From the Kitchen Table: The Duffys - Xi Jinping's Unprecedented Rule & The "Chinafication" Of America

Episode Date: October 27, 2022

On this episode, Sean and Rachel sit down with Senior Fellow at the Gatestone Institute and the author of "The Coming Collapse Of China" Gordon G. Chang. Together they discuss the unprecedented third term of China's president Xi Jinping.   Gordon explains the tactics that President Xi has used to secure power in China and the impact his third term as leader of the Chinese Communist Party will have on relations between the United States and China. Later he discusses why he believes the Chinese "Social Credit" system should be feared by the West. Follow Sean and Rachel on Twitter: @SeanDuffyWI & @RCamposDuffy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hey everyone, welcome to From the Kitchen Table. I'm Sean Duffy along with my partner for the podcast and my lovely wife, Rachel Campos

Duffy. So great to be back at our kitchen table, Sean. And today, you know, I'm kind of a China hawk. So are you. And every now and then through our work, we meet people who are just really focused on this idea of not just China and the threat they are to America, but really the Chinafication of America. And so one of those is Gordon Chang. He is the author of The Coming Collapse of China. He also works with the Gatestone Institute, where he's a senior fellow. And he was on Fox and Friends this weekend talking to me about that really weird godfather-like scene we saw at

the quasi-coronation of Chairman Xi over the weekend. And so I thought we'd bring him on the podcast to sort of give us some more in-depth information about what we saw and what it means and everything related to China. Gordon Chang, thanks for joining us at the kitchen table. Well, thank you, Rachel. And thank you, Sean. You're coming to us from Anchorage, where you're actually going to speak to our Air Force about China, I presume, right? About China, about the extraordinary events of the last seven days, but also in general about China's challenge to not only the United States, but the international system. to not only the United States, but the international system. Absolutely. So why don't you just set the stage for us by telling us what happened at, I call it the coronation, but there's probably some other Chinese official name for it.

But it's essentially where Chairman Xi basically is going to be the president. It's unprecedented for yet another term, which I guess means for life, probably. What do you make of all that? And explain it. Yeah. term, which I guess means for life, probably. What do you make of all that and explain it? Yeah. Xi Jinping, the Chinese ruler on Sunday, received his third term as general secretary of the Communist Party. It is precedent breaking because in recent years, the party had tried to limit senior leaders to two terms at the top of the Chinese political system. But Xi not only got his third term, he packed the Politburo Standing Committee of the Communist

Party, which is the apex of political power in China. The other six seats are now filled all with his loyalists, which means that there is no opposition to him, at least at the very top of the Chinese political system. But the events on Sunday followed the extraordinary event on Saturday, something that we have not seen in a very long time. Describe what happened for those who didn't see that. What happened? At the closing ceremony of the Communist Party's 20th National Congress, Hu Jintao, who is the immediate predecessor to Xi, was frog-marched out of the session. And this occurred after the press had been allowed in. So obviously, this was an attempt to not only

intimidate the Communist Party, which they could have done in closed session, but to intimidate the Chinese people and more of concern to us to intimidate the world. Now, Hu Jintao is a fascinating figure. He's the leader of what's known as the Communist Youth League faction in the party. leader of what's known as the communist youth league faction in the party. But after the events on Saturday, one could argue that there is no more youth league faction. But right now, this is of great concern because Xi Jinping has consolidated power. He believes and reveres in Mao Zedong, the leader of the, the first leader of the People's Republic. So Xi is very much a Maoist, believing in total control over society. And he doesn't believe in a free market or open semi-market.

He believes in state domination of the economy, state enterprises, state banks. He believes in total control and total surveillance. So China is no longer authoritarian, as people used to call it. It is now either totalitarian or semi-totalitarian on the way to full-on totalitarianism. We've seen this before in other countries. It always ends in tragedy, not just for those countries involved, but for others as well. just for those countries involved, but for others as well. You know, Gordon, I watched the Huxin Tao removal from the big meeting, and I didn't have any background like you have, but it was shocking where, I think he's 79 years old, he's an older man, a couple seats away from Xi Jinping, and two security guards come in and forcibly make him stand up. He's obviously

confused, and they march him out. And obviously, he's grabbing onto different leaders, including Xi himself, to see if anyone was going to save him, anyone was going to object. No one did it. This was all appeared to be orchestrated. And I always wonder, what does this mean for America? What lessons do we take? Again, you just mentioned that China's totalitarian, their totalitarianness now, or what rising threat comes from this? What message should we take from what happened? We heard from Xi Jinping in the opening day of the 20th National Congress, where he gave his work report. And that work report had a very dark vision of the world. He talked about security. He talked of China, where nobody actually threatens China. And he also mentioned Taiwan,

