Front Burner - 2020 on track to be Canada’s worst year for police killings

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

D'Andre Campbell. Ejaz Choudry. Chantel Moore. Those are just some of the names of people killed by police in Canada this year. Until now, there hasn't been a national database to keep track of these deaths. The CBC recently made one called "Deadly Force." It goes back 20 years, and it found what many people have been saying: Black and Indigenous people are disproportionately killed by police. Today on Front Burner, the CBC's Mark Kelley on what those numbers tell us and why 2020 is on track to be a particularly deadly year.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Josh Bloch. They shouldn't be going to a house with mental issue with guns. For what? They're going to fight a war? Why are they bringing guns to deal with a mental issue?

That is DeAndre Campbell's father, talking about how police shot his 26-year-old son in April, after DeAndre called them for help. DeAndre is part of a growing list of people who have been killed by police in Canada. Since 2018, 97 people have died in encounters with officers. And we only know this because of CBC's Deadly Force database, which brings together

20 years of information about deaths at the hands of the police. Today, Fifth Estate co-host Mark Kelly joins us to talk about what those numbers reveal about the role of race and mental health in fatal police encounters, and why 2020 is on track to be an especially deadly year. This is FrontBurner. Hello, Mark. Hi, Josh. So in the last two and a half years, nearly 100 people have been killed by police in Canada. Looking at that database, what stood out to you most?

Yeah, it is the name after name after name of these victims that continues to pile up. And you know what really struck me is despite all the attention that's being paid to police violence, both here in Canada and really around the world, you know, the allegations of police brutality, and really around the world, you know, the allegations of police brutality. Here we are in 2020 on track to be one of the deadliest years on record in terms of people killed in police encounters in Canada. In the first half of this year, Josh, 30 people were killed by police. Now, that's typically what we average in an entire year. And even when we account for population growth in Canada, the number of deaths due to police using deadly force

continue to tick upwards. And that, I just believe, has to be a wake-up call for law enforcement. It has to be a wake-up call for politicians. It has to be a wake-up call for all of us in the public to be aware that this is a problem that we need to deal with. And obviously, you know, behind these stats, there are real people.

We have seen less action when we die. Shame! We have seen less actions for the deaths of Ijaz Chaudhry. Two indigenous people were shot and killed by police in eight days. First Nations groups have identified the woman as Chantal Moore. This is Rodney Levi. He was from the Mitamanaagiyag First Nation. And people that you have been learning more about. What has stood out to you? Well, two-thirds of the deaths when police use deadly force involve people with mental health issues, people with addiction issues or both.

Now, let me give you an example here. Three names. Clive Mensah. Clive Mensah died in November after being tasered by police in his backyard. They had been called just after 3 a.m. for reports of a suspicious male. DeAndre Campbell, we talked about off the top there. DeAndre called 911 that day. Don't come and take someone's life when they're calling for help. He shouldn't have ended up six feet under. Now when I have to walk to a graveside with my siblings,

it hurts me to know that's the reason where I'm going for him. Ejaz Chowdhury. ...regional police officers shot and killed 62-year-old Ejaz Chowdhury while responding to a call about a man in mental distress. He did have a history of mental illness, but I don't think that he needed to be killed for that.

In the span of about six months, those three men, all suffering from a mental illness, were killed by officers in one police department, Peel Regional Police, just outside of Toronto. Three deaths, one force. And this is a police department that has a mental health unit that is designed to respond to wellness checks, to have people to check in on people if they're in mental distress. Now, these are the kinds of cases that are leading activists to say,

like, let's defund the police, let's invest in social workers, mental health workers to intervene in these calls, not armed police officers. That's what DeAndre Campbell's dad's been talking about. That's what families of other victims have been talking about. And these are the problems that I think the police really have to reckon with now. You are to serve and to protect, not to serve and to kill. We want justice. We want whoever did what they did to be held accountable. It's time for us to rise up as a community, as people, and to say enough is enough. He's not the only one, and he won't be the last one, unless we stand to do something about it.

Well, in a statement from earlier this summer, the Peel Regional Police Board said that while it couldn't comment on individual cases, that these deaths are a tragic reminder that there's still much work to be done. And they added that the incidents will inform the board's work on key issues, including community engagement, strategic planning, and the upcoming budget. including community engagement, strategic planning, and the upcoming budget. The number of people dying during police wellness checks is certainly in the spotlight right now, as you mentioned. Canada's largest mental health hospital, the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, has called for police to stop being on the front lines of dealing with people in a mental health crisis. How does this data back up what people are saying, people working on the ground? Yeah, I think it's an illustration of that problem. You know, we've looked at some statistics that suggest that police answer about 1 million mental health calls or calls involving

people in mental health distress a year, 1 million calls a year. So you can appreciate the problems and the pressure that this puts the police under. So it does beg the question, you know, should the people be going out armed with tasers, armed with guns to deal with people in mental distress? When you look at the opioid crisis and especially the problems that they're having out west, you know, should it be police going there with tasers and weapons to deal with people who are also having addiction issues? These are the illustrations of those calls. And that's why, you know, when people are saying we have to defund the police, well, there are other calls that would say in another way to reimagine the way that policing actually plays out in our streets across the country. Is this the best way to deal with this growing mental health issue? Lots of people are saying definitely.

