Front Burner - 13 hours, 22 killings: New details emerge in Nova Scotia

Episode Date: April 27, 2020

Nova Scotia is still coming to terms with the mass shooting that unfolded just over a week ago, taking the lives of 22 people. The RCMP has released a more detailed timeline, including information provided by a surviving witness — a woman who had been in a relationship with the gunman — speculation about how the gunman escaped a police perimeter, and more. But questions remain about the crimes and the RCMP’s response.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Last weekend, Nova Scotia woke up to horrific news. We know now the extent of the carnage, the magnitude of the loss. It's been just over a week now since the horrific murder spree in Nova Scotia that left 22 people dead.

Across the country, Canadians stand united in our grief. Your loved ones mattered. They loved. They had dreams. Unity in difficult times is characteristic of this province. We've since learned more about the victims, like Tom Bagley, the Navy veteran and retired firefighter who ran to help his neighbors. Like he saves lives on a daily basis. He puts his life at risk always. And the nurse, Kristen Beaton, who was expecting her second child. All I know is my wife isn't coming home and I'm not having my unborn baby. They were all honored at a virtual vigil on Friday. Virtual because coronavirus physical distancing measures prevented one from being held in person. To my dear Nova Scotia,

we are there with you in the deepest of ways. As you can imagine, over the last several days, people here have been reeling, trying to make sense of something that just doesn't make sense. We've also learned more about how that awful Saturday night unfolded into the following morning when the gunman was shot dead by police. Today, I'm joined again by CBC Nova Scotia's Brett Ruskin to talk about the new details emerging about what happened over those 13 deadly hours and the RCMP's response in that time. This is Frontburner. Hi, Brett. Thanks so much for coming back onto the podcast. Hi, Jamie. Thank you for having me.

So on Friday, the RCMP held this press conference in Nova Scotia where they laid out a more detailed timeline of this awful rampage, including where it began. And we now know that one of the first victims was his girlfriend, and she survived, but that this essentially started with an act of domestic violence. So can we start there today? What happened? Well, we know that there was some kind of a confrontation between the shooter and a woman that he was in a long-term relationship with. That was on Saturday evening.

And we know, based on CBC News sources, that he had forcibly restrained her. We know that she was able to escape and then basically run out to the woods. It's a heavily wooded, dark area, very rural and isolated. And so she headed out to the woods and just hid there for hours. It was only after 6.30 in the morning or daybreak when a victim emerged from hiding after she'd called 911. Our officers responded. We also know that she was one of the key witnesses or at least one of the key people to provide information because she was the one who provided the detail that he was in a car that looked like a police car. This included the fact that he was in possession of a fully marked and equipped replica RCMP vehicle

and was wearing a police uniform. We also learned that he was in possession of several firearms that included pistols and long-barreled weapons. It was at that time that the police issued a bolo, which is to be on the lookout for. So that was critical. Right, and she provided these details early Sunday morning when she essentially emerged from hiding. This story sounds terrifying. And so when the police were able to talk to this woman, what do we know about what their understanding of the situation was up until that point? Right. I know they had had this perimeter set up in Portapique. I know they had had this perimeter set up in Portapique.

Specialized units responded, which included police dog services, emergency response team members, and request for air support helicopter. Police had arrived. Again, the call came in at 10.26 p.m. of some kind of an incident involving gunshots. They arrived. They found just an awful scene. There were at least 13 bodies. There were fires, there were vehicles on fire. And so they set up that perimeter.

They set up at least kind of two blockades, basically, to try to prevent anyone from coming in, anyone from going out. And so up to that point, they were under the understanding that the shooter had three registered and licensed and license-plated police vehicles. And so what they found was among the burning vehicles there were two police-looking vehicles. And then back at the shooter's workplace back in Dartmouth they found a third vehicle that looked like a police vehicle. So the police at that point, the RCMP, thought that they had accounted for all three of the vehicles.