that history demands that the People's Republic annex Taiwan. So this was a dystopian view of things. And now Xi Jinping has what looks to be total power. That means he has the ability to accomplish what he has told us he will do. And totalitarian leaders are very good at actually trying to accomplish what they say. So we have to assume that they'll march on Taiwan. And we also have to assume that they'll march on the rest of the world. Because in prior speeches, and in prior things that he's done, Xi Jinping has made it very clear that he believes that he has the mandate of heaven to rule Tianxiao, which is all under heaven. This was the notion from two millennia of imperial rule,

that Chinese emperors were not only permitted by heaven to rule the planet, but that they were compelled by heaven to do so. And Xiping has actually gone beyond this because since 2018 his officials have openly talked in public about china ruling the moon and mars so this is the most ambitious ruler in history sean do we know what happened to hu xintao and has there been any since we last talked i asked asked you that on Sunday on Fox and Friends, and you said no one had heard from him. Has anyone heard from him since then? No. And there are rumors unconfirmed, which may or may not be true. I tend to suspect they're not. But there are rumors on Chinese social media that Communist Party officials have been rounding up whose family. And that's entirely possible

because in the communist system, when someone gets punished, the entire family will get punished. It's not as formalized as North Korea, where if someone's punished, then three generations back are also punished. But it is normal Communist Party politics to attack the family. So there is concern not only for Hu himself, but for his immediate family.

You know, I look at this and say, what does this mean for America in the sense that does the Biden administration, do Republicans and Democrats come together and finally recognize the growing military and economic threat that is China? Do our businesses start to take a step back and say, well, maybe we shouldn't be investing so much in China? Maybe we shouldn't share so much of our technology. Maybe we should be more concerned about the espionage that's taking place in America with our technology that's not just being used economically, but also being militarily used to advance their Navy, their Air Force, and their military capabilities? Well, on the part of the Biden administration itself, the civilian officials, there's been a noticeable lack of sense of urgency. And that's also been true of the

senior leadership in the Pentagon, the three and four stars, at least until last week. Last week, two events occurred, which broke a pattern. For instance, on Monday, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said that China was on a much faster timeline, as he put it, with regard to Taiwan. And then on Wednesday, Admiral Mike Gilday, who is the chief of naval operations, in other words, the Navy's top officer, actually said that he could not rule out China moving against Taiwan this year. But apart from those two statements, we've had a Pentagon that in general knows it needs to prepare, but it is not really moved with what you'd say at the speed that they should be moving. With regard to the Biden administration, they did something which was really terrific about a week ago, where President

Biden, by executive order, prohibited the sale of advanced semiconductors to China, as well as the sale of associated chip-making equipment. But here, again, the lack of sense of urgency, the president gave two waivers, one to South Korea, the other to Taiwan, for one year. So if they felt that this was as urgent as I think it is, they would not have issued those waivers. But at least they're moving in the right direction. As for business itself, that's a great question. There's a lot of different attitudes in the business community. We see, for instance, that Walmart and the big box stores are fully committed to their China supply chains. But even Apple, which once was fully committed,

is now having second thoughts. It moved iPad production to Vietnam and some of its iPhone 14 production to India. One of the things, Sean, that we don't often focus on is that American companies, they're being pushed out of China by China itself. So they've coming to a recognition that they have got to diversify because otherwise they may not be able to make products for Americans and others. That's so interesting. There's two things that

came to my mind. One was you told me earlier that Americans should leave China now. I want to know why. What do you see happening to those who stay? I mean, there's a lot of American business people in China. And two, I read that global capital since that, I'm going to call it again, the coronation of Chairman Xi, that global capital is leaving. Is that correct? Is it as what we think it is or not so much? Yeah, the Chinese markets, equity markets and Chinese stocks in the U.S. plummeted after the coronation, down something like 14 percent in New York. The Chinese currency, the renminbi, is falling. Has been actually for quite some time,

but it actually took bigger drops this week. And that's in reaction to what people saw at the 20th National Congress. There's a perception that, you know, there's now very little hope about China moving in a better direction. So right now, there's just gloom. You know, with regard to Americans and other foreigners in China, the point here really is that Beijing has been isolating itself from the international community, cutting links, and has actually become even xenophobic. Just to give you an example, about three weeks ago, a vice minister

for health was asked, what can the Chinese people do to protect themselves from monkeypox? And his answer was, stay away from foreigners. So we really see the mentality right now just permeating the Chinese society. But there's also one other thing, and that is this also, this goes back to the 20th National Congress. Xi Jinping has put together what people are now calling a war cabinet. When you look at the people who were elevated at the 20th National Congress and those who were not. And this comes after Xi has been not only engaged in the fastest military buildup since the Second World War, but I can say that he is preparing to launch an invasion of Taiwan or some other country such as Japan and the Philippines. And he's also got his he's even got his troops deep into Indian controlled territory now. So India is also a target. But this means that any foreigner in China is at risk. We saw what happened to Brittany Greiner in Russia.

