Front Burner - A conversation with Canada’s environment minister

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

The Liberals released a new, long-awaited climate change plan last week that they say will meet Canada's commitments under the Paris Agreement and cut greenhouse gas emissions by at least 30 per cent ...by 2030. The plan includes $15 billion in federal investment and a gradual tripling of the carbon tax. Today on Front Burner, host Jayme Poisson asks Environment Minister Jonathan Wilkinson about the plan, whether it goes far enough, and who it risks leaving behind.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. So here's the thing with climate targets. They seem to be easy enough to make, but harder to keep. That's been Canada's experience, at least. But last week, the Liberal government unveiled their strategy to actually meet, even exceed,
Starting point is 00:00:44 the commitments made in the Paris Agreement five years ago. We know that Canadians understand that it can no longer be free to pollute anywhere in the country. Today, Canada's Environment Minister Jonathan Wilkinson joins me to talk about his government's updated proposals, whether they go far enough, and who they risk leaving behind. This is FrontBurner. Hi, Minister Wilkinson. Thanks so much for coming on to the show today. Not at all. Thank you for the invitation. So Canada has missed every emissions reduction target since the early 90s that it set.
Starting point is 00:01:25 And before this latest announcement, it looked like Canada could fall short of its Paris climate commitment too, that is to lower greenhouse gas emissions by 30% below 2005 levels by 2030. And so, are you sure now that this plan you've unveiled is enough to meet that commitment? I am. failed is enough to meet that commitment. I am. I think it's important to note that the pan-Canadian framework, which this government developed early in its mandate, so in 2016, was an enormous step forward in terms of taking climate action. It had 50 different initiatives that identified 225 megatons of reductions. But it was very clear, and we were always very clear about it,
Starting point is 00:02:06 that it didn't get us all the way to the target. We still had 77 megatons that we had to find just to meet the target, let alone to exceed it. What this plan does is essentially show in very detailed, in a very detailed fashion, how we will actually not only meet, but we will exceed it. And we've used very conservative assumptions in the context of the modeling work that we've done.
Starting point is 00:02:27 We've only included initiatives that are fully funded. We haven't included some of the things that we have found difficult to quantify, like investments in public transit or investments in clean technology. We haven't included any future action by any provincial or territorial governments. So our view is it's very conservative.
Starting point is 00:02:46 We would like to move as we go forward in discussions with provinces and territory up the range so that the exceeds part of this gets bigger and bigger. But yes, we are very, very confident that we will meet and exceed our target. Okay. And of course, time is of the essence here, right? The world's leading climate scientists said in 2018, in the IPCC report that we've got 12 years to limit climate change catastrophe. Yeah, time is of the essence and time is of the essence both because we are running out of time. And if we are going to hold global rise, average global rise in temperature to less than two degrees and ideally to 1.5 degrees, which would enable us to avoid the worst impacts of climate, we need to act quickly. I would also say, though, that Canada as a country also needs to act quickly because
Starting point is 00:03:39 from a global perspective, countries around the world and the investment community, international capital, are moving very rapidly to invest and to bring forward low-carbon solutions. It will increasingly become the basis of competition in the world going forward. And if Canada does not embark upon this soon, it will create enormous economic challenges. So I would say to you that, yes, it's incredibly important that we start both for environmental reasons, but also for economic reasons. You know, a lot of these issues are not new, right, that you've brought up, and your party has been in power since 2015. And so why did it take so long to make this plan, you think? Well, I think that's a fair question. And the answer that I would give you is the pan-Canadian framework. So the plan that was brought forward
Starting point is 00:04:38 in 2016 laid a number of the fundamental building blocks on which we continue to build. So for example, it contained the accelerated phase out of coal-fired power, fundamentally important to greening the electricity grid, which is fundamentally important to decarbonization, including, you know, in areas beyond just the electricity grid, like transportation. If you're thinking about electric vehicles, you've got to have a clean grid in order to do that. It put into place for the first time a price on pollution so that pollution is not free anywhere in this country. It started the build out of electric vehicle infrastructure and hydrogen infrastructure to ensure that as we deploy vehicles, there are places to charge them because at the end of the day, nobody's going to buy a car if you can't figure out how to fill it up. fill it up. And so they laid the foundation and identified the bulk of the emissions reductions that we needed to get to our target. What we've done in this case is build upon that to be able to actually show very distinctly how we get to and beyond the target. Do you think that your party
Starting point is 00:05:37 should have moved faster with a plan like this? Well, I think that it's important that Canadians are on board and that we bring Canadians with us on this journey. And I think that during the period from 2015 to 2019, what we saw was a real sea change in the context of how Canadians think about these issues. Not just that Canadians care increasingly about the environmental threat that is climate change. But perhaps even more significantly, the Canadians have come to the view, and you see this in public opinion polls, that fighting climate change will be good for the economy. I think a few years ago, you would have been of the view, many Canadians would have been of the view that you had to choose. And I think increasingly, people are of the view that you don't have to choose, that this can be good both from an environmental and an economic perspective. And I think that that gives governments here and, to be honest, around the world, license to be more bold and more aggressive.
