up and speak the truth. courage and stand up and speak the truth. And again, have compassion, but be really honest about what's happening and what kind of country we want to have that, again, goes back to equality of opportunity and letting everyone, you know, fight in the same game and rise up. And you might have some scientists, you might have some artists, you might have some who have really great social intelligence, and they may be motivational. If that's a topic we have to.

But I think this is a really important conversation if we're going to save America. Yeah. We have to rethink the way we are engaging young minds and how they can rise up based on America. And I also think, to steal a phrase from the liberals, I think it's anti-racist what you're saying. I think it's the opposite of racism because if we lay the problem out very clearly and we talk about things as they are and not as we think about them in some theoretical academic world where, you know, equity exists or whatever, we can actually see where are these gaps? Where are black and Hispanic children being failed? Is it the fatherlessness?

Is it that their schools suck? Is it that the teachers that end up in those schools are awful? What is it? And let's get to the bottom of it. And ultimately, we can all rise as a country. And so I really resent the pushback that you've gotten and a lot of the abuse that you've taken. I know what you have received.

I get it as well, but on a different scale. But I will say you do give people courage. And we really thank you for joining us on this podcast. We encourage everyone to get your book, to get more steeped in it, to get more information, to be armed with the facts. And so, of course, that book is when race trumps merit it's already available for pre-sale on Amazon I just bought it today Heather McDonald thank you for joining us on the podcast and the kitchen table

really a wonderful conversation Rachel and Sean I so appreciate being on and I hope to see you in your actual kitchen one day thank you so much I love the olive oil in the back we cook for you thanks Heather thank you bye bye wait right there we're going to have more of that you so much. I love the olive oil in the back. Thanks, Heather. Thank you. Bye-bye. Wait right there. We're going to have more of that conversation next.

Save up to $75 in the Ancestry DNA Cyber Sale, our lowest price of the year. Treat yourself or a loved one to a DNA journey of discovery at a truly incredible price. Discover your heritage, learn about your ancestors, and make new family connections. But hurry, these savings are only for a very limited time. Visit Ancestry.ca to start your journey today. Offer ends December 3rd. Terms apply. We are back with Nicole Cleveland. She is a lifelong Iowan and she was born with Turner syndrome, which I've been wanting to get her on my show for a while because I want to talk about what that is. It's a chromosomal thing that happens to people when they're born. They're born with this. It's genetic. And I wanted to explain it and kind of demystify it because interestingly, well,

let me welcome you in. Nicole, how are you? I'm good. How are you, Rachel? Thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy to have you. You reached out to me and literally a week after I sort of met you virtually online, a friend of mine had a diagnosis that she was going to have a baby with Turner's and she actually ended up losing that baby. So I want to talk to you about it because a very high percentage of people who, you know, babies who have Turner's aren't able to make it to term. I want you to talk to us first. What is Turner's?

Well, like you said, Turner's syndrome is a rare genetic disorder that only impacts females. About 80,000 women in the United States are diagnosed. The average age of diagnosis is about nine years old. It affects females in different ways, short statured, unable to have children, unfortunately, cardiovascular issues, lung issues, kidney issues, it's a mile long list. And 98% of those that are diagnosed via like antiosynthesis are miscarried, or they miscarry. Only about 2% survived a full term. So how many people with Turner's are alive today? Do you have a general idea? Well, 80,000 in the United States alone, but it's so rare that a lot of people aren't diagnosed. So it's hard to get an equivalent of that number of those who are diagnosed. So you're saying there are people that are born with turners and have no idea they have turners?

Correct. Yeah, they could wait until they're trying to conceive a child even. And then when they go get testing, that's when they find out. Because basically nine years old. So basically other than being shorter and, and having a few, like I saw that there was, you know, maybe some kidney stuff, um, uh, some higher blood pressure, thyroid functions could be, could be off. Other than that, you can't physically tell that somebody has turners other than maybe their height. Correct. Yes. And it's hard to diagnose because there's some physical features like the short statured web neck. But other than that, it's kind of hard to diagnose until you do further testing. Tell me about the neck. I didn't understand what you just said there.