Well, I think Americans are at least as great a risk as Americans in Russia as they are in China. You know, Gordon, China's had some great success with its economy. So they have this communist philosophy but have overlaid free markets on top of it and have been very successful. But do you see that changing now with the third term of Xi? And you have this book with the coming collapse of China. Do you see China actually collapsing? Do you see it getting stronger? How does the world respond if they invade Taiwan? I mean, how does the economy play? Because the strength of their military really is coming from the strength of their economy. And that's right, Sean.

The one thing about the Chinese economy is, although they claimed 3.9% growth year on year in the third quarter, that number is the result of outright fabrication. And we know some statistical tricks that they use to produce that. So I think that as a practical matter, the Chinese economy is actually contracting at this time. We know that the Chinese property market- Are you saying they lie about their economic growth, Gordon?

Oh, yeah. They lie? Just imagine that, Sean. Right, I can't believe it. Just imagine that. We would never think that they would imagine that, Sean. Right. I can't believe it. Just imagine that. I mean, we would never think that they would do that, right? Right. But the one thing, though, is although there has been over the course of decades exaggeration of China's economic performance by the Bureau of National Statistics, there's a sense that in the last, let's say, six months or so, that they've

been exaggerating more. And we're starting to see this because the underlying indicators are almost all down. So it's hard to come up with a positive GDP number, gross domestic product. But also, people are relying more on satellites. And there are more and more satellite surveys monitoring economic activity in China, which point to a contracting economy. You know, all economies contract. But this one looks like a long term one for a number of reasons. First of all, China to avoid a 2008 downturn, embarked on a massive stimulus program, the biggest in history, and now their

economy is exhausted and they have a debt crisis. But there's something even more fundamental than that, and that is Xi Jinping believes in Marxist economics, or at least Maoist economics, of the state controlling everything. The reason why China had that boom that you referred to, decades of prosperity, is because they moved to freer markets, and that's over. So we can see that the Chinese regime is now bent on going back to something that clearly has not worked, cannot work, and they are attacking their most productive sector of societies, the domestic Chinese private entrepreneurs,

like, for instance, Alibaba and Ant Group. So, you know, this is not a good story. This makes sense to me, though, because I mean, I keep thinking about that period of growth, right? And that's what worries me about China. I know, as you guys mentioned, that they lie about certain things, but economically speaking. But I was really confused, and maybe you can help me understand, and maybe the answer is what you're saying, that he really is a Maoist and believes in those things,

because he has a zero COVID policy, which is clearly hurting economic productivity in China. Yes. You know, I'm glad you mentioned zero COVID because, you know, it's supposed to be a disease control measure, but it's now obvious that it's a people control measure. Yes. And one other thing about this, and that is from the early months of the pandemic, the Communist Party has made its control of the disease a test of its legitimacy. Because it's argued, and they've been very public about this, and the propaganda is relentless, that because China was better able to control the disease, it shows that its form of communism is superior to democracy in general, and American democracy in particular. So they believe that isolation is the only way to control the disease. So they're going to go to obsessive lengths to control the coronavirus. So this is a test of Communist Party rule. And that's one other reason why. But when you look at this, it's crippling the Chinese economy because even in areas where coronavirus is not present, even in areas where there are no lockdowns, people can't plan because they know this disease is highly transmissible.

It jumps from place to place. It comes back as it's come back to Shanghai, for instance. as it's come back to Shanghai, for instance. And so it has made planning very, very hard for business, which means that business activity has slumped. And that's why I can't believe that the Chinese economy grew 3.9 in Q3. And what I think is important is that we have clear eyes in the West, whether it's our business leaders or our political leaders on what's actually happening in China, what it does for freedom and democracy. And so often now we hear our business leaders talking about really how great the Chinese system is, how quickly they can move and pivot because they have this state control, which I was going to, yeah, I was going to lead in that. So Justin Trudeau of Canada has his own view on China and the Chinese system. Let's take a listen. We'll get you to react.

There's a level of admiration I actually have for China. Their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime and say, we need to go green as fast as we need to start investing in solar. So Justin Trudeau singing the praises of the totalitarian system in China as maybe a way for us to look forward. If we had a little more China in Canada and maybe the U.S., we could be as strong as China. This is insanity. Well, this is the Trudeau family. Trudeau, you know, people argue, is a communist. Yes, he is. It's just that he's, you know, the elected leader in a democratic society, so he can't actually turn Canada into a socialist state immediately. But this is his father. I mean, they admired Castro.

They admired Mao. So, you know, don't get me started about Trudeau because I'll get angry. Gordon, I think he's Castro's love child. I don't know if you've seen those photos, but it's really uncanny. That is a real possibility. When you look at Pierre Trudeau, supposedly his father. But the other thing here is that it's not just Trudeau, it's Bill Gates. And, you know, he said, these, you know, China is a capitalist society. It's not communist anymore. Well, I mean, these American business people just miss, I don't know whether they're sincere or not, but they are misdescribing China because it's not the China that actually exists. So when you look at all of this, we have a business class that is undermining our national security.

