Front Burner - A landmark trial and Hong Kong’s future

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

The trial for Hong Kong media tycoon and pro-democracy activist Jimmy Lai began on Monday. Lai is charged under China’s national security legislation, which has been used to crack down on dissenters in the city-state since 2020. Many activists have been prosecuted under the law already, but this is arguably the most high-profile case yet. Sebastien Lai, Jimmy Lai’s son, joins Front Burner senior producer Elaine Chau for a conversation about the work that led up to his father’s arrest, and what this case might mean for Hong Kong’s future. For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Elaine Chao, senior producer on the show. Today I'm bringing you a conversation I had over the weekend with Sebastian Lai, the son of media tycoon and activist Jimmy Lai, arguably the most prominent figure in Hong Kong's pro-democracy movement.

His long-awaited and long-feared trial started on Monday. Lai is accused of engaging in so-called hostile activities against Hong Kong and China. If you say anything wrong or hurt the Chinese government, or you criticize in a way that you disturb hostility to the CCP, you are liable to the crime of subversion. But what can I do? Just keep quiet?

In 2020, Jimmy Lai was arrested and charged under China's national security law. The Communist Party claims the law was necessary to crack down on, quote, radical local separatists. Those protesting the move say the proposal goes against the one country, two systems framework that promises Hong Kong freedoms not found in mainland China. Under the new law, Chinese security forces, including secret police, will now be able to roam Hong Kong at will. Judges will have to

enforce the new directives. The law targets acts that are seen to undermine the authority of the Chinese government and were implemented shortly after widespread pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong in 2019. Protests that Lai took an active part in. At first, these protests were about the proposed law that would allow Hong Kong to extradite suspects to the mainland. Now there are multiple demands, including full universal voting rights. To convey to the government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and the world our firm and reasoned commitment to safeguard our freedom. This week, and for an expected 80 days,

Jimmy Lai will be on trial, accused of colluding with foreign forces to endanger national security and conspiring with others to publish seditious material, material that could incite hatred or contempt of the Hong Kong and Chinese governments. His arrest has been condemned around the world. The US, UK and the European Union have all called for his immediate release. And as much as this trial is about Lai, it's also seen as a test of judicial independence in this new version of Hong Kong,

which is increasingly under China's authoritarian influence. Today, the road that led Jimmy Lai and his pro-democracy publication Apple Daily to this trial, and what it means for the future of Hong Kong. Hi, Sebastian. Hello. Your father has been in prison for over three years. When was the last time you got to speak with him? Yeah, so the last time I saw him was at the end of 2020.

I left in August and then he was arrested for the first time a few days after. And I haven't been back to Hong Kong because of how broadly worded the national security law is. It's very hard to know if I'd be safe to go back. Doing this interview, for example, could very well fall under the national security law and have me arrested. So that was the last time I saw him in person. What do you know about the conditions in prison? From my understanding, he is in a maximum security prison in solitary confinement. At 76, he's the oldest political prisoner in Hong Kong.

But look, I know that he's strong. He's mentally very strong. His religion gives him a lot of strength. He's strong. He's mentally very strong. His religion gives him a lot of strength. He's Catholic. And I know that on a human level, I think giving everything that you have to stand up for your beliefs, knowing that there's nothing more

that you could have done is a great source of strength. But it doesn't change the fact that he's 76 and every day he spends in prison is a day he risks his life. And I can't imagine what solitary confinement does to a 76-year-old. So much of the coverage around your father has been around his activism. But I want to take a step back a little bit first. We'll get to all of those things. Because, you know, as a Hong Konger myself, I know that growing up, your dad is like one of the most recognizable Hong Kongers around, right? Like he has built multi-million dollar empires in clothing and in media. And I wonder if we can go back a little bit and can you talk more about his backstory and how he came to be the Jimmy Lai that we know today? Yeah, sure. So he escaped China, communist China,

when he was 12 as a stowaway in a fishing boat and arrived to Hong Kong. And he really fell in love with the freedoms of the place. Hong Kong was a British colony at that point, so we had all the freedoms that one would associate with the United Kingdom, except for democracy. But he instantly fell in love. And as he says it, he was like, look for me. It was like, I went to heaven because I finally felt like I had a future.

And, um, and then he went from, uh, working, um, in, in, in a garment factory, uh, as a child laborer, uh, to eventually, um, owning his own clothing brand, which is called Giordano. Um, uh, Giordano. Jordano was very successful. It was basically very reasonable-priced clothing. If people are unfamiliar with it, it's almost like a Gap equivalent to North America in a way. It's really everywhere in Hong Kong and Asia. Yeah, so the person who started Uniqlo in his autobiography says that he took inspiration from Giordano, among other brands. So it was that kind of style of clothing. And, you know, all that was going very well.