And in fact, they had. But it turns out the shooter had a fourth vehicle, one that wasn't plated. Those details did not emerge. And the fact that there was this fourth unplated vehicle didn't emerge until the early morning hours of the 19th. And that was the one that he was driving around in during the shooting. Okay. And they learned that from the girlfriend, from the woman who emerges from the woods in the morning. That's correct. Okay. And then up until that point, were they operating on the assumption

that he was in the perimeter or that he could have been outside the perimeter? Well, they said that there were three possibilities. One of them that he was still alive within the perimeter, still a risk to the people in there. The second being that he was dead in one of the burning buildings or burning vehicles.

And the third, to them at that point, the least likely option was that he had already left the perimeter, left the area. They figured it was unlikely because they had gotten there very quickly and they had set up that perimeter very quickly. And so they didn't think that he was outside.

They thought he was inside that police perimeter either alive or dead. Okay and of course we know now that it was that third scenario that ended up playing out. I don't like to make assumptions but the suspect had obviously moved beyond the perimeter. Our investigation is ongoing and we've uncovered some information to suggest that there was a vehicle and this was much after the fact that was seen leaving through a field driving through a field. We are assuming that could very well have been the suspect that was leaving the area but that information as I understand it was not known at the time. So we learn by 7 a.m. Sunday morning or the police learn by 7 a.m. Sunday morning that he still could possibly be on the loose in a police vehicle

with a police uniform on and I know they put out something called a bolo be on lookout. What we call a bolo out because that can be done over the radio and then steps were taken to start activating announcements through twitter shortly thereafter two police forces across the province giving this description and they do inform the public that there was an active shooter through twitter the media starts picking this up and around 9 aam, they provide a photo of the shooter, but they don't say that he could be in a police car, and that he could be wearing a police uniform until a tweet at 1017am. And I'm hoping we can spend a bit of time on this. Because according to the RCMP's own timeline here, six more people are killed in that window, starting with a couple acquaintances of the killer.

They were the nicest people I know. Sean McLeod and Alana Jenkins. They loved everybody. I don't think I know anyone that would have ever said anything bad about them. I know they've helped everybody. They've known at least one point in their lives. So, yeah, all of that's correct. All of that's right. And if there can be identified or pinpointed one specific breakdown of communication, it would be this one. The individual officers from the accounts that we heard were incredibly brave and incredibly professional in the way that they were responding. They did everything they could do, and I get that, and I thank them for that. I'm blaming, when I say RCMP, I'm saying whoever's in charge of broadcast systems or notifying us. Like, that's not the soldiers on the ground.

But the communication of that one critical fact, the one fact that they learned of around 7 o'clock or most recently we heard that at 6.30, the police learned that he was in a vehicle that looked like an RCMP vehicle and was wearing clothing that was RCMP clothing. RCMP clothing. The gap from that point to that 10.17am tweet when the public was notified that he was in and looking like a police officer is a critical gap. Nearly four hours that the public was not alerted that essentially someone who looked like a police officer was on the loose shooting and killing people. And again, in that time frame, in those roughly four hours, six people were killed by this shooter. Right. So we mentioned Sean McLeod and Alana Jenkins. He essentially went to their house.

And then their neighbor, Tom Bagley, who we mentioned in the introduction to the show. Oh, Tom. Well, he was the sweetest little fellow you've ever seen. And everybody loved him. Always there if you needed him. He is my hero, not just because he's my dad, but because he is just the way he left us. His daughter says that he saw the fire at the house of McLeod and Jenkins

and went over to help, and he was also found dead on the scene. And then a retiree named Lillian Hislop went out for a walk. She was also killed. Lillian was like us. She walked every day. She always had a smile every time she met us. We wouldn't have walked. My husband and I would not have gone out that morning.

No. And perhaps Lillian might not have either. And then two others, the home care nurses, Heather O'Brien and Kristen Beaton, and they were killed in their cars. And this is particularly disturbing because it seems that the gunman actually pulled them over, as if he were a genuine police officer. So, yeah. So when we spoke last week, I had heard from a few people that he was pulling over people and killing them that way.

