Front Burner - 2 generations of conservatives on the Conservative Party's future

Episode Date: October 25, 2019

In the aftermath of the election, two generations of conservative voices on what they think is threatening the Conservative Party, and what needs to happen if they want to win majority governments.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Ever since the Liberals won a minority government on Tuesday, the Conservatives have had to face some tough questions. Why couldn't they beat a very vulnerable Justin Trudeau?

How do they convince larger chunks of the country outside of Alberta and Saskatchewan to vote for them? And is Andrew Scheer the guy who can do that? Yes, I am staying as leader of the party. We obviously are very happy with the many aspects of the campaign. Obviously, we wish we had better results, but we point to the fact that we won the popular vote. Today, two conservative voices, one in his 20s, the other in his 60s, on what they believe are existential threats to the party and what the party needs to do if it wants to get into power. This is FrontBurner.

Anthony Koch is a student at McGill University. He's also worked for the Conservative Party. He voted in his first election this week. And Charles Adler is a longtime broadcaster. He hosts a podcast called Charles Adler Tonight on the Chorus Radio Network. Hello to you both. Hey, Jamie. Hi.

Hi. Thank you so much for being with me today. So let's start here. Take me back to Monday night, watching those results come in and the Conservatives end up with 121 seats, you know, largely in Alberta and Saskatchewan. It's a sea of blue out there. The Conservatives completely shut out the Liberals. And aside from one speck of orange in the riding of Edmonton Strathcona,

it was a blue sweep. And Charles, what was going through your head? What was going through my head was this was working out as I had hoped. You know, I'm a small C conservative voter. The first place I voted, you know, it's Anthony's first vote. So I'm thinking about that. And my first vote was in the early 70s for a guy named Pierre Trudeau, because I grew up in Montreal in the Mount Royal riding. And then, of course, when I moved to Ontario a number of years later, the same way as a lot of other Montreal expats because of separatism and all that stuff, I became a progressive, a modern, what I think of as a modern conservative, not a so-called conservative.

So I was very happy with the result because what the result told me was that the Liberals were going to stay in power, a relatively strong minority. And my hope was that this would force the Conservatives to understand that they've got to modernize. I thought this election, if it came out this way, would really clarify reality for them. And that was my thought. It was a good result for small C conservatives. I want to talk to you in a moment about whether or not you think that's going to happen, whether or not you think they're going to take a hard look in the mirror after this. But there was this moment during the global news coverage, Charles, you got quite emotional. Can you tell me what prompted that? Yeah, I didn't expect a question that came at me on an issue that I haven't really talked about since 2015,

and that was when I stopped voting Conservative. So Farah Nasser asked me, you know... You've kind of adopted, when we come to talk about social issues and things like that, maybe more of a different leaning. What was your come-to-centre moment? She looked in my eye and I just, you know, my grandmother, like my late grandmother was like an angel standing on my shoulder saying, this woman's not trying to centre moment. She looked in my eye and I just, you know, my grandmother, like my late grandmother was like an angel standing on my shoulder saying, this woman's not trying to exploit you.

She's looking you in the eye. You owe her a 1,000% truthful, candid, from the heart answer. It was the flirting with Islamophobia. I don't even like to discuss it because it sickens me. So I gave it to her and I had a hard time getting it out. The party that I supported for a number of years turned on my neighbours, on my brothers, on my sisters, my fellow Canadians. It was in 2015, the barbaric practices hotline.

When I saw my friends, people I know, make that announcement, just completely, it just shattered me. Two Conservative ministers promised what they call a crackdown on barbaric cultural practices. Violence, the sexual slavery, the honour killings. They pledged to create a new police unit and a number to call to report such crimes. Establishing an RCMP tip line. I couldn't believe I was living in Canada. I couldn't believe that this was a party that I had supported.

Now, of course, I supported the progressive side, but I continued to support them after the merger. And this was too much for me. to support them after the merger. And this was too much for me. All I could think of was my neighbours, my brothers and sisters, in this case, the Muslims were being singled out. This was absolutely brutal.