Oh, sorry. Web neck, like the neck is a little wider. It's wider. Like those with Down syndrome, that's common with chromosomal disorders. Okay. I'm looking at you right now, and so I can see that, but it doesn't take away from your beauty, I'll tell you that. And so basically, every female is born with two X chromosomes, but if you have turners, then one of those chromosomes is either missing or abnormal. Is that correct? Yes. And because it's chromosomal, there's no cure for it. So

there's nothing that can be done, correct? Right. And you just have to get treatment when the symptoms of it present itself. Like me, I'm in my 30s and I was just diagnosed with hypertension and thyroid issues. And I had been tested since I've been an infant, but I just now presented those issues. So they could present themselves in later life. So if a woman was having a baby, so this is now she's have a baby. It's one of the ones that survived, you know, no miscarriage, wasn't lost, is born. Would that baby present with that wider neck as you're talking about? So that would be a telltale sign or when they're just born, you can't really tell that feature. Sometimes that is a telltale sign. That's actually one of the signs of the doctor

kind of looked at me and said, I think we need to do some testing. So they did what's called a karyotype test, which I'm sure you're familiar with. They did a karyotype test and sent it to, I'm in rural Iowa. So they sent it to Omaha Children's Medical Center to get the definitive diagnosis. And about a week later, I was officially diagnosed with Mosaic Turner Syndrome, which is where one of my chromosomes is tightly abnormal. So with Down syndrome, which is also a chromosomal abnormality, they, you know, 90% of those that are diagnosed with Down syndrome in utero in the United States are aborted. And then in countries like Iceland and Europe, especially northern Europe,

where abortion is not as stigmatized as it is in other countries, but also there's really aggressive prenatal tests done, prenatal diagnoses. aggressive prenatal test on, so, you know, prenatal diagnosis. So people get that diagnosis and they're very culturally pressured to abort. Do we know that that's happening with turners as well? I've had heard cases of that where they are encouraged to do that. I was very fortunate that my parents were diagnosed, or I was diagnosed before my parents could make that that. I was very fortunate that my parents were diagnosed, or I was diagnosed before my parents could make that decision. I was born with it, bless, but my parents would never have made that decision. That was not clear. But my mom did miscarry before I was born. And they said it's highly common where the rainbow baby, as they so say, is usually at higher risk for having Turner syndrome.

Oh, interesting. With 1% being able survival rate, it is scary for, like you said, 99% of those with Down syndrome are aborted. I think that's common with Turner syndrome as well. I'm very fortunate to have worked with my congressman, Randy Feastra, he sponsored a bill last year, introduced it in February last year to call Protect Girls with Turner Syndrome Act, which was exactly designed to help that issue where they did not want to have Turner Syndrome be a sole reason for an abortion. Yeah. I mean, we talk so much about protecting women and girls and women's rights.

And here, you know, you have someone who's born with just a different situation chromosomally, and then they're sort of targeted medically and culturally. So I think what would be really great for our, our listeners to, to know more about you, to know that, you know, if they were to get a diagnosis, they could end up with an awesome Nicole. And so tell us about your life and how it worked and how it's impacted you or not. It's impacted me where I had to take medication for seven years. I had to take an injection to help me grow so I could achieve somewhat of a normal height. I'm 5'1". That's how tall I am.

Exactly. And I would have been roughly about probably 3'7", 4'1". So there's a medication that you can take that can make you taller? If you're diagnosed at roughly around before nine years old, it is helpful for that because then they're able to do that treatment. Are there any side effects to that medication? There could be where you could get a high risk of diabetes. So I did have to get tested every about every six months, I believe I had to go in and get the glucose test that you have to do. And so I had no one gave me that bill. It was very obvious if you meet my my mom, she's like five foot tall, but I was probably going to be short. And my dad's not very tall.