And then the Tiananmen Square massacre happened. A brutal massacre of Chinese students and other protesters by the Chinese army. massacre of Chinese students and other protesters by the Chinese army. Indeed, it was hard at times to grasp that this army was launching into an unarmed civilian population as if charging into battle. From Tiananmen Square, the sound of gunfire sounded like a battle, but it was one-sided. No one knows how many people have died in the crackdown. We may never know. Hospital figures indicate that at least people have died in the crackdown, we may never know. Hospital figures indicate that

at least 300 have died. The figure may be as high as 3,000 or more. When the protests originally happened, the Tiananmen Square protests, Dad was very hopeful. He thought that, you know, that it would be a way for China to liberalize socially, to have democracy and have similar freedoms that Hong Kong enjoyed. But when the crackdown happened, dad realized that that wasn't going to be the case. And that was when he decided to start his media company. So Next Magazine and Apple Daily. You know, the mandate of that was he knew that as Hong Kong was going to be handed over from the English to the Chinese, that the people of Hong Kong would need a source of news that didn from the english to the chinese that um the the people of hong kong would need a source of news that didn't didn't hand it to the powerful that spoke spoke truth

to power and that was what apple daily was it was the idea that information uh led to choice and choice led to freedom so he started that and you know it's it's it's as he would say, it hasn't been smooth sailing. There were many threats. Houses were firebombed. The firebombs were seen as an act of intimidation against the pro-democracy tycoon. Even if we're concerned, we can't think about this. We can't let fear frighten us. You know, we have to go on.

He was followed for 10, 15 years. He had an assassination attempt, but he stood firm. Him and his colleagues stood firm until essentially the national security law passed. I want to talk a bit more about how Apple Daily came to be. So this is a Chinese language daily paper. I've seen it described as a combination of the New York Post's page six and with the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal and a bit of Vice. The paper launches in 1995. This is a couple of years before the handover of Hong Kong, which was a British colony, to China.

And at the time, there was really tremendous worry about the freedoms that Hong Kongers enjoyed, things like freedom of speech and freedom of press. And what was your father's hopes for Apple Daily when he launched it at that time? Yeah, of course. So Apple Daily was a source of news that, as I mentioned before, then pandered to powerful and really spoke truth to power. They encumbered a lot of corruption, but was also known for its very colorful,

brash journalism. Racy. Racy, exactly. Sometimes. Yeah, exactly. But I think that was how dad described it. It was like a dumpling, right? You'd have meat in the dumpling, but you also have vegetables.

And he knew that in order to have a newspaper that was pro-democracy, it needed to be a mass newspaper. And Apple Daily became that. It became the first newspaper that was in color. you know the first newspaper that uh was in color it became the first newspaper that spoke in colloquial cantonese so it was this beautiful idea of a newspaper that wasn't as wasn't afraid to be um you know brash but but also wasn't afraid to to offend people who were who were who could really go after the newspaper. And it really became this symbol for a Hong Kong

that could one day become democratic. You alluded to this a little bit. Being in charge of this paper also drew a lot of criticism. The Chinese state media has a lot of names, derogatory names for your father. How does the Chinese government view your father? It depends who you ask. But Chinese state media has always been incredibly critical of my father, his work in Apple Daily, you know, calling him a traitor, all these sort of language that they use during, you know, cultural revolution and whatnot. speaks louder than words and you know i think everybody can see that my father no matter what sort of political camp you are in did what he thought was best for hong kong i don't think anybody could argue that he truly loved hong kong because you know we he has a british passport he

could have left at any point essentially but he But he decided to stay. He decided to stand with his reporters and stand with the people of Hong Kong in the defense of freedom. If we are compassionate, if we just let them do whatever the dictatorial value, the world one day will have to be changed to the image of China. How mistaken we have been, thinking that when China grow richer, we'll be more like us.

And how wrong we have been. When he decided to stay, when he, as you say, could have gone, I imagine that you had conversations about that. Yeah. Well, obviously, as we get closer, well, his birthday was on the 8th of December. And as we get closer to Christmas,

I'm painfully aware that by choosing to stay, he inadvertently chose to not spend all these key dates with his family. And I always hustle, go back and forth on it. But I mean, in the end, I'm incredibly proud that he's my father. And I stand behind him and all the values that he represents. I'll see you next time. as entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

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To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to go back to June 30th, 2020. And on that day, China's national security law took effect. And on the newsstands, the major publications all pretty much had the same front page. There was a photo of officials standing below the Chinese and Hong Kong flags, the headlines essentially welcoming the arrival of this new law. Yeah. All except for Apple Daily. And the front page on that day, the translation reads, draconian law takes effect, one country, two systems, dead.