And this was not Canadian values or the small C conservative values that other people have supported. Did you see that in this campaign as well? It felt the same to me because the same crowd that was basically proud of that was running the show. And because I'm on social media like all of us are, it's absolutely clear to me that the house is still contaminated with this stuff. And we've got to get this stuff out of the house. Anthony, how do you respond to Charles's comments? He seems almost hurt by

his own party. I empathize with a lot of what he has to say. And I've been a big fan of Mr. Adler for years, so it's nice to be able to finally be on with him. But I can tell you that my immediate reaction to the results on Monday was a form of disappointment and even surprise while not being surprised. So I had thought this was going to be the kind of result we were going to receive for a long time. But like you said, I've worked on the Hill, so I've got pretty good connections with a lot of the people in the broader conservative apparatus. And they kept telling me, no, Anthony, we've got this polling. I'm telling you the message is resonating. We're going to win this election. That the unfavorable ratings for Trudeau were so

high and that our message was resonating in the 905. And it didn't. Ontario and quebec the conservatives they needed to do much better than they did in those two provinces in particular they actually did quite well either approaching double digits or exceeding them in every other province in this country but ontario and quebec where they only showed marginal gains and i have to agree with mr adler i'm maybe not as how do i say this i do believe that there is a place for social conservatives in the in the conservative party okay um i don't necessarily agree with a lot of the characterizations that pro-lifers do get i don't agree with their position on abortion

but i do think we demonize them to an extent that is not necessarily justified all the time but on one particular issue what pains me is particularly the gay marriage issue this is something that people have really moved on from for a very long time. It's been 15 years since it's been legal in Canada. I don't really know what we're waiting for on this issue. Do you not think that Andrew Scheer was clear? I represented the views of my constituents and my thoughts at the time on marriage. I guess I just don't understand.

Why is it so difficult for you to explain how your thinking has evolved? Rosie, I've said society has had its conversation. We had our debate. That's society. I'm asking about you personally. You personally. Yeah, we had two votes in the House of Commons. We had two elections where this was an issue. Society has moved on. It is the law of the land. I support that. I think he was clear, but I think it's shifted now. I think a lot of people in the Conservative Party need to learn that on social issues in particular, saying that you're not pro-gay marriage personally because of your religious faith, but I'm not going to pass any legislation, that's not enough anymore. Do you think that people were confused that voters struggled to understand this line between

Andrew Scheer's personal views on same-sex marriage and abortion and what he might do in government? I don't think so. I think most people were willing to, listen, there's going to be some people that would have been in a greater issue for, but I think it's one of those negatives that stacks up. So if we would have had a much more effective message on things like the economy, foreign policy, etc., it probably wouldn't have been as big of an issue as it ended up being. Take, for example, the Tevye debate. So Andrew Scheer's first really foray in Quebec, right? The only thing people took away from that was that Andrew Scheer's pro-life. I have always been open about my position on this.

What matters? Yes, but personally, yes, personally, I will ensure that a conservative government doesn't re-offer the debate. That's all they heard. There is no like, okay, what else is he offering me? Yeah, I also heard him struggle to explain that. It took him a while to come out. My personal position has always been open and consistent. I am personally pro-life. Exactly.

And then people are asking the question, okay, so the only two positions that you've really expressed yourself in any meaningful capacity on are gay marriage and abortion, but then those are also the two issues that you said you're not going to legislate on. So, like, I don't get it. You're a very proud social conservative.

These are clearly reasons for which you got involved in politics. You define yourself as a very devout Catholic. And then at the same time, it's like, yeah, but I'm not going to talk about these issues. Charles, do you think that this really hurt Andrew Scheer in this election? Yes, it hurt him a great deal because his whole way, you know,

the idea that you had to get one of those jaws of life, you know, that we pry people out of accidents with, you almost had to get the jaws of life to pry out of him the simple statement that, you know, I'm Catholic. I mean, you know, I just don't understand why he can't be more effusive. I mean, just say, I'm a proud Catholic. I'm proud to be a Catholic. I support the doctrines and dogmas of my church. But let me tell you what I really support and why I'm here tonight.

I want to become prime minister. And there's nothing, nothing I want more than for this entire country to be unified under the rule of law, especially laws that involve human beings who love each other and give them the most protection possible. And anyone in my party who doesn't want loving human beings to have as much protection as possible from Canadian law, I've got no time for them. They're not going to be in my party who doesn't want loving human beings to have as much protection as possible from Canadian law, I've got no time for them. They're not going to be in my cabinet. And no, they're not going to be members of my caucus. And that's who I am.