Now we have this confirmed. During this police news briefing, we heard that he was in fact, in at least one case, according to one witness, he pulled over this car, you know, lights and siren flashing as police would do. The car slowed, the car stopped. He walked up to the driver's side and that's when he shot the victim there in the driver's seat. A witness described that the suspect had pulled over one of the vehicles and had shot one of the drivers. He continued driving down that same road, Highway 4, and he encountered a second vehicle, and he shot and killed that victim at that location. And this is something that is just terrifying, because when a police vehicle shows up behind you in your rearview mirror, and you see the lights and you hear the siren, we are told to stop.

And just the fact that he was finding victims in this way is just so troubling. And in fact, it wasn't just these two women there in that part of the province. He actually pulled up to a police officer as well, the officer who was injured. And we can talk about that as well. Right. Let's talk about this. This is Constable Chad Morrison, right? And we can talk about that as well. Right. Let's talk about this. This is Constable Chad Morrison, right? Yeah. So he was injured, survived, and is recovering from his injuries now. And so he had arranged a meeting with Constable Heidi Stevenson at a specific location at a specific time.

As they had prearranged to meet at that location, Constable Morrison thought that the vehicle was Constable Stevenson. And one of the many just, you know, coincidental events in this 12-hour, 14-hour incident was the fact that the shooter pulled up to meet with Chad Morrison at the same location, at the same time that Constable Stevenson was supposed to be there. So Constable Morrison thought that it was going to be, you know, an officer that he would recognize in this police vehicle that was pulling up to him. But it wasn't. The gunman pulled up beside Constable Morrison and immediately opened fire. Constable Morrison received several gunshot wounds.

He was able to get away from the situation, was able to radio in what had just happened to him, and then was able to drive himself to either an ambulance or a hospital or just a paramedic that was nearby. But he was able to get himself to safety, essentially. Right. And when you and I spoke last week, you had recounted what a witness had relayed to you about Constable Heidi Stevenson's interaction with the gunman. You know, before we move on, you know, talking about that really important window from like 6, 7am until 10am when six people died, I know that Kristen

Beaton's widow has said that if he had known that there was a shooter on the loose in an RCMP vehicle, he wouldn't have let his wife leave for work that morning. I would have not let my wife leave the dooryard if I had that broadcast come across that he was on the loose and he was driving. She wouldn't have went to work. I wouldn't have let it happen. COVID's taken nine lives and he took 19, 20, including my unborn baby. Kristen was pregnant? Yes. Nick, I'm so sorry. Very, very early in it, but she was very, very extremely proud and so was I. And the RCMP Commissioner Brenda Luckey was asked about this on As It Happens on Friday night and she conceded it was possible that lives could have been saved if people had been alerted about these details sooner. Could it have been different if we use

the provincial alert system? You know, the more ways you can alert people, the better. And has there been any explanation for why the public wasn't informed earlier, for why the public wasn't informed earlier, particularly around these details? I mean, it's not very satisfying of an answer, but no, there's not been any explanation as to why this information was relayed to police and why it wasn't shared with the public immediately. I mean, you have to think of the logistics as well, because keep in mind, the effect of that is that the police are telling the public to all of a sudden, essentially not trust police. I mean, to look out for someone who looks like an officer in every way,

who is armed like an officer, who is uniformed like an officer, who is driving an RCMP vehicle. And if you see this person, you need to stay away. You need to assume that they're armed and dangerous, and you need to call 911 immediately. You know, I've been a police officer for almost 30 years now and I can't imagine any more horrific set of circumstances when you're trying to search for someone that looks like you. The dangers that

that causes, the complications that that causes. And so it would have been I imagine a large decision of an important decision to make to say, we're on the lookout for someone who looks like an RCMP officer who's shooting and killing people across the province. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Do we know anything about the guns that he used in these crimes, where he got them from?

Were they legal? We now know that there were multiple firearms used. We know that there were pistols, there were long guns that he had in his possession. We know that he acquired Heidi Stevenson's gun when he shot and killed her. We know that at least one of the guns came from Canada. Other guns came from the United States and that he was not licensed to acquire and to possess guns. Okay. And then one thing I want to flag with you and something that has been a little bit difficult for me to understand is something that happened nowhere near where the actual gunman was. And that's these shots that were fired by the RCMP at a fire hall. The extent I can tell you at this point is simply that two police officers are alleged to have discharged their firearms, fired their guns, but not at each other. And can you tell me what happened there?

