Front Burner - 321 days of protest — India’s farmers deepen resolve

Episode Date: October 12, 2021

CBC’s Salimah Shivji takes a closer look at India’s farmer protests, where a fatal collision has ignited more anger in the 300-day standoff with the government.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. For over 300 days, hundreds of thousands of farmers in India and their families have been taking part in what's being called one of the biggest protests in history. They're fighting against new farm laws that were brought in by the Indian government last year. government last year.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi says the point of these new laws is to modernize a decades-old agricultural system. But the farmers are afraid these laws will leave them at the mercy of profit-hungry corporations and could completely wipe them out. mercy of profit-hungry corporations and could completely wipe them out. For decades, India's farmers have been struggling to survive. Nearly 60% of India's population of 1.3 billion people depend on agriculture. But more than half of the country's farmers are in serious, serious debt. after the introduction of new seeds and chemicals brought in in the 60s under the banner of India's green revolution dried up the land and wiped out traditional crops. The slow collapse of a system that so many people rely on has fueled a national suicide crisis. By some reports, 28 farmers die by suicide in India every day, and that number

is likely higher. It's why widows, mothers, fathers, grandparents, even children have been camping out for over a year, refusing to back down until the laws are repealed and their voices are heard. And on Sunday last week, long drawn out tensions reached this boiling point when a convoy of cars drove into a group of protesters. They retaliated and when the dust cleared at least eight people, including four farmers, were dead. Today on FrontBurner, we're talking to CBC's India correspondent Salima Shivji about this crisis decades in the making,

now engulfing the country, and what the future holds for its farmers. Hey Salima, thanks so much for being here. No problem. So I want to go back and start where things really started to heat up, right? India's farmers have, of course, been feeling the stress of a system that's been in place for decades. And I know we're going to talk about that in a few minutes, but it all really came to a head at the start of the pandemic when we saw Modi impose a strict lockdown and then bring in these sweeping new farm laws.

India's lockdown couldn't have come at a worse time for farmers. They're at their busiest. Farmers in India are stepping up the pressure on the government to repeal a set of laws they say will harm their livelihoods. They're the biggest challenge for Prime Minister Narendra Modi since coming into power in 2014. His government, which has suspended implementation of the laws, says they're necessary to modernize an industry which dominates the Indian economy.

And can you tell me a bit about, broadly, what these laws are and why the farmers are so worried about them. What do they fear will happen with these new laws? Well, these are three agricultural laws introduced last September, so more than a year ago now, sort of without consultation. So that angered farmers from the get-go. The farmers see them as the fact that they'll cut into their livelihoods, really squeezing out the small farmer, and they're worried it gives large corporations all of the power. So mainly the changes in these laws, it's sweeping change to the whole agricultural system in India. It's quite drastic, the most drastic change in decades. And it really changes how crops are sold on the market.

Farmers are really worried that the laws will dismantle Mundis, which is this traditional system that the farmers use to sell most of their produce. So it's a bit of a complicated system. It's been around since the early 20th century. They're basically wholesale markets. They're controlled by the government, so they're regulated. And the Mundis act as a bit of a middleman between the farmers and whomever they're selling to. But the benefit of the Mundis is they guarantee a minimum price to farmers. So they shelter them from the free market, right? So the farmers are able to get what they want for their crops. The farmers say that these new laws really cut away that safety net and leave them exposed

and at greater risk of losing their land. And remember, so many of India's farmers have tiny plots of land, you know, fewer than five acres, and it's very hard to make a profit off of that small parcel of land. So the worry here is that they will lose that minimum price because the system will be opened up to larger corporations. Right, right. And tell me a little bit more about these corporations that they're concerned about. Yeah, they're concerned that they will sort of be squeezed out. That's the fear on the farmers.