So it sounds like what you're both saying is that you'd like to see a leader that maybe goes to pride parades, parades, maybe spends more time talking about, you know, the importance of LGBTQ communities, and maybe goes out of his or her way to talk about the importance of like a woman's right to choose. Is that what you'd like to see, Anthony? Well, so that's one thing too. And you'll see I often describe myself as a liberal who's not a liberal and a conservative who's not a conservative. Now, it's partially because I like to confuse people, but it's also because I'm talking on the difference between ideology and partisan affiliation. So in Canada, unfortunately, we have parties that are also named after ideologies they don't necessarily overlap with. I'm somebody who inherently believes in the values of markets. It's not the most fun thing to talk about all the time, but I believe

in free market capitalism. I like low taxes. I want a smaller government. And I believe that free individuals operating in the open marketplace is the way that we're going to achieve the wealth creation and prosperity for all. And I still have no idea why my positions on the economy have anything to do with my positions on social issues that a lot of other conservatives have to, it almost seems nonsensical. He's mirroring my thoughts. I mean, I'm a small business conservative, and I have never understood why the Conservative Party doesn't actually operate like the people it claims it wants to reach, which is people who are, you know, small business folks who believe in, you know, Anthony has his way of describing it. I mean, if I had to put a label on myself, I'm a democratic capitalist.

I believe in free markets and individuals making their free choices as to what kinds of transactions they want to get involved in, within, obviously, the limits of the law. But that, too, is why I don't understand why there's this enormous brick wall between the two sides of conservatism, both of which are supposed to be supporting freedom. I don't see the hard-line SOCOM positions as freedom. I see them as something completely different. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Let's talk about another issue that, you know, I'd like to get your perspective on how you think it might have affected the outcome of the election.

So much of this election was about climate change, and the Conservatives did not have a robust plan comparatively. They said they were going to get rid of the carbon tax and tax-heavy emitters. We will implement green investment standards that require polluters whose emissions exceed strict limits to invest in emissions reduction technology specific to their industry. They were light on how they were going to do that or how much they were going to tax them. The fact is we can actually create more jobs in Canada through technological growth while at the same time lowering global emissions. There was not a ton of details on that. Charles, could Scheer have won with a better climate plan? Well, it's the same as

what we've been talking about earlier. It's jaws of life to try to pry those kinds of things out of them. And that creates the impression that he doesn't really believe there's any kind of climate crisis. He doesn't believe that there's man-made climate change. I mean, it's very, very hard to take seriously the idea that this particular Conservative Party is serious about reducing emissions. I mean, bottom line, you know, everything ends up, you know, being about about logic, and everything ends up going to math. I just don't think they believe in doing the math. Anthony, fact of the matter is there was only ever one truly conservative solution to climate change. And then we spent the better part of the last

decade trashing it. And that's a revenue-neutral carbon tax. And I'm probably going to get attacked for saying this, but it's the truth. Because basically, right, you're allowing the market to impact people's behavior. So you're assigning a price on pollution, and then it's up to companies themselves, right, the big polluters or whatever,

to figure out their own way to reduce their emissions to save costs. Charles speaks perfectly to an issue that nobody really wants to address, which is that there is a non-insignificant portion of the conservative base that is convinced that climate change is not real. That's absolutely a reality. I don't think it's the majority, but there is significant portions of our base that think, as Donald Trump said, this is something...

Can I just jump in for a second? Absolutely. Here's the thing. The problem with it doesn't matter whether you're talking about this issue or what we were talking about earlier, LGBT rights, abortion rights, it always comes down to the same thing with this particular leader and the people behind this leader. They always sound like and they always look like, as body language matters, like they're owned by somebody. In this, like they're owned by

somebody. In this case, they're owned by the climate change deniers. And when you look like you're owned, when you don't look like your own person, it's very, very uncomfortable as a fellow Canadian, as a fellow small C conservative. You know, I'm just sitting here going, I've never seen any of my small C conservative heroes look like they were owned by somebody is is your sense here that you know another leader could have beaten justin trudeau in this election and what what would that leader have looked like to you i happen to believe that wholeheartedly and is that it's like the old economist joke when you're you got the two economists running in the woods and there's a bear chasing after them and one of them looks to the guy and he says we're not gonna be

able to outrun the bear he says buddy i don, I don't got to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you. Nothing like an economist joke. It's the same thing in politics is Justin Trudeau doesn't have to be loved. He just has to be less hated than the other guy. And I think that's what ended up happening. And one thing that you notice, right,

is the big advantage Andrew Scheer had going into this campaign was that a lot of people didn't know him. So on some level, he had the chance to define himself. The problem is, the more people got to know him, his unfavorability skyrocketed. So the more people were seeing him, the less they were liking him, which in politics is kind of a problem, right, for obvious reasons. Listen, I don't have a particular favorite to replace him for leader at this moment but i can tell you that as somebody who worked in the opposition leader's office both when sheer was elected leader in the summer of 2018 but then before that also in 2016 when

rana ambrose was the interim leader there was something going on in the conservative movement and in the conservative party in canada after we in 2015. There was an exchange of ideas. We were going in the right direction. You start to see an open, more willingness to modernize, as Charles put it. And then the second Andrew Scheer became elected Conservative Party leader, it felt like all of that stopped. Charles, would you agree with Anthony's assessment there? I know you also have some pretty close sources in the...