That leads to other questions. But the point right now is that we are now seeing a lot of people say, oh, my God, I was wrong. China is still communist because, by the way, it's getting even more communist. Rachel, we'll have more of this conversation after this. Breaking news coming in from Bet365, where every nail biting overtime win, breakaway, pick six, three point shot, underdog win, buzzer beater, shootout, walk-off, and absolutely every play in between is amazing. From football to basketball and hockey to baseball, whatever the moment, it's never ordinary at Bet365.

Must be 19 or older, Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you or someone you know has concerns about gambling, visit connectsontario.ca. So I want to make sure we have time to talk about the Chinese social credit score system, because I really think that's what many of these business leaders, especially in tech world, I think the World Economic Forum, I think all of it is moving in that direction. But are people in, you know, are leaders, as you say, I mean, I'm finding it hard to believe that they're waking up and going, oh, no, China's really is communist. I feel like and tell me if I'm wrong, that the elite capture strategy of the Chinese communist government of the CCP has been effective.

communist government of the CCP has been effective that, you know, I believe, you know, and I believe that Joe Biden is, is compromised, Gordon. I believe that the things that Hunter Biden did and the, and the, and the Biden family did in order to enrich themselves have made them beholden to the Chinese. The Chinese know exactly what the Biden family has done. And I think that kind of, you know, maybe it's not the actual corruption of the Biden family, but it's definitely that many of our businesses are so tied in and are making so much money off of China that I find it hard to believe we could just, that meeting this past weekend, this coronation would suddenly change the path that suddenly they've woken up. Am I am I right or am I too cynical? You know, I think some people have have woken up. But, you know, I fully subscribe to what you say, Rachel. You know,

there when you look at the views that you hear at the World Economic Forum, you've got to come away and you're just shaking your head. You know, are these people who believe in democracy? Well, no, they apparently don't. I mean, they talk about all sorts of things which are stunning, including additional social controls, attempts to depopulate the world because it's good for the climate. I mean, these are things which, you know, only totalitarian lovers. No, no, these are these are Westerners. I know, but the population control thing is right out of the China playbook. It's right out of the China playbook. But it's even it's even more so because, you know, some people in the West are talking about reducing the number of the population by, you know, these stunning numbers.

Like I heard one was like 60 or 70 percent. This is this is just this is I mean, I don't know. I don't have a word to describe it, but it's really dangerous because these this is just inconsistent with any notion of democracy. And Gordon, on that on that that point, what frustrates me, I was in Congress for nine years, and I see businessmen and politicians turn their back on their countrymen, whether they're the people, the men and women that built their factories, that helped them develop their products, they turn their back on them, and to make a few extra dollars, they've gone to China. And in some respects, I understand part of that.

But in other respects, oftentimes they can stay here and provide those jobs, provide that technology to American communities, and they refuse to do that or choose not to do that. Do you see, if you pull out the Gordon Chang crystal ball, if you pull out the Gordon Chang crystal ball and you see what happened last week with, as we're calling it, the coronation of Xi for a third term unprecedented, we see the rise of the military, we see this potential invasion of Taiwan. Do we see at least American leaders, American business leaders changing course? We've talked about that a little bit, but also the World Economic Forum turn against the China idea and back to this idea of democracy and freedom and self-governance and voting, less control, less authoritarianism. How do you see this playing out for us? And maybe what do we have to do to make sure we preserve the West's idea of democracy as opposed to this push of authoritarianism

that's coming from the World Economic Forum and our business leaders like Bill Gates? Yeah. I don't know if there's anything that'll ever change the minds of Davos, but I do believe that in the United States we are seeing a change of opinion and it's across the board and it's bottom up. I agree with you that there are American business leaders who feel more in common with their Chinese counterparts than they do with their fellow Americans. And this is like one of the saddest things, as we have seen the migration of factories to China, leaving American communities devastated.

And here, you know, we can think about what fentanyl has done to people who don't have hope. Yes. But putting that aside for the moment, I do think that things have changed and for many people we have seen a stark change in attitudes especially because of covet 19. the stanford center on china's economy and institutions in July published a report that documented the sharp drop in American favorability, favorable opinions of China, and actually speculated about how that would change the ability of a China-friendly American elite to actually come to terms and accommodate China, because there's just too much pressure from the bottom,

which is the reason why, you know, Sean and Rachel, your podcast is so important because it is changing people's views. And so this is something that we Americans are going to have to do because we obviously know that there are a lot of business leaders, a lot in the political elites, whether they're bought off or whether they are just misguided or whether they're greedy or craven or whatever, but they hold views which undermine our national security. Doesn't it go back to Donald Trump, who is someone who, Republicans had this idea of free trade, free trade at all expense. You can cheat us. It's not fair, but we're going to have free trade. And I think Trump started to talk about China

and the impact that China had on our economy. And they put tariffs on American goods. They protect their markets. All the while, we're supposed to open ours up. And I think Donald Trump's position on China changed a lot of Republicans' viewpoints. I remember talking to the former president, and he was like, I don't care where you go. Go to Vietnam. Go to India. Just get the hell out of China. Get the hell out of China China and you're not going to have a problem with this administration. I think he understood the threat, not just to the American community, but to the American way of life at large from the economic and the military buildup that's come from this communist party. Absolutely. What Trump did at a most fundamental level was he broke

five decades of the China consensus in Washington and New York. And that consensus was that it was in the interest of the United States to support the Communist Party. And in the past, prior to Trump, we saw a number of occasions where American presidents rode to the rescue of Chinese communism. Richard Nixon did it in 1972 when he went to Beijing. George H.W. Bush did it when he helped out Deng Xiaoping after the Tiananmen Massacre. And Bill Clinton did it in 1999 with his trade agreement that paved the way for China's entry into the World Trade Organization. Trump said, no, I do not believe that.