Starting point is 00:06:35 I think it's also coupled with the fact that because international capital is now looking at investments through a climate lens, it is really accelerating the rate at which countries can move. And you see that certainly in the United States with the bold statements that President-elect Biden has made in terms of what he plans to do. Right, right. And I think that moves me to my next question, which is, it seems the centerpiece of this plan you announced last week is this increased price on carbon. And this move has been lauded by some environmental groups like Greenpeace. And in the simplest, most accessible terms, could you explain why you think increasing the price of carbon will do what needs to be done to get Canada to dramatically reduce its carbon emissions? Well, sure. But I would start by saying, I mean, people have focused very much on the price on pollution. But I would tell you this
Starting point is 00:07:21 plan is a comprehensive one. It includes a number of regulatory mechanisms. It includes significant investments in building retrofits and electric vehicle infrastructure and incentives to buy electric vehicles, public transit, you know, working with large emitters to reduce their emissions. And a portion of it is focused on the price on pollution. The price on pollution is essentially a mechanism that incents people and companies to choose energy efficient products and services in place of less efficient ones. And so it's about, you know, thinking about how you reduce, increase the energy efficiency of your home or choose a car that actually is more energy efficient in order to avoid paying the price on pollution. It is, you know, used in many countries around the world. Nine out of 10 economists will tell you that it is the most economically efficient way
Starting point is 00:08:11 to reduce greenhouse gas emissions while also driving innovation, which obviously we want to do in the context of growing the economy. But we've done it in a way that's affordable for Canadians because all the money goes back to Canadians and the majority of Canadian families
Starting point is 00:08:23 are actually better off. They get more money back than they pay. So we certainly have thought through the affordability issues. It's an extremely important part of this, but it's a key part of driving down emissions. Throughout this global pandemic, there have been many who see this moment as an opportunity, right? A chance to totally reimagine what is politically possible, even a chance for something huge like a Green New Deal to do better, right, than the Paris climate targets, which many climate experts now say are out of date. And, you know, one question I have for you is, why not really seize this moment
Starting point is 00:09:07 and think even bigger than the plan that you've put out, even more ambitious than a carbon tax, a high carbon tax? And you mentioned other spending. We're talking about $15 billion in spending here. Well, I think I would challenge folks to go through the document that we released on Friday and to be able to point out areas where additional ambition is feasible, certainly in the short term. I mean, there is a limit to how much change you can actually put in place at one particular time.
Starting point is 00:09:40 But that plan goes through every major source of emission in this country. It has either regulatory mechanisms or investment mechanisms in addition to the price on pollution in order to drive that down. That $15 billion is what was contained in the plan. We have also said there will be future investments over the coming months and years. Certainly, the prime minister in the statement on Friday indicated that we would be establishing, for example, a permanent transit fund in January. That's not included in the dollars that are in that plan. And that is in addition to the $60 billion that was committed under the Pan-Canadian Framework. So it is big, it is bold.
