Front Burner - A prominent Saudi activist's detention and sudden silence

Episode Date: August 11, 2020

Loujain Alhathloul, a Saudi women's rights activist who studied in Canada, has been imprisoned for the past two years. And now, her family, who used to be able to talk to her regularly, hasn't heard from her in seven weeks. Today, the CBC's Michelle Ghoussoub joins us to talk about how Alhathloul became one of the most prominent faces in the struggle for women's rights in Saudi Arabia, what her continued detention says about social reforms under the Saudi regime, and what her family thinks her silence means.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. In this 2014 video, which went viral around the world, a young Saudi woman in big sunglasses and a loose black headscarf is driving a car. She's saying, I'm going to cross the Saudi border.

I'm driving a car that I own and I have a UAE driver's license. I'm attempting to continue the Women's Right to Drive campaign. Let's see what happens. Her name is Lujain Al-Hatlul. She's a Saudi women's rights activist who studied in Canada. What she did there seems so innocent, but Lujain was arrested and imprisoned for 73 days for that drive. That's because back then, women were not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. The first day I was charged with driving as a woman, and then the charge disappeared. A few weeks later I was charged with inciting public opinion, which was translated later on into terrorist charges.

She was released from jail, but then in 2018, less than a month before the ban on women driving was officially lifted in the kingdom, she was detained again, along with nine other prominent women's rights activists. ...Prince Mohammed bin Salman introduced aggressive reforms in the country that this was announced. A royal decree has been issued in Saudi Arabia giving women the right to drive. When Saudi women are finally permitted to drive for the first time, those who did the most to advocate for the cause will be behind bars. Lujain has been in prison ever since.

She's been allowed a weekly visit, and then once the pandemic hit, it was a weekly phone call. But it's been seven weeks now since her family has been able to reach her. Her brother, Walid, who lives in Toronto, says it's been torture. This is a way to, you psychologically, and that is the reason we're doing this. CBC Vancouver reporter Michelle Goussoub has been following this story since Lujain was detained two years ago. Today, we'll get to know Lujain Al-Hatloul, what her continued detention says about the struggle to reform women's rights in Saudi Arabia, and how her silence speaks volumes.

I'm Michelle Shepard. This is FrontBurner. Hi Michelle, thanks for joining us. Hi there. When did you first hear about Lujain Al-Hathloul? I understand she'd been a student at UBC, and that was the same time when you were there as well. Yeah, so she got a degree in French from UBC. She was there from 2009 to 2014. I also graduated in 2014.

And I never got the chance to meet her, but we had some kind of people in our circles in common. So that was how, you know, when she was detained, my social media, people I knew in Vancouver here were posting about it. And having spoken to a lot of her professors and friends at UBC, she was described as, you know, the kind of student that was super engaged in class, the kind of person that was going to office hours, the kind of person that was always asking questions, was involved in a million clubs. She moved to Vancouver and then said, I want to try skydiving. That's the kind of person she is.

And I know some of your past reporting, people described her as having this real charisma about her. She was kind of this activist even before she started to become well-known as an activist. Yeah, people describe her as having this really kind of magnetic personality. And one professor of hers said, and I think this is really visible even in photos and videos of her, that she kind of has this spark in her eye. And you can really just get a sense that this was someone that had a lot of determination and a big personality. She should know that she has enormous support all around the world who admire not just the causes she's fighting for and her determination,

but how gutsy she is. And she knew the consequences of doing this. She was not naive about taking on some of these issues. And so there's something incredibly admirable about this woman. Do you know how she got involved in these issues, becoming a civil rights activist, particularly about Saudi Arabia? So having spoken to her brother, Walid, who is in Toronto, he says that the family spent quite a bit of time in France growing up. So, you know, all the children were kind of exposed to a lot of different cultures. And I think this is,

you know, something that is also echoed in the Arab Spring is this theme of young people in the Middle East who had access to the internet, who are seeing other styles of living, other lifestyles that people abroad were having and starting to question why do we not have these same opportunities? It all started by asking questions like why women aren't allowed to drive. And then when she grew up and got the advantage to come to Canada, she saw the movement on social media in Saudi Arabia. So she thought that that's a good time to be in. But he also said that their family, especially their mother,