And they're worried in particular about two of India's most prominent businessmen, Adani and Abulani. They aren't really yet big players in agritech or farming. But the farmers are worried that, you know, corporations like those controlled by those two men will get the upper hand here. They feel they'll be left powerless to sort of negotiate a fair price for their crops once that Mundi system is gone, if that is indeed what these laws lead to. Right, the system that essentially protects prices for them. One of the biggest debates on social media is will the Adani and Ambani groups benefit from the farm laws? Will farmers pay the price with corporates walking away with all the benefits from the farm laws? I do understand that that farmers do contend that the current system,

the Mundi system isn't perfect, right? And there are some economists who echo Modi here in saying that these new laws will actually benefit farmers and the economy. And what is the government's position and the economists that agree with the government's position? Yeah, that's right. It's important to note plenty of independent experts and economists do think that the agricultural system in India needs to be modernized. Just perhaps not the way the Modi government has tried to go about it. So the government insists that the reforms are long overdue, that they'll really bring India's agricultural system into the present. And the Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, says farmers will be able to sell their crops to private firms, and he contends that that gives them more control, you know, more choice over what they're going to get. But Modi really argues that the farmers will benefit from this.

He said that the new farm laws will bring in more opportunity for farmers as they will get access to more markets and new technology. The prime minister further added that the government is committed to increasing the income of farmers through the reforms. He also said that the farm laws will remove the agriculture barriers which will empower farmers. It's also important to note that the Modi government stance has shifted somewhat over, you know, these sustained massive protests. We're almost at a year now that farmers have been protesting. So at first, the central government really did come out very strongly.

You know, the internet at those protest sites around the border of India's capital, the internet was suspended for several days. The farmers were vilified in some quarters. Modi himself in parliament talked of agitators taking over and infiltrating the protests. Now, the government also had a really strong reaction to what it deemed as foreign interference. You know, the foreign spotlight abroad on the farmers' protests. We saw Rihanna tweet about it, so did Greta Thunberg, right? And India's government was none too pleased. They basically said, hey, you know, these celebrities just don't

get it. But the farmers haven't gone away, you know, they've forced the government to the negotiating table over and over, really forced them to make some concessions. There have been many rounds of talks that haven't yet led anywhere, so there them to make some concessions. There have been many rounds of talks that haven't yet led anywhere, so there's a bit of a deadlock. But even so, the laws are suspended for now by order of India's Supreme Court. I know much of the protests and a lot of the anger is concentrated in three major states, right? Punjab, Haryana, and Uttar Pradesh. And I understand that a lot of this is taking place in these large entrenched camps, and you've been there. And what is life like at these camps? It's actually fascinating to see the camps are sprawling. There's three very, very large ones

at three different spots surrounding India's capital. They stretch for kilometers on end, they're kind of tucked underneath overpasses, they're blocking major roads. And it's really entrenched. It's like little villages that have sprung up, right? You see trucks, you see tractor trailers that are parked and covered in tarps where the farmers are sleeping 24-7 now. Others are in tents. There are these large kitchens where people cook for everybody. There are chai stands. There are women making stacks and stacks of roti that they hand out to everyone, right? The last time I was there, I saw a long lineup at the milk station where people were waiting, you know, for their jug of milk for the day.

And, you know, there are clinics, there are pharmacies, there's even libraries at these protest sites. There's a dentist's booth at one of them too. So it's a real village. And one farmer I spoke with actually called it a well-oiled machine. And you see that. It is. Some stay there

all the time, but other farmers actually rotate in and out. They go home for a few weeks to tend their crops and they come back. And I met people of all ages there. You know, I met one farmer who was 90 years old. He was just sitting outside his tiny tent where he stays with nine other people. And when I asked him how old he was, he laughingly told me he remembers India's partition really well, which was obviously back in 1947. That's how old he is. And yet he's been living at the protest camp in these difficult conditions. You know, it's very rainy monsoon season, it was soaking, it was humid. And he just kind of shrugged and told me this is my life now. It's okay, this is my home, and I'll be here until we win this fight. I do understand that there have been several deaths at these camps since the protests began. And what's contributing to that? Yeah, it's hard to

pinpoint. There are actually shrines at the camps to remember those who have died since, you know, on site since the protests began. The Farmers union say nearly 550 people have died at the camps since they were set up back in the end of November of last year. Of illness, you know, heart attacks, many of the farmers are older, like the 90-year-old I mentioned. There's cold weather over the winter. The Delhi area gets quite cold. Road accidents as well, and possibly COVID-19.