So, okay. So that's fascinating. So you could really, you know, I mean, that's the one feature that is pretty obvious. And you can actually mitigate that. That's really wonderful. Okay. What has it affected you in any other ways outside of medically or are you thriving just like everybody else? I had a learning disability, a nonverbal learner

disability when I was through school. I was diagnosed with it in second grade. So from second grade till junior high, I was in special or junior high school, I should say rather, and I was in special education. So I was actually told by a teacher that I would never be able to go to college. And so I was determined, I was a straight A and B student. I was in top half of my class and I couldn't see why that would be an issue. Right. I mean, I'm listening to you. You know, I have a child who has, you know, intellectual challenges because she has downs. There's nothing even remotely similar in turners that I can even remotely detect. And she's absolutely beautiful, by the way. Thank you. Thank you. So cognitively, even though maybe, so you had this learning disability, but lots of people who have no chromosomal issues have learning disabilities and overcome them. So

you did the same thing. So I actually went, I ended up applying to several colleges, got into all the colleges that I was approved for or that I applied for. Congratulations. Good for you. Thank you. So I was really happy about that. I ended up graduating from Morningside University, which is a small liberal arts private school in Sioux City, Iowa. And it was the best decision I ever made. I graduated with political science and journalism. And after college, I ended up being elected the youngest city councilwoman in my community. That is quite amazing. So how was that experience? It was definitely a learning experience. I was the only female on it for a while. So I had

been the youngest by probably 20 years, at least. They probably needed your voice on that council. And that's exactly why I ran. And so it was definitely I had to learn budgets and negotiations and learn how to be kind of inform my own voice. And that really helped me to become an advocate for those with special needs because now that I had a voice, I was able to use that platform. for those with special needs, because now that I had a voice, I was able to use that platform. So after eight years of serving on there, I decided to move my motivation to being an advocate and actually wrote a book called Butterfly Chronicles. And tell us about Butterfly Chronicles. So it's a memoir about my experience growing up living with it, since it's so rare and a lot of

people don't understand that. And it's also very scary for parents who are diagnosed. Yeah, during COVID, I wanted to make myself kind of proactive. And yeah, instead of sitting watching TV and the news, I wanted to get my mind off of it and do something productive. So I decided to write this memoir. And it's just basically walks me through my from my diagnosis, kind of gives my parents insight as well. And it's just basically walks me through my, from my diagnosis, um, kind of gives my parents, um, insight as well. Um, and kind of going through everything that I went through and gave advice about how to deal with that and, you know, how to deal with it in junior high and how to deal with in high school and how I handled being in special education and just pretty much all that growing up. And yeah, I really hope that this book winds up in the hands of the medical community

because I know that when I've spoken to other moms who have children with Downs, I end up talking to a lot of people who have children with Downs. And Turner's is so rare. Like I said, I only met somebody who actually miscarried someone with Turner. So I've never, you're the first person I've met that I know of that had Turner's, but it seems like there's a lot of doctors, even, you know, in America, we have a 90%, you know, rate of, of abortion with, with Downs. A lot of those are because doctors are pressuring women. Some of them, because the doctors are just sort of, they have an abortion mentality, but some of them, I think they think they're saving that woman

from some sort of hardship, um, by not giving birth to that child. And in, in the end, you know, we had Valentina and Valentina is the best thing that ever happened to our life. And by the way, she's less able to do as many things as you can do. Um, so I, it seems to me like Turner's is, is far less, um, the survival rate is, is, is smaller, but the actual con, uh, sort of conditions of living seem to be a lot more similar to typical people. So I guess I really hope that your book ends up in the hands of medical professions and, and moms expectant moms. So when they get this diagnosis, they don't get freaked out because so many of them do Nicole.

They do. And they, um, they, there's a fear of the unknown. Yes. God has this. How is,

how is her life going to be? Am I, is she going to be limited or not? And because no two cases are the same, it's hard for them to give a definitive idea of what this child's life's going to be. And so I really need to share my life. It demystifies it. Yeah. It takes a lot of the mystery and fear out of it. I also think we live in a world where there's sort of this tyranny of perfection. Like who gets to, who gets to decide what perfect means or looks like, um, or acts like. And so I think your story, Valentina's story, um, so many other people's

