Front Burner - 2 lives shattered by airline tragedies, a conversation

Episode Date: February 17, 2020

Hamed Esmaeilion lost his wife and daughter in the downing of Ukrainian International Airlines Flight PS752 in Iran. Renée Sarojini Saklikar lost her aunt and uncle in the bombing of Air India Flight 182. Today on Front Burner, they share a conversation about confronting grief, living with unanswered questions and looking for justice in the midst of tragedy.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. It's been just over a month now since Ukrainian International Flight 752 was shot out of the sky over Iran, killing everyone on board. The plane turned into a fireball before crashing. Recovery crews stepping over smouldering aircraft parts after a futile search for life.

138 of 176 people were headed to Canada. There have been some answers about what exactly happened that day. But the investigation is ongoing and there are also questions about Iran's willingness to cooperate. Iran hasn't handed over the plane's black boxes for analysis. The prime minister called that a key part of any investigation and says it's worrying that it hasn't happened yet. And in the face of all of these mounting questions, the family members are dealing with their pain and their grief. In the aftermath of the Iran crash,

some of the families who lost loved ones in Air India Flight 182 have talked about how the tragedy reminded them of what they went through. On June 23, 1985, this flight was the target of a bombing, a terrorist act that killed 329 people. It's one of the worst air disasters ever, and it's taken more Canadian lives than any other crash in history. Time and again, rescuers dropped into the frigid waters to retrieve bodies, wreckage, anything that could help investigators

piece together this terrible mystery. 300 souls out there in that ocean that, you know, you won't get answers. For many families, justice never came. Today, a conversation between Ahmed Esmailian, who lost his wife and daughter, on Flight 752. He's in studio with me in Toronto. And Renee Sarojini Saklikar, she lost her aunt and uncle on Air India flight 182. And she was in our Vancouver studio. To be honest, we went into this conversation with all these questions about their individual experiences, but it became clear pretty early on that, well,

Ahmed's grief was so raw and immediate that we all just needed to follow his lead. This is FrontBurner. Hi, Renee. I have Ahmed here with me in studio, and I want to thank you both so much for taking the time to speak with me today. You're welcome. Hi, Renee. Hello. Hello, Hamed. I'm so sorry for both of your losses. I'd like to start this conversation by saying that.

Thank you very much. Yes, and I would like to add that I'm very deeply sorry for the enormity of your loss. Thank you very much, Ren. Could you tell us about your family? Yes, I was with my wife. We were classmates at dental school 25 years ago, so I know her for like 25 years. It was in 2003 that we decided to come to Canada and they gave me grade and we landed in Toronto 2010 when we had Rira and she was six months old at that time. Parisa was a very, very talented, hardworking dentist. My best friend.

My love for 20 years. And we had the most beautiful child ever, I think. The sweetest one ever. Tell me a little bit more about Rira. Rira was, she was a soccer girl. She was a very talented person, I can tell you. She experienced new things every day, like sing-along with Shawn Mendes. She likes Shawn Mendes? Yes, Shawn Mendes.

And I have a video of her singing along with one of the Miley Cyrus songs. along with one of the Miley Cyrus songs. And, you know, three of us, you know, when you immigrate to another country and when you have no relatives here in the new country, you get closer. You know, we were three people and we were a very quiet family, just have our own hobbies,

watch movies together, watch series together. A very tight unit. Yes, we were. Renee, can you tell me a little bit about the family that you lost on Flight 182? I can. I want to preface it, though, by saying I love hearing about this girl, Rira. I was smiling, and I love the way she comes alive in her father's voice and singing to Shawn Mendes and feels like this is so raw. I really feel in this conversation there is this need on my part to contextualize the death of my beloved aunt and uncle. contextualize the death of my beloved aunt and uncle.

They were beautiful people, of course. They were doctors. My uncle was a surgeon. My auntie was a gynecologist. They left behind this beautiful little boy who's now a grown man with his own children, Irfan. And they were in the prime of their life. And they were visiting here for the first time, and the only time, as it turned out.

Ahmed, to pick up on what Renee said there, that this is so raw and immediate for you, what has dominated your thoughts in the last few weeks? You know, as soon as I heard the news, I can't even get to the moment, get close to the moment that I heard the news, actually. I haven't explained that to anybody yet, because, as Renée said, it's very raw,

and I need some distance from that moment one day to be able to explain that moment, I think. Yes. And if I may say, Ahmed, in the greatest respect and solidarity, I hope you're never pressured in any way to share that moment. For me, those moments are almost sacred. Thank you. So as soon as I heard the news, actually, okay, so my friends, they came to my house and we had a discussion what to do.