You know, virtually nobody wears a mask at the protest camps. It's, you know, hard to stay clean. And there have also been suicides at the camps. You know, it's hard to get a clear sense of how many, but certainly living conditions there are difficult. You know, you mentioned this issue of suicide. And, you know, I suppose to live in these conditions at these camps, there's obviously a certain level of desperation there from these farmers that really want to see things changed. So can we talk about some of the underlying issues here, the broader context? And part of that includes this hidden crisis of suicide among farmers that is seldom talked about, right? And what can you tell me about that?

Yeah, India has one of the world's highest suicide rates, and there's been a suicide crisis in India's farming community for decades. But it has been building over the last few years as the conditions worsen. You know, in some states, suicide rates among farmers have increased 10 times in just the last five years. Mainly, yeah, that's, you know, an incredible statistic. And that's mainly because of the stress of squeezing profit from those smaller and smaller parcels of land that I was talking about, you know, farmers easily fall into debt, you know,

whether they're buying expensive pesticides to keep, you know, their, their crop safe, or subsidizing bad crop yields, if there's a drought, They're also growing crops that aren't very lucrative. You know, rice, for example, takes a whole lot of water. Groundwater has been depleted in so many places. So it costs money to build deeper and deeper wells and get that water to grow their rice. So money that many farmers just don't have. So suicide really has been prevalent in so many of these communities,

so much so that there's even a shorthand for it in some areas. You know, there's a phrase, consuming sulfus, and sulfus is a pesticide that's readily available on farms that many farmers actually use to kill themselves. And in some areas, people actually don't say, oh, my father killed himself. They will say, he took sulfus. Oh my God, that's horrible. Horrible. So obviously, the stress that these farmers are feeling now with regards to these new laws and feeling like some government protections that they had are going to be taken away from them has only compounded a crisis that already existed. only compounded a crisis that already existed. Absolutely. There's a lot of pain out there that they're feeling, and there's the worry that that pain will just continue and lead to more suicide rates and more crippling debt. I was moved by the story of one woman that you spoke to in your reporting on this. Her name is Kiran Kaur.

But can you tell me her story? Yeah. Kiran is a really strong young woman. So her father took his own life a few years ago now, and Kiran was just blindsided. They were really very close. She was, you know, the closest to her father, but she had no idea he was sinking further and further into debt. But suicide is, you know, a sad reality for her family, like I was mentioning, and for so many others. When I was there in Punjab at her home, speaking with Kiran and her mother, one by one, widows kept dropping by, you know, Kiran's aunties. Her father was one of three brothers who all killed themselves because of farming debt. Now, they had a fourth brother.

He's the only one still alive. So three out of four brothers killed themselves. So three out of four brothers killed themselves. And Kiran, you know, is obviously in pain, but she started an organization to help widows in her area. So she takes the bus all over. She's trying to help these widows apply for government compensation, trying to support those who are thinking of suicide as an option out of, you know, the debt that they're experiencing.

So, you know, a really moving story that really brings home how hard it is for so many farmers in India. I still can't believe he's gone, but it furthers my resolve to do something about it. How do we overcome this issue? In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You know, I want to talk about what's been happening lately

because there has been some real developments on this. Last week we saw this really violent incident at the site of one of these farmer protests in Uttar Pradesh, India's most populous state. And can you talk me through what happened? Yeah, so there's video from the scene, actually, that clearly shows that there was a group of farmers walking along a road in Uttar Pradesh as part of a protest.