Yeah, so this is a situation that was partially caught by witnesses and seen this happening. So this is in Onslow, Nova Scotia, which is another one of these small communities that we've been talking about. And two officers, and these are legitimate officers,cmp officers part of the manhunt trying to track down this shooter arrive at the fire hall and began opening fire on the building and in fact doing some damage to the building and doing some damage to one of the vehicles inside the building they actually had to take that vehicle out of service it was damaged so much. And so we're not exactly sure what happened there. We

know that the serious incident response team had looked at that as to what specifically they were firing at. And we're not certain at this point. Okay. And that must have been terrifying for the people who were there, who I understand were as like evacuees from portapak sure well you know and keep in mind like a rural fire station on a sunday morning um likely isn't often that busy but this place was packed because people were being evacuated from portapique into this fire hall. So people taken out of, you know, what was a legitimately risky, dangerous situation being brought to what they're told is an area of safety, which was then, for no apparent reason, shot at by RCMP officers briefly before they moved on. Okay. So Brett, I mean, obviously we know so much more about what has happened since you and

I spoke last week. And the story is only getting more disturbing, right? The more that we learn, you know, particularly, I can't even imagine what the woman who survived must be going through right now. We've talked today about some big unanswered questions, you know, this period of time in the morning, the four hour window, the guns, where they're coming from, this one incident at the fire hall. Do you have any other big unanswered questions that are still lingering for you now? I mean, obviously, how he was able to get his hands on these weapons,

Obviously, how he was able to get his hands on these weapons, how he was able to leave that perimeter as well. And I mean, we've been talking about this since the beginning, answering the question, why? We still don't know if we're ever going to get that information. But that is something on many people's minds is to, you know, some kind of an explanation. There also seems to be this huge time gap in between the many killings in Portapique on the Saturday night, and then the morning where he picks up again. We don't know what the gunman was doing that time. So from roughly 1030 to roughly 630,

we aren't sure what the gunman was doing. Okay. Brett, you know, I know we're still early in this investigation, but do you see any lessons that we can learn from this right now, if any? Well, I mean, if there was ever an indication that there could have been lessons learned, it came Friday. Because Friday, we actually got word that there were reports of shots fired, a separate incident of shots fired. This was in a couple of different neighborhoods that people were calling police saying they had heard shots.

There was another call of someone who walked into a Canadian tire with a gun. There was another shot call of someone in Dartmouth and then in Halifax with a gun. This was all happening around the same time. And so at that time, the radio went with the emergency alert with that beep, beep, beep sound. My phone was going off with that emergency alert sound with the RCMP putting out that alert that they were on the scene, they were looking into reports of gunfire. And so that information was put out to the public on that emergency alert notification in a way that was not done with the previous shooting. Now, it should be noted that all of these reports of gunfire, none of it happened. There were no shots fired on Friday in the Halifax, Dartmouth area. This is all just hyper vigilance of people just being much more wary than they ordinarily

would be following this mass shooting. But we do know that that emergency alert notification did go out, meaning that police are doing things differently now. Okay, Brett Ruskin, thank you so much for taking the time again. We're so appreciative. Thank you so much for taking the time again. We're so appreciative. Thank you so much. Okay, so before we sign off today, some coronavirus news this weekend. Health Canada is cautioning against the use of malaria drug hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. We did an episode about this a while back. You can find it in our feed. Health Canada said that the two drugs may cause serious side effects, including serious

heart rhythm problems. It advised use of the two drugs only if prescribed by a doctor. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has also warned against the drugs, which of course has been repeatedly touted by U.S. President Donald Trump, even though there's no definitive evidence that they work. And Canada's Chief Public Health Officer, Theresa Tam, is cautioning against any reopening strategies that rely on herd immunity. This idea that people will be protected once they get the virus. This follows some confusing information released by the WHO this weekend. We're working on an episode about this.

Stay tuned. We'll drop it this evening. That's all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner and talk to you soon. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.