Front Burner - A ‘completely unjustified’ verdict

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

Canadian Michael Spavor, who’s been detained in China since 2018, has been given an 11-year prison sentence by a Chinese court. Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau called the verdict “completely unjustified.” Today, Toronto Star reporter Joanna Chiu on what this means for Canada-China relations.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jonathan Mopensze, in for Jamie Poisson. After Canadian Michael Spavor was convicted of espionage in a Chinese court and sentenced to 11 years in prison on Wednesday, he wanted to share three messages with the world.

Thank you for all your support, I'm in good spirits and I want to get home. The verdict came down just one day after a different Chinese court upheld a death sentence against another Canadian, Robert Schellenberg. Spavor and fellow Canadian Michael Kovrig were detained in China two and a half years ago. It happened just days after the arrest of Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou in Vancouver. She faces possible extradition to the U.S. on fraud charges and allegations that she violated sanctions against Iran. Meng's extradition hearings are wrapping up right now, and many believe the timing of these court decisions in China is no coincidence. Joanna Chu is with me today to talk about that.

She covers Canada-China relations for the Toronto Star, and she's the author of the upcoming book, China Unbound, about relations between China and the West. We'll go through these latest developments, what they might mean for Canada's relationship with China, and whether a different approach to diplomacy might have changed the outcomes we're seeing now. Hi, Joanna. Thanks so much for joining us today. Yeah, thanks for having me on. So, 11 years in prison. Were you surprised by the harshness of Michael Spavor's sentence?

I wasn't surprised because I covered kind of legal issues in China and unfortunately I knew he and Michael Kovrig were accused of some pretty national security crimes. And that around 10 years is kind of the standard sentence that people have gotten for national security related offenses. Of course, we still don't know what these offenses are. It's all very secretive. So I wasn't surprised that it was, you know, a sinking feeling when I got the news of that. Part of Spavor's sentence is that he has been ordered to be deported. And Dominic Barton, Canada's ambassador to China, says he believes the deportation would only happen after the sentence was served. The Canadian government is seeking clarity on this. But what do you make of that lack of clarity? Yeah, I think from what I've seen in past cases where foreigners were involved,

deportation did happen after sentences were served. What's also unclear is if the sentence might be reduced, because there are provisions for that in Chinese law for things like good behavior. And also it's still up for final review from the Chinese Supreme Court. So all of this is contributing to a lot of uncertainty about what this actually means. And I think in a way it's probably intentional because the Meng Wanzhou hearing, the extradition hearing, the formal extradition hearing just started today in vancouver um so i think chinese officials do want to have this uncertainty because they would do want to continue sending the message that they've given since they picked up the two

michaels and upgraded robert schellenberg the albertans sentence for drug smuggling to death sentence that they have been sending this consistent message that this will all go away the canadian men will be free robert schellenberg will have his life if canada releases mung and doesn't extradite her to the u.s now remind us one if you can that the court in dandong found spavor guilty of of espionage. But on what basis? What did the Chinese government say at the time? They haven't released evidence or its argumentation really on what exactly he was doing. It's been really vague, like, oh, he was working with Kovrig,

some sort of spy. It's very vague, and it's clearly, it was a show trial. It lasted, you know, less than two hours for both of their trials. It's not as if their lawyers presented, you know, tons of evidence on what exactly they were saying. And it was clearly a retaliatory move for Meng Wanzhou's detention. Meng Wanzhou is, I've written about this in my book and in my reporting for the Toronto Star about how she's treated like basically royalty in China. And Huawei is its number one private company, successful global company. And they see her arrest and targeting of Huawei as basically an attack on the Chinese government itself.

So they think to them, the stakes couldn't be higher. And they're willing to really blatantly use these Canadians as pawns and as leverage. And I know earlier at his trial, no, there were no reporters or diplomats let inside the courtroom. So how much transparency really has there been through this entire legal process? There's basically been no transparency. And all of the suspects involved have struggled to access lawyers. And that's just par for the course for the Chinese legal system. That's how it treats its own citizens. That's how it treats foreigners of Asian descent, which have been taken as political prisoners for decades. Canadian Hussein Salil of Uyghur descent has been in prison for over 15 years.