I do not believe that, quote unquote, engaging China is going to be for the benefit of anybody but the Communist Party. And he started along with policies that put America first. Now, I think he should have gone further than he did, but he made that important theoretical shift. And many of his policies, including the tariffs, were steps in the right direction. And I think, you know, when we think about the 2020 election, it's unfortunate that Trump did not have four more years to cement the initiatives that he had started, because those initiatives were absolutely essential to save the

American Republic. Because, you know, I think we could lose our country. You know, we don't, you know, Biden has started to do some things that are in the right direction, but that's only because we've pressured him to do that. And we got pressure him some more because it's not in his nature to do those things that are necessary to save america because he's compromised i'm telling you i really believe that i really believe that i think you're right i think donald trump was such a disruptor and i think nothing scared the elites more than his position on China and the policies he enacted. And really what you talked about, Gordon, which is this fundamental shift. I think a lot of us, me included, Sean included, you know, I studied economics. I believe in free markets. I thought,

yes. And I believed in this idea of free markets, no matter what, even though they weren't playing by the same rules, and it was screwing over our own people. And I just, it just clicked on for me. And I was, you know, I guess I was born again, if you will, in that regard. It woke me up to it. And then we saw the pandemic, the way they lied. I mean, and the way our elites lied about the origins of the virus and China's role in covering it up. I mean, we knew from the beginning they were disappearing, the damn scientists inside of that virology place and also in the hospitals where people were going. Those people were disappeared. Duh. Like they were, they knew exactly what happened. We had to go through how many years of playing this stupid game with Fauci, pretending like

we don't know, did it come from a bat? I think we're all onto it. And I think what scares me truly Gordon, and this is what I want to want to get you to talk about with me is the social credit score system, because I believe that we are on that path here. I believe we're already seeing it. We're already seeing through cancel culture, through all kinds of things, the way that many of the January 6th people were treated in terms of their finances. Now they can't get bank accounts, mortgages, insurance, that there is a system already in place through digital and tech platforms to punish people who don't think the right way. It's happening. And I don't know how we stop it. And I want to get your thoughts on it and tell me if I'm right that they're taking their model from China.

You're 100% right, Rachel, because we are moving towards that model and we've just got to stop it. It's just, it's absolutely essential. You know, in China, they have, depending how you talk to these like 540 million or 626 million surveillance cameras, but they will eventually have even more than that. And they'll be connected to facial recognition systems. And we have seen people being canceled in this country. And by the way, our friend Justin Trudeau

did that to the Canadian truckers. So yeah, that's the way they're going. And we've just absolutely got to stop them, which means that, by the way, November 8th is critically important because we need to elect people who believe in liberty and not people who believe that government is the answer to all questions. Unfortunately, that is a feeling that has really taken root, especially among younger Americans. You know, when you have an American population that sees China as a friend and an ally and my ability to get cheap stuff at Walmart, businesses can, they can leave, they can, they can, they can take their products and the manufacturing to the, to the, to this communist country. But

to your point, Gordon, when Americans start to wake up and they start to see China as a threat, I think it's harder for businesses to pack up and to leave. I think it's harder to engage in the censorship. As Rachel's mentioning, the social credit score that you see in China, it's harder to take place here. And when more people, the cloud clears, the mist clears, and they see what's happening and they have a choice of government control or freedom. My hope is that they'll choose freedom and politicians who are going to fight for policies in Washington that give maximum freedom and limit government control. I can only hope. I'm concerned about this young generation who's used to being censored. Their content, whatever they post, their home address, their bank account

is captured. These tech companies know everything about them and they're completely fine with it. That concerns me because I think my generation, our generation would be like, yeah, that doesn't feel good to me that someone knows all this stuff about me. I want my privacy. The new generation doesn't seem to feel that same way about their own privacy. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Do you worry about the new prime minister, Gordon, in England?

In Britain, yes, he had apparently, and this is alleged, but allegedly he has family ties to people in his family own some sort of system very similar to a social credit score digital company. So, I mean, we're in this globalized world. What do you make of that? Is that something that has been on your radar at all? Is that something that has been on your radar at all? Yeah, the new British prime minister, certainly it was much more China friendly than his predecessor, Liz Truss. And I was very happy that Ms. Truss won the leadership battle, what, seven weeks ago. But now we're stuck. I think that in general, though, Europe might be going in a better direction because we got the new Italian prime minister, Maloney.