Starting point is 00:10:26 On the same day that your climate plan was unveiled last week, the EU agreed to cut net carbon emissions by 55% in the next decade from levels measured in 1990. And Denmark, which is the largest oil producer in the EU, recently announced their plans to stop extracting fossil fuels altogether by 2050. Denmark's climate minister said to the BBC, quote, we want to be climate neutral in 2050. And if we are to have any credibility in that, then this is a necessary decision. And so what would you say to those who do believe that Canada could be going further, could be going faster here? Well, I certainly salute the Europeans in terms of their statement around 55%. And I think that's a big step forward. But I would say a couple of things. I mean, first of all, the emissions reductions that are available in Europe are mainly tied, not exclusively, but mainly tied to their electricity grid and greening the grid.
Starting point is 00:11:16 Those tons in reductions are both perhaps simpler from a technology perspective and also lower cost from a tons perspective. Our big challenges in Canada really relate to transportation, which is about 26% of our emissions, and to industrial emissions, including oil and gas. And for all of those, there are technology solutions right now. Most of them are at the very beginning of what often is referred to as the experience curve, where they are being implemented in very early stages, and with respect to some of them, like electric vehicles being purchased by early adopters, they are not moving down as of yet, the bottom part of the experience curve,
Starting point is 00:11:56 where you see broad-based adoption. And so we are working to try to accelerate that work. But certainly in a country like Canada, the costs are a little bit higher and the challenges are a little bit bigger. I've been talking to a lot of my European colleagues. I mean, I think the equivalent for Canada that we would be looking at in terms of being in line with where we need to go from a reductions perspective is probably somewhere in the range of about 40%. Our range right now is 32 to 40%. As I said, it only includes investments that we've made thus far. It does not include some of the things that we certainly intend to do. It does not incorporate a number of the initiatives like public transit and clean
Starting point is 00:12:35 technology that we've already invested in and will continue to do so. And it includes no initiatives, further initiatives on the part of the province. So our hope and expectation is that we will move farther up that range and ideally end up at somewhere near that 40% or maybe even above. I want to ask you specifically about Denmark, this promise to stop extracting fossil fuels by 2050. Why aren't we promising to do that? Well, what we are promising to do is to essentially drive to net zero and to be an advocate for net zero around the world. That will be a transition in the same way that Denmark is going to be going through a transition. And we're going to be working through ideas about how we
Starting point is 00:13:16 actually get there. Some of those actually may involve continued use of some fossil fuels. If you can find ways to extract, for example, the hydrogen value of natural gas and leave the carbon either in the ground or in solid form, then there is a pathway to continue to use some fossil fuels without carbon pollution. I mean, the focus has to be on carbon pollution. So we're in the process of defining those pathways. We're going to be standing up an advisory panel very soon to help us to think through some of those pathways. And very much, I mean, the commitment to get to net zero means you need to deal with pollution. And every country is going to have a different pathway to get there based on their unique circumstances. But our commitment to net zero is a firm one. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.
Starting point is 00:14:17 Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income.
Starting point is 00:14:46 That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I'd like to switch gears here a little bit. In Alberta, as I'm sure you anticipated,
Starting point is 00:15:09 the United Conservative Party government called your planned increases to the carbon tax another attack on Alberta's economy and Alberta's jurisdiction. But I want to take this down to the level of the worker. What do you say to a person who's made their whole livelihood in an industry in fossil fuels that we're now trying to incentivize a move away from? What do you say to that person? Well, I would say to that person, I mean, I actually think Alberta workers and Alberta companies are very much aware of the way in which the world is changing and the need for us to make significant reductions with respect to carbon emissions. But they also want us to do that in
Starting point is 00:15:50 a way that continues to provide opportunity for their kids. And so what I would say to them is this shift is one that this federal government wants to partner with you and with the companies for whom you work to ensure that we are transitioning in a manner that's going to provide economic opportunity going forward. That's what the accelerator fund is about. It's about working with large emitters to work to implement technologies to make significant reductions in energy efficiency. That's what the fund for low carbon fuels is about, is to build an economy that will produce hydrogen, which is certainly a product of the oil and gas sector and other technologies, and biofuels, which is a potential big winner for the prairies and for Quebec.