And there's so little transparency around his case that Canadian officials still don't know what crime, if any, he had been charged with. But despite that, he hasn't had counselor access and Canadian officials don't know what crime, if any, he's in jail for. Now, Joanna, you're friends with the other Michael, Michael Kovrig, the former Canadian diplomat who was detained at the same time as Spavor in December 2018 in Beijing. Kovrig is still awaiting a verdict. I'm wondering how you're feeling right now, given Spavor in December 2018 in Beijing. Kovrig is still awaiting a verdict. I'm wondering

how you're feeling right now given Spavor's sentence. It's likely that he will get a similar length sentence and I really do feel terribly for his family and close friends who have been working tirelessly to try to push for his release. Out of the men involved, I think we know the most about Michael Kovrig because his family and his colleagues have been so outspoken about who he is, how his work is just exemplary

of someone who is passionate about China and learning about China and very respectful about the work he has done. At the time of his arrest, he took leave from the Foreign Service as a diplomat because his post was coming up. And I remember speaking to him about this at the time in Beijing. He wanted to not go to another country.

He wanted to continue to stay in China, keep improving his Mandarin because he loved the country so much. And he had so many friends in Beijing. And you'd think to the Chinese government, like targeting him, they would know that it just makes him look so bad because he's one of those people that you would think they would want to support as being like a bridge between China and other countries. The Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau said Canada will appeal

Spavor's sentence and he called it, quote, an arbitrary detention with a mock sham trial. Canada condemns in the strongest possible terms Mr. Spavor's unjust conviction after more than two and a half years of arbitrary detention. This decision was made after a process that lacked both fairness and transparency, including a trial that did not satisfy the minimum standards required by international law. The Chinese embassy responded in a statement that said Garneau made, quote, groundless accusations against China, which are called extremely arrogant and extremely unreasonable. What do you make of that kind of language from the Chinese government? So it's, in my book, I talk about this development of kind of wolf warrior diplomacy, which is

word for it, where it's just very aggressive stances when it comes to being defensive of the Chinese government's policies, the Chinese Communist Party's actions, where if there's any criticism, they usually respond with just really a lot of passionate defenses. Often they would accuse other countries of meddling in its eternal affairs. Beijing consistently denies that it lacks a rule of law. It claims that its courts are transparent and fair and that it has legal processes, even though Xi Jinping himself, in the constitution itself, it says that the Chinese Communist Party is above the law. The constitution does not apply to Chinese Communist Party leaders. apply to Chinese Communist Party leaders. And especially under Xi Jinping, since he took power in late 2012, it's gone in this direction of just clamping down on internal civil rights and being

more and more aggressive when it comes to pushing back against any international criticism. So what could Canadians read into that message from the Chinese government, that reaction to Garneau's statement? I think even when the two Michaels were taken, I think the message to Canadians were that it was dangerous to live in China, to do business in China, to travel to China. And I think more and more with this 11-year sentence, I think a lot of Canadians would be scared to have careers related to China. But I did point out in today's column for the Star that while these cases are very serious and in a way very tragic because these people's lives are being basically used as political pawns. I think Canada and other countries should have seen this coming because it's not the first time

that China has engaged in hostage-taking diplomacy or taking hostages, foreign foreigners, putting them in jail to try to achieve a certain goal. It's done it to, in previous years, to Canadians Julia and Kevin Garrett. He and his wife Julia were imprisoned in China in 2014, accused of spying. I was sentenced to eight years, but what happened next was within 36 hours I was deported. It's done it to many Canadians and foreigners of Asian or Chinese descent, even if they're foreign citizens, including, like I said before, the case of a Canadian of Uyghur descent, Hussein Salil, been in prison for 15 years. So in a way, I think a lot of what happened in retaliation with the Mung case was a wake-up

call, but a lot of countries seem to be unprepared for what they should have seen coming because there has been an ongoing pattern and there has been a constant, a consistent taking of foreign political prisoners and in sort of hostage diplomacy situations in the past. And Canada and other countries did not seem to have kind of any strategy on how to counter this and it seems as if these smaller steps are happening quite belatedly such as Canada recently put together a coalition of different countries to sign a statement opposing arbitrary detention in general. The Canadian-led declaration is endorsed by 58 countries, including every other G7 member. I'm grateful and emboldened by the

strong show of support here. Today, countries from every continent stand together to tell people who are being arbitrarily detained abroad that they are not alone. But only two countries from China's neighbourhood, Japan and Australia, would endorse the declaration. This statement, while it sets sort of a precedent, it has no legal binding. So it's going into the direction of trying to organize with other allies against what's happening, but it's quite slow and belated when a lot of politicians, government leaders are largely silent on these concerns before basically white Canadians became targets.