Yeah. And I think there's something really stark about that contrast. Can you walk me through a bit of what happened with Apple Daily after the implementation of the national security law? I mean, when the national security law happened, everybody knew that the writing was on the wall for campaigning for democracy. So it's very easy to say that, you know,

we agree with Free Press and whatnot. And everybody would tell you that they do, especially if they work in journalistic capacities. But it's only when Free Press is getting clamped down on that it's especially important to speak out for it, to do the work when the work is hardest. And I think, you know, as you mentioned before, when national security law came down,

they kept doing that, calling the law draconian when everybody else was scared to do that. So the authorities saw that they could not be cowed. They could not be scared, scared away. And so the authorities decided to squash it. They sent 200 police officers to raid it the first time, arrested my father and his colleagues, a few of his colleagues. The operation is wide ranging today. Not only Jimmy Lai was under arrest, is wide ranging today. Not only Jimmy Lai was under arrest,

but also a number of senior management staff were arrested as well for charges relating to committing fraud. You know, when that happened, people lined up, the people of Hong Kong lined up to buy the newspaper the next day. And someone was asked in the queue, you know, why are you lining up for this newspaper?

Are you not afraid? You know, the Hong Kong government has made it so clear that they want to crack down on Apple Daily. Are you not afraid up for this newspaper are you not afraid you know the hong kong government has made it so clear that they want to crack down apple daily are you not afraid to buy this newspaper and he turns around and he says i'll buy it even if it was a white piece of paper and it was such a beautiful i mean for me i it's it was such a touching moment it showed that for the people of hong kong it wasn Kong, it wasn't just the news. It was also what it stood for, this idea of press freedom, of democracy. The first raid on Apple Daily's offices was in August 2020.

The paper's reporters actually defied police warnings at the time and streamed the whole thing live on Facebook. More than 10,000 people were watching. And your father had actually already been arrested at his home earlier that morning, but he was brought into the offices by the police to watch the raid happen. When Apple TV kept publishing after that, they sent 500 police officers and raided the newsroom, stopped people from publishing and essentially

shut it down. My father's colleagues stay up till five in the morning, you know, for weeks after that raid because they didn't know if someone was going to knock on their door at five. And five is when they usually come, or the police usually comes and tells you that you're needed in the police station. And so they didn't know, so they stayed up till five in the morning. It's incredibly heartbreaking.

But it's a stark contrast to what the Hong Kong government says now that they still have free press. It's an insult. The paper ends up shutting down in June 2021, not long after that second raid. 500 police officers have raided the offices of the pro-democracy newspaper Apple Daily. They arrested executives, including the editor-in-chief Ryan Law.

I still remember the massive lines of people waiting in the rain at midnight for their copy. Since then, six former Apple Daily executives who were arrested with your dad all pleaded guilty to their charges. Your dad is pleading not guilty. Why is that? Yeah, because he doesn't believe that journalism is a crime. He doesn't believe that standing up for democracy is a crime. Neither do I, by the way. And I think most of your listeners won't either. And that's why he's pleading not guilty. Do you ever feel torn about that, though, from a personal degree, like being his son and not you know yeah obviously i'd rather you know have him with the family for christmas um instead of spending it in prison and and being

dragged through court kangaroo court um but i i'm incredibly proud of what my father's doing um you know showing that freedoms can't be traded, that actually there are stuff that's more important than making more money, that the freedoms that we all hold dear are freedoms that are human right. Like Ronald Reagan had a very good quote, is that freedom isn't the sole prerogative of a chosen few, it is the right of all of God's own children.

And Dad really embodied that. So much has changed in Hong Kong since China's national security law came into effect. Lately, we've seen jailed pro-democracy activists being asked to confess on television, something that we've seen on Chinese state media, but not in Hong Kong. Police have been offering up bounties for information leading to the arrests of activists who are abroad. The list goes on and on. So we've seen this dramatic change in Hong Kong. And we've seen this dramatic change in your dad's life in the last few years.

Someone that you describe as really embodying the resilience of Hong Kong people. So I'm wondering, how do you see the relationship between your dad's story and Hong Kong's story? My dad's story, actually, is how I see it, at least. His whole life has always been a pursuit of freedom. And it used to be a pursuit of his own freedom escaping from China and then financial freedom you know with his entrepreneurship and now he's he's he's he decided to stay in Hong Kong to to pursue the freedoms of the city that he loves I mean there's a video of him before the Hanover and and he's asked if he if he'll leave you know knowing knowing his journalism if he'll leave uh once um the uk hands hong kong over to china um and he tears up a bit he thinks about it he tears up a bit and he

says um what's my home i i love hong kong i'm not going to leave until unless my life is threatened and and he's kept true to his word. It's a place, Hong Kong was a place where a lot of refugees went, people like my father. And because of these refugees, and because of the freedoms that Hong Kong had, and the rule of law, they built it into the city it is today. And without those freedoms, without the rule of law, Hong Kong is just another city off the coast of China. So, yeah, my father's story, it really is one of a man in pursuit of freedom

and in defense of it. Thank you so much for your time, Sebastian. I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you, Elaine. If convicted, Jimmy Lai could be jailed for life. On Tuesday, his lawyers argued that Lai's sedition charge should be thrown out. The judges adjourned the case until Friday,

when they'll deliver a verdict on that request. That's all for today. I'm Elaine Chao. Damon Fairless will be back in the host chair tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.