It's not up to the police. It should be up to social workers and mental health workers. The CBC database found that most of the people killed by police suffered from mental illnesses or substance abuse. But race also plays a big factor. How so? Absolutely. Well, according to our research, Indigenous people,

they form about 16% of the deaths, but only 4% of the population, if we look at the deaths annualized over 20 years. Black people form about 8.5% of the deaths, but only 4% of the population. If we look at the deaths annualized over 20 years, black people form about 8.5% of the deaths, but only 3% of the population. So what we're seeing is a disproportionate number of black and indigenous people who are dying at the hands of police. Now, these are the numbers that fuel these allegations of systemic racism. You know, I was speaking to Scott Wortley. He's a criminologist at the University of Toronto. He's done some of his own data research. He's shown that in Toronto, for example, a black person is 20 times more likely to die in the hands of

police than a white person. He says racial bias in police forces is not solely an American issue. It's a Canadian one too. This is an issue for Canadian society and we can no longer kind of congratulate ourselves that at least we're not the United States. And the danger is that if we don't start taking these racial issues seriously, these will continue to fester.

Wortley also says it's really important to collect these kinds of numbers because these numbers form of accountability for the police. So they just can't say, look, these are anecdotal issues, that this isn't hard fact-based evidence. It is. And this is something that the politicians and the police cannot turn their backs to

anymore. Right. And to be clear, for a lot of people, especially people in black and indigenous communities, this information is not surprising. I mean, this is a reality. Had it been he was a white boy, would they kill him? Would they test him? In another testament, this is not affecting Muslim community or the brown community. We have people from different races. George Floyd, We have people from different races. George Floyd, everybody identifies with George Floyd because he embodied the pain of many.

And this is one of the reactions that we've had when we've reached out to people for comment about this. They're saying, look, folks, we've been saying this all along. But now there's actually that hard factual information, that data that we've got from this deadly force database to prove that these aren't just complaints. These aren't just appearances that there's a racial bias. The numbers actually back that up. Right. If you are black or indigenous, you are more likely to have a fatal encounter with police. Indeed. Yep. What do we know about where this is happening?

Well, if we look at the police services, I mean, that's the best way we can, if we look at the number of deaths involving which police services, for example. So the highest number of victims, 147 come in the hands of the Mounties, the RCMP. Of course, they cover huge swaths of this country, not only in rural areas, but in some cities as well. And then if you break it down from there, you've got the Toronto Police Service at 57, Montreal at 35, and then the Quebec Provincial Police at 34. I mean, what we're

looking here is you have a concentration of deaths that involve municipal police forces in the big cities of this country. So I don't think anyone's going to find that particularly surprising. Thank you. angel capital organization empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. Fifty percent. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for

Couples. So CBC put together this database because there wasn't one publicly available. I mean, why is that? Well, that's the big question, and I think it's the glaring problem, that we are collecting information that isn't being collected by police forces, specifically race-based information. This is something that, you know, and I've asked criminologists about this, and they said that there has been a reluctance on the part of police associations, namely police unions, and police services themselves to be able to collect this race-based information. Some people

say it's because they don't want to know actually what's happening out there. Of course, every police force will tell you that there is no racial bias, that they treat everyone equally. We continue to work on becoming a modern and progressive police service. The Toronto Police Service is about communities, all communities. Their trust is paramount to us. Let me be clear, CPS does not tolerate racism. CBC News questioned Peel Regional Police about whether race contributed to Mensa's death. The response, quote, we expect every one of our officers to conduct themselves

in a professional and ethical manner at all times. But the numbers simply don't bear that out. And that's why there has been more pressure to collect this information to inform police forces, to inform policymakers, to say, look, the numbers point to a problem here when it comes to race in this country and people dying in the hands of police. Let's do something about it. And I think more and more, and I think certainly for the CBC, we're collecting this information to get a debate going,

to get police to look hard at how they're treating people in their jurisdictions. And we think that this number can fuel that debate. But it really is, at the end of the day, should be up to police forces to be collecting this information. Well, it's difficult to change policy in the absence of data. Absolutely. And I mean, this is why we're collecting this data, to inform those policy changes,

to inform the debates that are going on right across this country right now, when people are complaining that there is systemic racism in police forces across the country. But the police do collect data after a fatal police shooting or a fatal police encounter, right? I mean, they collect data right down to what the weather is. Yeah, even in the use of force, it doesn't even have to be a fatal encounter, Josh. I mean, this is something, I was talking to somebody about this. They said, you know, if there is a use of force incident where somebody fired their weapon or a taser, for example, they use that,

didn't even have to end up with a fatality. You've got the police have to fill out forms and forms and forms. The weather, the light, for example. Was it a cloudy day? Was it a sunny day? Was it at dusk? Was it at dawn? There's a list of questions that you go down, and the police have to answer these things to be able to better understand the circumstances surrounding that use of force, or deadly force in this case.