stories sort of start to break down what we, what we sort of categorize. I mean, everybody has a lot of hopes and dreams when they're pregnant, but you know, what is perfect? Um, to me, Valentina's perfect. I'm sure your parents think you're pregnant. But you know, what is perfect? To me, Valentina is perfect. I'm sure your parents think you're perfect. And so say God picked you because you're special. And God wanted us to be your parents. And that's just the way they've always been and been so supportive. I unfortunately lost my mom two years ago. I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah. But my, my dad and my mom have always been incredibly supportive. I have an older brother who was always kind of made sure I was doing the same things he was doing. If I wanted to climb a tree, he climbed a tree for me just to show me,

making sure he wanted me to have a normal childhood, just like my parents wanted me to have. And so I'm very blessed with. You are blessed for that. You really are blessed. I think the most beautiful thing I've seen in our family happen with Valentina is the way her siblings interact with her and how much better they've become, how much more patient, loving, kind, tolerant, loving they are because she's in their life. And I'm hearing what you're saying about your brother and I get the same sense. I've been told, and I don't know if it's the same with Turner's, but that probably the hardest part for Valentina will be sort of the middle school to high school, that sort of transition. Was that hard for you too, Nicole?

It was. I was very fortunate to kind of be pushed out of my comfort zone a lot from friends and family. You know, like, hey, go to cheerleading, do dance. And by the time I was four years old, my mom and dad had me in pageants, had me in dance. And so I was used to that socialization. Oh, I'm seeing where all the confidence is coming. It's all that pageant. And I was very fortunate to have that. So when I got into high school, there was different things that, you know, growing up, there was different things that, you know, you didn't feel

like, especially when I was in math and English was kind of my, not my strong suit. That's what I was in special education for. So when I would go home and I would have to do my homework because I didn't get something done in study hall because it took me a little bit longer to complete assignments than my friends. So they would call me and be like, Hey, I want to, let's go outside. Let's go to the park. And my parents always had this rule. You can't leave the kitchen table until your homework is done and go outside. And so that was what my, you rule, you can't leave the kitchen table until your homework is done. Right. And go outside.

And so that was what my, you know, that was kind of the hard thing was not being able to do that. Because by the time I got done with homework, it was dark and I couldn't go. So those were kind of some of the things I had to adjust to and accept. Yeah, except that it took you longer to do homework and you had to get that done. But in the end, being good academically is what then allowed you to go to college, right? Right. Exactly. And I'm very grateful for that. And being able to, I always took my studies, I think because it was harder for me. I took it more seriously than maybe some of my friends did. And I was determined, college was always something I wanted to do. And politics was always something I wanted to do. So I was very fortunate to be involved in politics from 15 to do the Iowa caucuses and caucus and do all that fun stuff.

So how was your college experience? It was fantastic, actually. I was the promotions and news director for my local radio station. I was involved. I was secretary for the College Republicans. I was secretary for Morningside Civic Union and student government. And so I was involved in everything. And I was so accepted that I ended up being on the homecoming court my senior year of college. So it was just this amazing kind of painful circle that I finally felt like, okay,

I'm coming into my own. Even though I have this, I'm coming to my own and I'm able to do the things that my friends are doing. And just finally felt like I was achieving that normalcy that I always wanted to growing up. And so when, when you talk about achieving that normalcy, was that something that you, you internalize, like you, you knew you had turners. And so you, you, you internalize, like you, you knew you had turners. And so you, you felt like I'm just not like everybody else, but we're, or were other people not treating you like everybody else? It wasn't all you. Was it mostly you thinking that? I would say probably about 90% of it was me. There was some cases where I didn't actually, I didn't even tell anybody until I was 16 that I had it. Like my, my family knew and my best friend knew.

But as far as my student body, I didn't tell anybody until my teacher in high school. I was in parenting class and we're like, we're studying genetic disorders and we want you to talk about your experience with Turner's syndrome. And I was very reluctant. But then I got up in front of the class and I did it and everybody was so supportive and asked questions, of course. That's because you're from Iowa. Everyone's so nice in Iowa. If you're going to have turners, have it in Iowa. Exactly. I live in a town of about 5,500. So my graduating class was 89. So everybody known from like preschool through high school that, you know, you were going to be going to the same school as everybody else. So I felt like these