At the embassy in Beijing, more than 50 diplomats from 25 different countries, allies including the United States, Germany, France, Australia, are all there to send a message to Beijing. They all say that these detentions are arbitrary, these charges are trumped up. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here.

You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing.

In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. You know, you've described Canada's approach to China as being kind of like a dual-track diplomacy where you have trade issues being separated from human rights issues. So what are you saying? Should Canada have taken a different or harder approach to China's human rights issues earlier on? Well, I think Canada, that dual track approach, they assumed that they could criticize the human rights record while simultaneously being very positive when it came to conversations about trade or economic ties.

But what's happened is that it's come to this position where suddenly it's affecting economic ties because China was so angry that when canada detained mung um they slapped tariffs on canadian goods like canola and pork um so it's kind of that idea that canada and other countries could kind of criticize human rights but then get everything it wants when it comes to economic relationship that kind of came crumbling down and there doesn't seem to be a strategy on on how to proceed and how to prevent more hostages from being taken in the future whenever Beijing is unhappy about something because so far it seems to have not faced any consequences for

what it's doing so as a journalist i can't really say oh canada should do this or that but some people are saying that more stronger measures should at least be explored and discussed and just to discuss what might be effective because it's kind of an open question right now what could be done to pressure China to stop some of its very authoritarian draconian activities. Let's bring in Ben Roswell a former Canadian diplomat and president of the Canadian International Council. China is sort of testing out its new relationship with the rest of the world now that it's become so powerful. And we could look at this chapter of the detentions and the two Michaels as one area

where China tested its limits and, in fact, I think found some pretty serious pushback. Okay, so let me ask you to expand on that. What tools does Canada have at its disposal at this point to try to free these men? So some lawyers, some former ambassadors are calling for things like introducing trade sanctions on China, like countries have done to places like Iran or North Korea. or I spoke with some legal experts who say there's more that countries can do to try to start international kind of lawsuits against Chinese officials such as those who were directly involved in the internment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang so there's both international courts and domestic courts where you can actually pinpoint and pursue Magnitsky Act sanctions, for example, against certain officials who were directly responsible for some of the very serious human rights abuses in China. So those are some

options. And of course, there's debate about whether they could be effective. There's trade sanctions, for example, there's a lot of controversy about whether they're at all effective, and especially when China is such a major economy. To me, it seems like that would be difficult to achieve realistically. Meng Wanzhou is facing extradition to the U.S. At the heart of the allegations, that Huawei skirted U.S. sanctions on Iran doing business there through banks in the U.S. via a subsidiary called Skycom. There are additional troubling allegations in the indictment as well, including that Huawei lied to the federal government and attempted to obstruct justice by concealing and destroying evidence and by moving potential government witnesses back to China.

What kind of indications do we have of what the U.S. is prepared to do here to help secure the release of the Canadians? So since the Biden administration took over from Trump, sources have been saying that Biden is a lot more supportive of Canada and Canada's efforts to get the two Michaels free, to get Schellenberg clemency from the death sentence, whereas Trump was kind of basically doing his own thing and surprising other allies and world leaders with what he was saying with China.

At least it seems like the U.S. government is now in communication and contact with Ottawa to try to push for their release. But there's no indication that the U.S. Justice Department would retract its extradition request for Meng, which is what started this in the first place. It doesn't seem like this issue will go away because it's quite highly unlikely that Beijing will get what it wants, which is Canada or the U.S. just stopping this process. stopping this process. And her extradition hearing, years after she was arrested, because there was so much preamble, it could continue to take even more years. So by that time, it could be even without a, say, a decision whether Robert Schleinberg gets a death sentence

or whether Kovrig and Saver will get the 11 years because it's dependent on the extradition hearing. They could be in jail for, say, five, six years before we get confirmation of anything official. Joanna, thanks so much for walking us through this. Yeah, thank you again for spotlighting these issues. Before we let you go, a quick update on our story yesterday about the Taliban offensive in Afghanistan. Akhtar Mahoy, the reporter we spoke to, has now confirmed that the Taliban have overrun the central prison in Kandahar and released over 1,000 prisoners into the city. Kandahar is the second largest city in Afghanistan. Canadians may remember it as home base for thousands of troops who tried to help stabilize the country for years.

U.S. officials are now warning Afghanistan could fall to the Taliban in as little as 90 days. That's it for today. I'm Jonathan Mopetze, in for Jamie Poisson. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.