And, you know, there's still a lot of too much love for China, especially in Germany. But we're changing things. The one thing that's important is that Europe will take its cues from the United States. is that Europe will take its cues from the United States. So we need to have leadership in this country. And if we do that, then we can deal with the Great Britons and the Germanys and the Hungries of the world. But it really starts with the United States. And so what we do starting November 8th is really, really important to get our country on the better track because this does look really, really important to get our country on the better track, because this does look really,

really worrying. You know, as Ronald Reagan said, I know people say this all the time, but it is absolutely true. Freedom is only one generation away from extinction, and we're on the edge of extinction. Yeah, you're saying it exactly right. You know, Gordon, you've been such a powerful voice in our country, giving us all this information, you know, raising the flags of what's going on. I've wanted to ask you this question for a long time. You know, I wonder, do you ever fear for your own life here? I met a student once in Milwaukee, a Chinese young man who stood up and said something at an event that I was speaking at. And later on, I talked to him and he said, you know, I had to look around to make before I stood up and spoke because I was afraid there might be someone here who could hurt me. Now, I know you're an American. He was he's a Chinese

who still has family back home. But, you know, there's a lot of Chinese spies in America. There's a lot of stuff that happens. Have you ever feared for your safety, for your family's safety, for being such an outspoken voice on China? Not really. The way I look at it is, I'm going to do what I'm going to do, and they're going to do what they're going to do, and I believe in God. Yeah. Well, that's a very American way of looking at it. That's the kind of courage I think we all need to have as we face the China threat. And we try to put the brakes on the Chinafication of our own country. Gordon, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for your time. Thanks for all the research and work you do to, you know, helping our country remain free and strong in the face of this threat. You're truly, I think, a national treasure. So thank you for joining us today.

Well, thank you, Rachel. And thank you, Sean. And I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. So it's for me to thank you. Thank you. I hope you enjoy the rest of your time in Alaska. Yeah, enjoy. Go salmon fishing, Gordon, or something like that. Go salmon fishing. But we do get to talk to people who make a difference. And so that's a privilege for us. The men and women who put uniforms on, you know, in the American military, no doubt about that.

Gordon Chang, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. Thank you. We'll have more of this conversation after this. Shop Cyber Monday Deals now on Amazon. With up to 35% off home goods to deck their halls, toys to stuff their stocking, and electronics like noise-canceling headphones to silent their nights. Shop Amazon Cyber Monday Deals now. I think that was a fascinating conversation.

He's so smart on China. He's been talking about this for so long. And what he's been talking about, what he's been thinking about, we're now seeing come to pass with, again, the coronation come back to that continuously because no one can beat us but ourselves. You know, we will if we lose to these ideas, it'll be because we've given up. It's our elite and our population who's given up on the idea of freedom for a different model that we think is better, that is tyrannical, that doesn't believe in freedom, that is that is torturous. And, you know, I think, you know, Gordon talking about totalitarianism and how it always ends poorly is so smart because it always ends poorly. It always ends with violence. It always ends with war. It always ends with a lack of human rights for the people that live under a totalitarian regime. Yeah, you know, I think his conversation was such a mixed bag. You know, on the one hand, I saw some glimmers of hope.

You know, he said that, you know, the Biden administration did make a couple good moves, though they were kind of half measures and he didn't go far enough. half measures and he didn't go far enough. I, you know, this idea that capital is, is leaving, at least right now, is starting to look at different places to put their money, you know, that maybe, maybe Xi Jinping went too far and, or, or, or even that he's, he actually is now free to be the real, you know, Maoist that he is, that he truly believes those ideas. If that's true, they won't have the economic power that we fear they may have moving into the future. So that's a positive.

On the other hand, so many of the Marxist ideas have culturally taken hold in our country. And you brought it up, Sean. So many of these students, these young people who are, you know, just on the more benign level, as you talked about, you know, the way they're okay with surveillance by big tech, it's totally normalized to them. All the way to like yesterday or this past week, there was another speech on one of our college campuses where you see these like totally brainwashed kids, but also that they are like the communist youth, you know, they're spitting and they're angry and they're, you know, angry about like transgender issues and they're freaking out. And there's just like

so much brainwashing going on. And you look at the polling of young people who are okay with socialism or prefer to live in a communist system, prefer to live under a communist system than a capitalist system. There's just not, we haven't done a good job of passing on the ideas of freedom, our history, our economic model, why it's better. There's a blockout on all the bad stuff that communists and all the things you talked about earlier that happened under communist rule. So I'm left very, very troubled because I see some glimmers of hope. But I also see a social credit score system in the WEF and our lack of of of educating our own kids and ideas about freedom that make me worry. You know, Gordon talked about, you know, Donald Trump. You know, Donald Trump, he wished he had gone further.