were not just my friends, but they become family over the years, you know, generations of people going to school together. My dad would go to school with their dad. And so it just became this knowing who we are. And so when I did that, I was reluctant, but it was also kind of cathartic and very, you know, kind of therapeutic. You released it. You were able to, you kept it the secret and now you were able to release it and be free. And so about 90% of that was me just wanting to have that, not tell anybody, not because I was a shame of it. Of course, it was just that I wanted that normalcy. I wanted that acceptance and didn't want people to look at me or patronize me so to speak in a lot of ways like oh you can't that's okay because I mean I had an experience with my

teacher so when I had that I was like I'm gonna close it even more and then when my teacher my other teacher had me do that it was just kind of like, okay, now I can do that. And that gave me the confidence to be an advocate for those who may not be able to communicate as well. You know, I get this sense that, you know, God has really had a hand in your life that, you know, he put you into the right family. He put you into the right state, into the right community, into the right school, into the right state, into the right community, into the right school, into the right university. I can just sense that, that, that's, that's, that his hand has been in your life. I really get that

feeling. So what, what is, what is your, I mean, you're an advocate for, for Turner syndrome. I, I love all that I've gotten to learn about Turner Syndrome and through you, through the information that we had to research to have you on. And I guess, what do you want to accomplish as an advocate for Turner's? What do you want, for example, to let a mom know who maybe has that diagnosis? I would definitely say to, I just want to have hope, to encourage them to have hope, to understand that when you get that initial diagnosis, when you're holding that little girl in your arms and you're understanding what the future may hold,

understand that it's the calm before the storm, but you will get through it. You'll see that you'll have so much potential in that child, so much things that they can accomplish. And I really wanted to give that hope to those who are diagnosed, especially those who are diagnosed at nine years old. I met a girl in Iowa at a book signing, and she came up to me. She told me, I'm nine. I was just diagnosed two weeks ago. And for some reason, I saw your book, and I came came up to you and I just want you to sign my book.

And I went and I just kind of I got really emotional because that is exactly what I'm doing. Yes. And I also want that to to get that one percent to hire because I want that to be people to know that there may be another that treatment. But there might be earlier, they're not treatment, but there might be earlier diagnosis, earlier potential for that child to have those treatments and not have abortions. That's one thing as well, because I want parents to be informed of their decision that even though

your child is diagnosed with this, that it's not, I mean, it's scary, but it's not, you know, limited that they could be able to. But guess what?

You have a right to life. You have a right to your life. And, and no one should take that away from you. Even if there are limitations in some sorts, even if there are some medical complications, your life has value. I I'm happy that I got to meet you. My life is better because I'm learning about people with Turner's syndrome. And I'm so happy that you're using your life in such a positive way. I'm in

total admiration of your parents and your community of what they've done to support you and help you to become the woman you're supposed to be and that you clearly are. Last thoughts, Nicole, I'm totally mesmerized by you. Well, thank you so much. I just want to say thank you, of course, for having me on. But for those who are listening, just to do research on it, to maybe share a blurb on Facebook or Instagram or social media. Just say, hey, maybe even share this. Just saying, okay, this girl has Turner syndrome. Here's a little bit more about it.

And maybe by listening to that, maybe one of your friends can see that and be like, oh, maybe that's what my daughter has because she's been struggling. And now I see this. Maybe I'll ask my physician to get further treatment or to get more further testing. And maybe that diagnosis can be pinpointed because that's word to mouth with everything is so important. Nicole, thank you so much for joining us today at the kitchen table. You are an inspiration. Keep living your life to the fullest. You're making the world a better place. And we're so glad that you could join us. God bless you. Thank you so much. You as well.

Thank you. All right. Bye, Nicole. Bye. I want to thank Heather McDonald and also Nicole Cleveland for joining us at the kitchen table. We've enjoyed the conversation. And if you did, too, let us know.

Subscribe, rate, and review this podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts. You can also listen ad-free with a Fox News Podcast plus subscription on Apple Podcasts and Amazon Prime members can listen to this show ad free on the Amazon Music app. We hope to see you around the kitchen table next week. Bye, everybody. Hi, everybody. It's Brian Kilmeade. We'll be right back.