And we decided finally that I had to go to Iran to support a family. I needed to hug my mom, my mother-in-law. I was crying. I was crying constantly. But then I had to go to the airport. And when I was in Iran, Iran actually I didn't mourn because that was a mixed situation like political and very very difficult because exactly at the time that I arrived in Iran I heard the announcement

I really wish I could die. Those are the words of Amir Ali Hajizadeh, a senior commander of Iran's Revolutionary Guard. He admitted today that Iran's military mistakenly shot down Ukraine Flight 752. And that changed everything because I wanted to bury them in Iran. But then I said, no,

we have to repatriate Paris and Rira to Canada. And from that moment that we decided to do that, everything changed. Because it was not an easy job to do, especially with the politics going on and all the Prime Minister Justin Trudeau commenting about that, Donald Trump commenting about that. Earlier this morning, I spoke with President Rouhani of Iran. I told him that Iran's admission that its own armed forces unintentionally shot down Flight 752

is an important step towards providing answers for families. But I noted that many more steps must be taken. But now when I'm here, so I'm up every 5 a.m. in the morning, exhausted. I have to wait, wait for 8 o'clock and go downstairs, have breakfast. For every morsel of bread, I have to soak it in tea to be able to swallow that, I think. So I have to get so exhausted again to be able to sleep. That's my life.

And, you know, I have things to do during the day. And, like, in the morning, I go to the bank and I cry. I go to the car dealership, I cry. I talk to a phone operator, I cry. I can't stop that. You know, every morning I think the airplane crashes in my house. It feels like the plane crash in your house every morning. Every morning. Rene, what's going through your mind when you hear Hama talk right now?

going through your mind when you hear Hama talk right now? It's hard to I know you'll understand this is not about anything except what it is I wish we were in the same room together I'm actually finding it really hard that I've never met either of you and we are having the most intimate and and searingly painful of conversations. And that's not feeling great. And Ahmed, all I can say to you is I just hope there are people there for you who are going to help you in the way that you need and wish. And you're so beautiful a poet. I feel it's our job to listen and your job to cry.

I have my parents here actually with me and my mother-in-law. But same thing is going with them too. You know, they're here to support me and I'm there to support them, I think. We're all together and we mourn together. And that's good that they're here. And I have very good friends around me, very, very nice friends. They were classmates of me and Perry so that they're here. It's very hard to explain, but even the words are excruciating to me.

Yes, and you don't need to explain if you don't want to. Like one of the things I really have felt over our many, many year journey, and it's so different. So it's just me expressing, but we don't have to do anything. We don't have to explain. Other people can figure it out. No one can know what this is like. I have to be honest here. I had these questions that I wanted to ask you both about your respective experiences

because there are parallels here. But it strikes me in this moment that perhaps, Ahmed, I could turn this microphone over to you. Perhaps there's something you might like to ask Renee. Is there anything that she might be able to offer you right now that would give you some kind of solace as somebody who has gone through something similar? Yeah, when I read Rene's article, and I saw that the whole process took like a long time,

and for us it has been like 35 days so far. And every day there's a piece of news coming out, somebody talking, somebody saying something, some comments about the flight and about the plane. I don't know how to deal with that. You know, Rene, if I could throw that to you, I know the Air India bombing raised so many questions about who was responsible and what enabled them to do what they did. We now know that there were issues with both the investigation and the trial, evidence destruction, perjury. Well, this was an astonishing day here at the Vancouver Courthouse.

After nearly 20 years of trying to solve the Air India bombing, and after well over $100 million for the investigation and the trial, Canada's biggest ever criminal case has ended in a full-fledged disaster for the prosecution. There was pandemonium as Rupudaman Singh Malik, the millionaire who the Crown called the paymaster of the Air India bombing, left the courtroom as a free man. There was not a public inquiry until 2010, 25 years after the bombing. Very softly, John Major read out his findings with no hint of emotion, but the content was brutal, an indictment of what he calls inexcusable bungling. A cascading series of errors contributed to the failure of our police

and security forces to prevent this atrocity. And what was that like for you? Yes, even the recitation of all of that injustice is just so hard to hear. For me personally, and I think this is pretty important for this conversation, I was mercifully quite young. I was 22, 23, and I think a lot of it was just about silence and denial. Even now in our family, we don't talk about it very much. It's so horrifically painful. I think for my parents, my mom who lost her youngest sister, it nearly destroyed her.

And for my orphaned cousin Irfan, I can't even begin to imagine, you know, his situation is more directly, I think, analogous to Ahmed's, that this catastrophic loss to murder is, all suffering is terrible. To lose a loved one, each of us, unfortunately, experiences that. But to lose a loved one, and more than unfortunately experiences that, but to lose a loved one and more than one, your whole family unit in one go in an act of terror, that's something else altogether. It is profoundly transformative for better, for worse. And so for me, I didn't even begin to understand

what was happening to our life or myself until years later. So yeah, that injustice terrifies me. Because that's my only hope right now. To wait for the justice. And you know, the India bombing and other incidents, I was checking. I'm a news hunter, you know. Yeah. So I've checked Lockerbie.