It was a right start, but I wish he had gone further. And it hoped had he had four more years that he would have completed this idea of how we push back and fight back against China. And just I'm doing this without Gordon on the line. And I think you'd agree with me, but what you saw Donald Trump do was in the political sense extreme because the screeching that came from the American business community,

from the American elites, the screech that came from the Democrat Party when he was going to put tariffs on China to equal the playing field was immense. The blowback was significant. And Donald Trump still did it because he knew that it was the right thing to do for the American people. The American elites didn't like it, but the American people loved it. And I think in the two years since Donald Trump has left office, there's been a solidification of the idea that China really is a threat. We do need more aggressive policies towards China. Again, you can't have free trade without fair trade, and it's not fair trade with China. I think the American people understand that. and it's not fair trade with China. I think the American people understand that. And in essence,

the American business community is going to have to follow because you can't say, I want to be an American business that sells out my countrymen and make all my stuff in China and then bring it back here and sell it to the American people. That idea, I think, is going to fade with the enlightenment of our people understanding the real threat that it is to our country and to freedom and democracy when our companies go to China. I think that's real. And one other point on the college campuses, we've seen China infiltrate all different kinds of businesses and institutions, including our universities and campuses, and push their ideas into the culture of the campus. And to your point, Rachel, we do see these little woke Marxist extremists spitting and hissing and espousing the communist idea. if they move on Taiwan in the next year or two years, I think you're going to see a complete rethink of China, even in the university systems, even in our institutions, even in our politics.

And then you won't see these ideas coming, you know, the China idea coming in to the American institution. I think they'll be shunned and pushed out and a rejigger of what we're teaching our kids, the American model versus the Chinese model. I do think that would be the point of pivot that happens in American culture. the way China will behave, which is to take over Taiwan. And it'll be a recognition that we don't have the ability militarily to stop them because we haven't paid attention to our Navy and our Air Force and our military assets. We haven't kept those up to snuff. We're more concerned about woke politics inside our military. We're more concerned about social spending as opposed to military spending. And the role of our government is not social spending. The role of our government is to do things that we can't do for ourselves. Thatfriendly or not. I mean, it's insanity what's happened. I think on the education level, Sean, Senator Blackburn, Senator Rubio, and a few others have tried to get this Confucius money out of.

So we talk about elite capture. They also did a capture at many of our universities. The Chinese CCP did, the Communist Party in China, by buying off universities, paying for things and giving them money and then having this China friendly environment going on at our universities, which has has helped to, you know, indoctrinate so many kids. So could you could you imagine back in the 80s if the Soviet Union was allowed to funnel money into a university system system system to advocate for the communist

model that was the old Soviet Union. I mean, Ronald Reagan would have lost his shit. That would have never happened. But today, that's acceptable. And we don't see China as the threat the old Soviet Union was, but it is as big of a threat or a bigger threat. The communist Lenin said, just give me four years. Give me four years and I can change your entire country. Yep. And they started at the college level and it's moved its way down. You know, they couldn't do the economic Marxism

because I think a lot of Americans are still, you know, entrenched culturally, which is the class warfare markets. Yes. So now, yeah, exactly. They couldn't do the class warfare wasn't as effective. So now they then they use race. And then now they're disrupting with, with gender ideology, people go, what does that have to do with communism? Well, gender ideology is all about disrupting the family. And we know in communism, one of the first things they do is try to separate, you know, to because the family is a threat to the state is a direct threat to the power of the state. And that's why in communist

countries, you'll see kids turning in their parents. This is common stuff that anyone who lived in the Eastern Bloc, in the former Soviet Union in China and Cuba, you know, a sign of, you know, that the party, the government finally has powers being able to convince children that, you know, break those bonds of loyalty between their parents. And we actually saw that here, Sean. During January 6th, there were multiple kids who turned their own parents in to the FBI. So, I mean- And celebrated as heroes on social media. And so they're rewarded, they're viewed as heroes in this new Marxist social media state. You're right. The Marxists need to decouple loyalty to the family and breed loyalty to the state. That's how they get their power. And that's what the left is trying to do today.

And, you know, my hope is that the common sense Democrats, and there are a few left, American loving Democrats, and there are a few left. They're all not, you know, radical, you know, Bernie Sanders, you know, socialist supporters. They're not all AOCs. radical, Bernie Sanders, socialist supporters. They're not all AOCs. But those common sense Democrats will actually pivot and try to move their party into a place that once again can see America first. And again, that's offensive to them because Donald Trump used the phrase, but America first should be an American policy where we look out for our people, our economy, our jobs, our military, our roads, our bridges, our technology, our education. we look out for our people, our economy, our jobs, our military, our roads, our bridges, our technology, our education. We look out for all of that first.

That is our first priority. And maybe to make an argument against myself, you look at what's happening with immigration in UC, and you did a story on Fox and Friends on this, that you have migrants who are not US citizens, who are treated like, I don't want to say kings, but treated very well in these migrant camps in New York City with beds and Xboxes and phone banks and big TVs and cell phones. And here you have American homeless living in squalor. Again, it's this idea that that's absolutely contrary to the America First policy. America First policy means I take care of my people first. I take care of my country first before anyone else's country and before anyone else's people.