Starting point is 00:16:32 So I would say the federal government understands that. I mean, look, I grew up in Saskatchewan. I mean, I'm a British Columbia MP, but I grew up in Saskatchewan. I worked for the province of Saskatchewan. All my family lives in Saskatchewan and Alberta. I feel very strongly that no federal government can take the position that we are going to knowingly and willingly leave a whole region of the country behind. That's not a responsible position to take. And I would say
Starting point is 00:16:54 part of this plan was about partnering with Alberta and Albertans to ensure that the future for their kids is a good one. As someone from Saskatchewan who still has family there, do you think that this is enough for the people there? Like clearly, this is an area where there isn't a ton of trust, right? Like, Alberta did not send a single Liberal to Parliament in the last election. Well, look, I do think that certainly there are, you know, ideological differences at times. And that's very clear in the representation that exists right now in the House of Commons. But as I say, a government is different from a party. A government actually has to govern on behalf of all Canadians,
Starting point is 00:17:37 not just those that voted for them. And I do think that it's incumbent on a federal government to work to try to ensure that we are reflecting the aspirations of people who live in every part of the country. And I would say, you know, people focus on the disagreements. And certainly, I mean, in public, there are broad disagreements on, for example, the price that we have had are about hydrogen technology, carbon capture and sequestration technology, biofuels technology. There are many areas on which we are fully aligned. We agree. And I think we need to find ways to park our disagreements and to try to work together in the areas on which we do agree. And do you think this plan that you've put forward, it gives enough specifics on what you may be aligned on, that it gives people in these industries a vision of how they
Starting point is 00:18:33 fit into the government's plan to reduce emissions by more than 30% in the next decade, and also to reach net zero emissions by 2050, that it shows them where they fit into this? net zero emissions by 2050, that it shows them where they fit into this? Well, I certainly hope so. And I think that's something that we will continue to need to communicate about. And I would say to you that the pathways are going to be different in different regions of this country. Our economies are different. Our resource bases are different. And so it's really ensuring that we are responding to and working with people in all different parts of this country on pathways that are going to enable their regional economies to thrive going forward. That's going to be an ongoing piece of work. There's no question.
Starting point is 00:19:24 on Friday, we're focused very much on trying to ensure that we had thought about some of the regional, the regional tools and the regional opportunities to be able to actually enable that kind of a conversation. And do you think that, you know, in the future, there will be more details on that? Because I do have to say that there are not a lot of details in this plan about what like a just transition for people will actually look like. Sure. I mean, there absolutely are going to be more details. A number of the programs that were announced in terms of investments in the plan will need to be fully fleshed out. But, you know, the announcement on Friday was of a plan that gives visibility about the steps that we need to take. We need to do the implementation work, for sure, in the same way that we've had to do that with the Pan-Canadian Framework.
Starting point is 00:20:06 We need to accelerate that implementation work. But, you know, Friday was a really important day, I think, for Canada, because it was really about ensuring that we now have a plan that will allow us to be part of the international community in terms of meeting and exceeding our targets and doing our part with respect to addressing climate change, but also putting Canada on a footing where it is going to be competitive in the future. Okay, Minister Wilkinson, thank you so much. I'd love to speak with you for another hour, but I know you've got to go. So thank you so much for coming by and hope to talk to you again soon. Sounds good. Thank you very much. One note before we go. The federal carbon tax we talked about in that interview, it's actually before the Supreme Court. The provinces of Saskatchewan, Ontario, and Alberta
Starting point is 00:21:04 have all challenged the constitutionality of Saskatchewan, Ontario, and Alberta have all challenged the constitutionality of the carbon pricing system, arguing that it steps on provincial jurisdiction. What the High Court will ultimately decide and the impact that will have on the Liberals' climate plan remains to be seen. That's all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

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