Yeah, I know. I've got sources. And like I like to say to my audience, I don't want to pretend to, you know, not know what I do know. The Ronna Ambroses and the Lisa Raits and others have always been extremely accessible to me. Andrew Scheer won't come on the show. You know, the people I think of as fellow travelers, they're very transparent, they're very accessible,

they're willing to engage in a Canadian casual conversation, which is what I'm all about. Charles, you know, you've seen the Conservative Party evolve over several elections. Do you see this as a turning point? Do you think that the party is taking a hard look in the mirror? If you listen to Andrew Scheer, you know, after Tuesday. This is how it starts. This is the first step. And now we are heading back to Ottawa with a much bigger team, with more support from coast to coast,

and with an endorsement from the Canadian people that we are the government in waiting. He's talking about, you know, a win, right? 60% of the vote in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Seriously, I just did the simple math last night. Yeah, the Conservatives did win the popular vote. I know, I know, and it's sophistry, because I'm not accusing you of being a sophist, Jamie. I'm just saying that they're engaging in a bunch of sophistry right now. To prevent a leadership challenge, Scheer is spinning his losses not so bad.

More Canadians supported my platform and our team last night than any other party. But that popularity is rooted in lopsided wins. He fell flat in Ontario and Quebec. Right. And do you think it's fair to say that, you know, the votes, the many, many votes that they did get in Alberta and Saskatchewan were in part because the party tapped into this anger that the Liberals haven't addressed the oil and gas sector properly? I think it's a legitimate, I think it's a legitimate anger. But the question again, and this is one of the things that I've said to the Andrew Scheer people, and they don't like it necessarily, is that you could have ran a blue mailbox in the last election. And we would

have gotten the same, we would have won the same amount of votes that we got out of Western Canada. Anthony, I asked, you know, as you can imagine, I've got a strong conservative base in Western Canada listening to my show. And I asked people, I said, you know, come on the air with me and give me 60 seconds, just a pitch, 60 seconds on why you're crazy about Andrew Scheer. Didn't happen. Or they'll tell you because his name's not Justin Trudeau. Well, yeah, but that's a tedious non-conversation. What about-ism?

So, look, let's go back to that original question I asked Charles, you first. Do you think this is a turning point? Do you think that there will be some real change in the Conservative Party after this? Yes, I'm extremely optimistic that they'll make a change and they'll make one soon. Anthony? Absolutely. I mean, I was getting, I think they're worried and I've been hearing about a lot of people organizing, and I think there's a movement to get rid of Andrew Scheer and to create the kind of conservative party that people like me and Charles have been advocating for for a while.

And I mean, just yesterday, Hamish Marshall's wife was going after me on Twitter. Hamish Marshall is Andrew Scheer's campaign manager. Yes. So I don't think you go after a 21-year-old kid who had a six-minute interview on CBC if you don't think what I was talking about is resonating with a lot more people than just me.

I think they're scared silly. And Charles, last word to you. Listening to this 21-year-old kid right now, how does this make you feel about the future of the party? He's the reason I'm optimistic. He is today and he is tomorrow. And the Conservative party can plug into today and tomorrow and be a modern party. And Anthony, bless you for everything you do.

Thank you. Anthony Koch, Charles Adler, thank you so much for coming by and having this conversation. It has been fascinating. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you. So on Wednesday, Andrew Scheer took to Facebook to thank conservative voters directly for their help this election. He says it's the first step in defeating Justin Trudeau and he asserted that his party now has the strongest opposition in Canadian history. I've already had meetings with some of the key officials

that were responsible for the campaign. We're going to have a thorough review. We're going to go through everything and say, look, we made some great progress, but we need to be better next time. This is really the first step, the first important step on replacing Justin Trudeau's liberal government. So a little bit of a different take from the conversation that you just heard. All right, that's it for today. Thanks so much for sticking with us through this election week.

FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced by Shannon Higgins, Imogen Burchard, Chris Berube, Elaine Chao, and Hannah Alberga. Derek Vanderwyk is our sound designer. Billy Heaton helped us out this week, too. Thanks so much, Billy. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of FrontBurner is Nick McCabe-Locos.

I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Have a wonderful weekend. I'm going to be spending most of it sleeping. See you on Monday. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.