They have flags in their hands. It's quite a bit of a quiet protest. They're not even really chanting. Then a jeep barrels into them from behind, like a really chaotic scene that you see in the aftermath. Hitting these farmers. four farmers were killed, three people in the vehicle who were workers with the BJP, Prime Minister Narendra Modi's party, were pulled out and attacked, as was the driver. So they also died, you know, at least eight people died. Now the son of a minister in Modi's government, the junior home minister, is actually

accused of ordering his driver to run into the farmers. His name is Ashish Mishra. He was just arrested on the weekend. But the arrest actually came a full six days after the violence. And that actually sparked a lot of anger. And there's been a fair bit of criticism over how the case has been handled by authorities who seemed reluctant to sort of investigate at first or to charge the son. So there has been, you know, a lot of attention on that case in the last week since that violent incident about a week ago. Salima, what does that say to you that the animosity, the anger between these two sides has gotten to the point where now a minister's son is being accused of ordering a jeep to run into a crowd of protesters. That's quite extraordinary.

Yeah, it's a definite clear escalation because there hasn't been, there's been little spurts of violence throughout the protests, the police perhaps being a bit heavy handed in certain incidents earlier during this nearly year long protest. But this is the most violent yet, the worst yet since the protests began. And, you know, the farmers were also incensed even just before that. I think September was actually a really hot month for emotions around this protest. There was another incident in Haryana State where during a protest, some farmers were beaten by police with their batons. And the farmers demanded compensation for families in that case and a judicial inquiry.

They actually did get those measures. There will be an investigation. So that was seen very much as a win on the farmer side. Everybody was talking about it when I was there at the camps last month. So there's definitely an escalation. I think any bit of violence quickly leads to a hardening of the farmer's position as well, and sort of a bolstering of their resolve that they're not going anywhere, they're going to stay at this and fight these laws. has led members of the BJP party or these police who are beating protesters to be so incensed by the farmers position that they would that they would resort to this kind of violence? Like, why the animosity towards the farmers? I'm not sure it's incensed at the position, but perhaps because of the length of the protests. Like they, you know, everybody you talk to says they're not going to go anywhere. They're going to keep fighting this till the end of time, till the laws are repealed.

I think that's where the frustration comes, perhaps from the other side, because there is this deadlock and these protests have been going on for a sustained period of time. And have they been like disrupting normal life there? They have been. I mean, they've taken over parts of highways and blocked parts of highways, but that has sort of become a little bit commonplace. The roads are kind of blocked off.

You can't head in those directions around Delhi. Those are the protest sites that are in place and haven't moved. But what has ramped up in the last month, I would say, since the end of August and the month of September, has been these rallies that are going on in different states kind of across India, mainly focused on Uttar Pradesh. And the farmers are moving into the political sphere as well, right?

They have said that they're going to hold rallies in Uttar Pradesh. It's a really important state. It's the most populous state. It holds the most seats. And Modi's party, the BJP, is in power in Uttar Pradesh. There is a state election coming up early next year, and the farmers have said they are targeting that election. They will keep going out there and having these rallies and, you know, make their point that they believe the Modi government is anti-farmer. And the farmers are

a massive voting bloc, you know, more than half of India's population have their livelihoods linked to agriculture. So they do have political power and political sway. And that also leads to a major challenge for the Modi government. After 300 days, like, what is the way out of this standoff? Is there a way out of this standoff? Well, on the surface, it doesn't really look like it. It seems like both sides are very much entrenched. You know, the farmers are vowing not to back down. And there's not really a subtle way for the Prime Minister Modi to back down, even if he wanted to, you know, this has

become a major challenge for the Modi government that isn't really used to such sustained opposition, you know, on one issue for a long period of time. One option, you know, some on the ground and in the know are talking about, you know, the laws are currently suspended. What if they just stay suspended? Could that drag on? Could that be suspended until India's next general election? That's a long time for now, right? That's in 2024, more than two years from now. And the farmers are asking for a full repeal of the laws. So would they even be satisfied if there was an indeterminate suspension? Maybe. But there are talks going on, but really very few public signs that this will end anytime soon. Okay. Salima Shivni, thank you so much for this.

You're welcome. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.