But not the simple question, what was the race of that person? Or perhaps, more importantly, what did the police officer perceive to be the race of that person? I should say CBC has reached out to the RCMP and the Toronto and Montreal Police Departments. We heard back from all three. In a statement in French, the Montreal Police Department said, quote, thank you for sharing the information. Please know that these files are handled by the Independent Investigations Office. The Toronto Police Department responded in a statement that reads in part, our members are highly trained in de-escalation tactics to bring what are often complex, highly emotive and dynamic situations to a safe end. Use of force is a last resort.

And the RCMP responded as well. They actually sent a two-page statement, and it highlighted the de-escalation and crisis intervention training that their officers receive. Their statement reads in part, quote, police officers are often the first responders on scene when someone is experiencing a mental health crisis. We have a critical role to play when responding and interacting with people living with mental health problems and illnesses. This database goes back 20 years with 556 victims. goes back 20 years with 556 victims. How is what we've seen in terms of the number of victims changed over the years, over that 20-year period

that we've been collecting data? Well, when we look back, let's say 2002, for example, we saw a low of 14 victims. 2016, we saw a high of 40. And as I mentioned, we're on track to eclipse that number this year. And I think what's important here is these stats are a form of accountability. They cannot be dismissed as anecdotal or unfounded. And I think this needs to be the basis for discussion about, if not defunding the police at the very least, reimagining the police about how they serve the public.

Because at the end of the day, and you look at this growing list of victims, these are victims who are being killed by public servants. Police are public servants. They are there to serve and protect. And of course, some of these incidents, you know, there will be fatal encounters with police that we are never going to be able to avoid. But there are so many avoidable deaths in the list here. And I think that's the things we really have to focus on in the conversation when we talk about the police use of deadly force.

It's those avoidable deaths we really need to focus on. Right. And this database includes these fatal encounters where police use force. So it doesn't include cases where there was a, you know, in custody death or self-inflicted wounds or accidental police cause deaths like a car crash. Correct. If the police were chasing a suspect in a vehicle and that suspect were to be involved in a traffic accident, that wouldn't be counted. These are directly at the hands of the police, encounters with the police. You mentioned three cases at the beginning of this interview, one of them, Ijaz Chowdhury, three cases at the beginning of this interview, one of them, Ijaz Chowdhury, killed by police earlier this year. And you spoke with Chowdhury's daughter. Given that her father struggled with mental illness, I'm curious to know what she thinks about what happened to her father, given the bigger picture here, given the trend that this database tracks across the country.

Well, and I think, you know, this is a really important case to focus on when we talk about what I would say, in my opinion, are the avoidable deaths. Ijaz Chowdhury was 62 years old. He was a man who had grown up with struggling with schizophrenia. He had conspiracy theories. struggling with schizophrenia. He had conspiracy theories. He had a huge fear of the police. So one day in June, he was having an episode, and his daughter, 19-year-old daughter,

Nemra, was concerned about him. She made the phone call. That would change everything forever. I decided that it would be in his best interest for me to call the non-emergent ambulance line. And when I did that, when I went downstairs, I was greeted by police officers and paramedics. And as we went upstairs, from what I can remember, I just feel like they just treated my father as a threat from the beginning and never treated him as a being that was in need of help. And what's the important thing here is what happened, Josh, and this is the kind of thing I think we need to focus on.

First, the police arrive with paramedics. Then more police arrive. Then after that, the tactical unit arrives. And he did open the door, and what he was greeted by is two police officers right in front of him. And so he closed the door and locked it. This is a 62-year-old frail man, according to his daughter, who has locked himself in his own apartment. He's not a threat to anybody. He's alone in an apartment.

And if he's a threat to anyone, perhaps he was to himself. But at the end of the day, after the tactical unit arrives there... The situation just kept escalating. And when we told them that he was afraid of police officers, they just brought more police officers. His door is kicked down. He's shot with a taser. He's shot with rubber or plastic bullets,

then eventually shot dead by police. Put him down! Put him down! This after his own daughter had called for help, saying that her father was in distress, hoping that somebody could take him to a hospital to get him help. And he ends up dead. This, to me, is the example of those avoidable deaths

that I think police services need to focus on so we can bring that number of victims on that deadly force list down and make sure that when police, when people call the police for help, it's help that they get and not another number and not another name on that list. Mark, thank you for speaking with me today. Thanks, Josh. Before I let you go today, an update on a case that we talked to Mark about. Ijaz Chowdhury, who was suffering from a mental health crisis, was shot and killed by a Peel regional police officer last month. That officer has now refused to be interviewed by Ontario's police watchdog, the Special Investigations Unit,

about what happened. He also won't submit a copy of his notes. Under the Police Services Act, officers under investigation can't be legally compelled to talk to the SIU. The investigation into Chowdhury's case continues. That's all for today. I'm Josh Bloch. Thanks for listening to FrontBurn.

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