A small town scorched by fires raining from the sky. This was Lockerbie on December 21, 1988. An Am Flight 103 crashed to the ground and killed 270 people. It was not an accident. In the months that followed, investigators gathered the wreckage. With it, they pieced the shattered plane back together. What they found was evidence of a bomb. If you know about that, I've checked. Like the MH17 that happened in Ukraine. A massive debris field of smoking wreckage and twisted metal dotted with personal belongings of 298 people

is all that remains of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile that was launched from an area that is controlled by Russian-backed separatists inside of Ukraine. When those things happened there was a militia or like a group or something who did that. But this time we have like a regime. Like... But this time we have like a regime, like some people that they run a country. The day after Iran admitted it shot down the plane, sorrow for some is giving way to anger. The fact that they got shot by the country, by the government is even more painful.

I don't know how to explain my anger. I don't know how to explain my anger. Do you have, Ahmed, any hopes right now that you might be able to get a full accounting of what happened? You know, I'm not alone. That's for sure. There are other families too. Like 176 passengers were on board that day. But you don't know which way life goes for other people. If you ask me, that's why I'm here. So just talk about this and just talk about this and just continue.

Rene, for you, I know you can never really get closure in situations like this. Were you ever able to feel like you got some kind of justice? No justice, but my admiration for people who go through this kind of trauma is very great. They're a very strange twist of fate. And I didn't know this when I married my husband, but his first cousin was murdered in the Lockerbie. So what are the chances of that? Yeah, exactly. But in response to this, you know, I think ultimately quite important question, Jamie, is I'm only speaking for myself, no one else. I don't feel there was any justice. What I do see and what has inspired me and continues to inspire me is the resilience, the strength, the creativity of those left behind. When I was reading about Ahmed's family and just the terrible waste and loss

of so much potential and talent. And when you look at my aunt and uncle, you know a little side story about my aunt. She was a gynecologist. She was very progressive about women's reproductive health. She had a woman's clinic in Gujarat, a state in India. She was here for a medical convention. She had everything woman's clinic in Gujarat, a state in India. She was here for a medical convention. She had everything going for her.

She was a very talented, vibrant, alive person, as was her husband. He was very quiet. She was the star. He was like the supporting role. And he was a surgeon. And I always feel that no justice, but the families themselves, when I look at the families of the Air India dead, I see people who are generous and kind and participate in society and do things for other people a great deal. If only I could do a fraction of that or be a fraction of that. deal. If only I could do a fraction of that or be a fraction of that, you know, and that's kind of a mantra for me, like, did my aunt and uncle die so I could be like a terrible person? And you know,

some days are better than others. But what kind of person do I want to be? Ahmed, what do you think when you hear Renee talk about that? Ahmed, what do you think when you hear Renee talk about that? You know, my life has changed. This is something that I had to accept. It was very hard at the beginning that, okay, what do you want to do with your life? Still, it's a very, very difficult situation. And, you know, we can get disappointed every morning, every night that, okay, what they can do? You know, how I can bring these people to justice?

How can I bring these people to international court? They are like big commanders or like generals. But I think I should not give up my hope. You know, I just have to continue and live for that moment. Mm-hmm. I wonder if there's anything else that you might like to say to each other. Renee, I'll let you go first.

I guess I want to say I hope that justice will be served. I hope we Canadians will continue to listen to the stories such as Ahmed's and everyone who perished in this flight, that we will support them to have a space to tell their own stories. I feel very tentative about saying the following because Ahmed, you are now on this journey I feel it is my duty to say whatever you need to be and whatever story you need to tell tell it and for me I found a way through creativity and the creativity allowed me to not always be in grief. You never lose it. It becomes your companion. But writing and creativity and dance and movement.

Last year, I ran my first 5K race on June 23rd, which is the day of the bombing of Air India. Just like January 8th will be your date, June 23rd is our date. And I ran my first 5K race. If you have a good weather, it's run away January 8th, actually. Yeah. And so, I don't know, my dear.

I feel it is not my place to say anything too much more just to support you. Amen. So, I don't know. As I said, because, you know, I have to leave too. I have to have my own job.

There are lots of things on my plate right now. So, I have to go step by step. But as I said, my main goal is to see the justice one day. And I'm hopeful that way, that I'm going to see that day one day.

I don't know how soon it comes, but I hope for that day. I hope for that day for you too, Amar. And I just want to say, Rene, I wish you were also in this room with us and for everybody listening. Ahmed is wearing a pin right now with a painting of his wife and his daughter. It's on his lapel. This is the most beautiful photo. I want to thank you both so much for being here. You're welcome.

Take care, Jamie, and take care, Ahmed. You take care. Thank you. So I just wanted to say before we go today that in all of the Frontburner episodes that we've done, I think that that, for me, was the most difficult and moving conversation. It was a real privilege to have been able to listen. After we wrapped up our conversation, Ahmed told us about something special that was organized by the Canadian Opera

Company in Toronto to honour his wife and daughter. Parisa and Rira were supposed to attend the opera's performance of Hansel and Gretel this past Saturday. It was Parisa's gift to Rira for Christmas. On that night on Saturday, Ahmed was in attendance and the opera kept those two seats vacant to remember them. That's it for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you all so much for listening and talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.