And once I'm done with my people and my economy and my country, I can look to the rest of the world and maybe help others out. But when you can't help your own people who are living in squalor, living on the streets, are veterans who are living on the streets. You don't help them, but you help someone from other countries with massive dollar layouts and spending of taxpayer money to help people who came here illegally. That's offensive to the idea of America first. And so in places like New York and Chicago, these big dollar rollouts are happening for people who came here unlawfully to the expense of people who are here, American citizens, and suffering. Last night I was watching the debates with you, Sean, in the kitchen.

And when they asked, it was the Oz-Fetterman debate. And when they asked Sean Fetterman, what was the biggest threat to America? He said, China. He got it right. You said, you said, that's the right answer. The one, the one answer he gave that I, I applauded him and said, John Fetterman, good for you. And it's, but you know what, if, if, if a John Fetterman can acknowledge the threat of China, maybe the Democrat party isn't lost because he's a far left. He's a radical lefty. So maybe there is still hope. But listen, I wanted to say I appreciate Gordon Chang. And as we mentioned, all his good work coming on, you know, from the kitchen table and talking about, you know, what I mean, because I watched that video of who being being escorted out in public fashion against his will.

And I told you this, too. He's the former general secretary of China. I didn't feel so bad for him. He's part of this regime. He propped up that regime, and now he's living by the regime and getting dragged out. You know what? Maybe he should have thought about the country in which it was. You reach out to his friends going, come on, is anyone going to?

You live by the sword, you die by the sword. Is anyone going to help me? And no one was there. No. But yeah, I mean. And how many people were drug out under his rule? And again, this is the system in which you want to govern by, and now you'll live by it, and they'll drag you out one day too. Everyone gets dragged out at one

point. That's what communism is. That's what it is. That's what communism is. It's a very, very evil ideology. It has no respect for the dignity of life. It's all about the regime. And it's not about the individual. It's not about families. it's not about families um and yeah so and it might take away rachel it was heartbreaking but on the other hand you're right you live by the sword you die by the sword you're so smart to bring up the family and i think what all of us have and there's there's challenges in every family um and there's pressures on our families that we've never seen before but strengthen your own family, talk to your own kids, educate your own kids. I think, I mean, and COVID did this for a lot of people, have dinner with your family once, twice, three

times a week where you all sit down and you share a meal and you have conversations that are wide ranging with a kindergartner, which is interesting what kindergartners will say and what's going on in their lives to high school students, to college students. But building and strengthening our families is what we do as patriots to make this country stronger and insulate us. Telling the stories about what's happening in China. I mean, our podcast is from the kitchen table. What is happening? What happens with China?

And the Chinafication ofica is a kitchen table issue if we want to pass off the same wonderful place we grew up in the 80s and sean the 80s were a good time um we better we better we have to make a lot of changes now and i think gordon's right to point to november 8th It is a very important time. There is a new Republican Party, that old Republican Party of the Bushes that was tied into the business elite community and and pretended to be, you know, gave a an olive branch to the social conservatives so that they could get what they wanted with their extreme free enterprise at the cost of, you know, they were actually making money through their relationships with China. That

that whole thing is gone. Donald Trump has changed the party. That party is dead. Those people, that party is dead. And those people are still grumbling. You hear them every now and then. They're still around. They're still grumbling that the system is not working in their favor anymore and that we've all woken up to what the dirty game was. But we have woken up. And right now on November 8th, there are a lot of China hawks, a lot of members, candidates who are for the working class, who believe in America first, who will not sell out to the Chinese money, who will not sell out to the globalists. Those people, we can elect them on November 8th. And this election is really, really important in that regard.

I couldn't help but think when you said I've woken up that you've heard it here first out of her own mouth. Rachel Campos Duffy is woke. She is a woke woman. She's a woke mom of nine. You're right there, Rachel. The 8th of November is a reckoning of policies in the future of the country to take us in a different direction, to have better balance, and to push great American ideas in the House and the Senate. And that's possible. It's going to happen in the House. We're in the House and the Senate. And that's possible. It's going to happen in the House. We're not so sure about the Senate. I'm bullish on the Senate, but that's yet to be seen.

We're going to take the Senate. So listen, I want to thank you all for joining us at our kitchen table. Rachel, great conversation. Great get on Gordon Chang. So smart, so insightful. And you're right. He's an American treasure, and we appreciate him for joining us at The Kitchen Table.

If you like our podcast, you can rate, review, subscribe, wherever you get your podcast to from The Kitchen Table. We'd appreciate that. And until next time, thank you for joining us. Bye, everybody. Hi, everybody. It's Brian Kilmeade. I want you to join me weekdays at 9 a.m. East as we break down the biggest stories of the day

with some of the biggest newsmakers and, of course, what you think. Listen live or get the podcast now