was the kind of person who really pushed all the children to really pursue what they believed in and really fight for what they believed in. And that's how women's rights kind of became. She had made that decision, even when she was here at UBC, she had made that decision, even when she was here at UBC, she had made that decision that after graduating, she was going to go back to Saudi Arabia and fight for women's rights. And she made that very clear to her friends and her professors in Vancouver. We all agreed on, you know, women not allowed to drive wasn't making sense to us. But we were not as brave as Lujain to take action in this matter. And Lujain was actually the one who was spearheading that movement. And a lot of Canadians probably would recognize

photos of her from the news. She's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. She's been on Time Magazine's 100 list. She's been photographed with Meghan Markle. But can you give us a sense of how well known she is throughout the Middle East? She's very well known. Her face has kind of become, and you know, I think there's a couple of specific photos of her that I can think of that have just been everywhere. Those photos have really become symbolic of women's rights in Saudi Arabia. You cannot separate Lujain al-Hathloul and that fight. You know, even just last week, there was a protest in front of the Saudi embassy in Washington, D.C., where people had

posters of her face. And how has she viewed Michelle inside Saudi Arabia? You know, it's really difficult to tell. She definitely is a polarizing figure. The example I use is that every time I write one of these stories about her, and I post it on my Twitter, I'll wake up to, you know, 200, 300, or more notifications the next morning of, you know, accounts from Saudi Arabia, who are saying this person's a traitor, this is, you know, this story isn't true. It's difficult to know whether those accounts are bots or if they're real, but there is definitely a very concerted campaign to discredit her and portray her as a traitor. That does not mean she doesn't

have support in Saudi Arabia, but she definitely is, you know, she's this very polarizing, kind of galvanizing figure within the kingdom because of what she represents. It's promised by the government. They promise us that we are actually protected and we have the right to express ourselves freely without being condemned or sent to jail or whatever. But in practice, it's not there. Let's go back to that clip we played off the top. It's from 2014, when at 25 years old, Lou Jane drives herself from the United Arab Emirates

to try and cross the border into Saudi Arabia, and she live streams it. the United Arab Emirates to try and cross the border into Saudi Arabia, and she live streams it. And then, as we know, she ends up being detained for that for 73 days. Do you think she knew at the time that she'd be arrested? I think she absolutely knew. I think that was her intention going into it. And I think that's what I find so amazing about that clip is she has this moment where she says in Arabic, so she says, you know, let's see what's going to happen. And that's kind of her tone. I just find it quite impressive that such a young person would kind of go in with this

cavalier attitude, but also very much aware, you know, very aware of the seriousness of what she's doing and that she's going to end up detained. And I think that is why it went so viral. And that was why that kind of stunt got her this massive spotlight, because it was so brazen. And she went in with such kind of gusto and courage for such a young person. And it's remarkable that even after that detention in November, I guess it was 2015, she decides to run as a candidate in municipal elections. Yes. And this is the first time that Saudi women can vote or run. But that's pretty ambitious for a 26-year-old who's just a few months out of prison. Why do you think she did that? Well, in interviews at the time, she said that she was doing it to raise awareness.

I first applied as a candidate just to increase the number of women participation, because after one week and a half, the outcome was very low and very disappointing. So I decided to take part in it. She said she didn't in any way expect that she would win, but it was just, you know, we need to have as many women as possible on this ballot. So she, you know, ran, her name did not appear on the ballot. She appealed it. And she basically launched a massive social media campaign to get her name on the ballot. And her name was re-added. And she said, I basically annoyed them and was just so loud and would not let this slide that they were forced to put my name back on this ballot.

When I announced my comeback, it was almost unfair for the other women because I'm already known in the country. My tweet got about 900 retweets and almost half a million saw it. We want our voices to count. We are part of this society and we are the one actually running it, truly. And yet I understand that even on the day of voting, her name, despite all of this,

still wasn't on the ballot. Yeah, and I think that speaks to, you know, what you're kind of dealing with in Saudi Arabia. And, you know, that is also echoed in the lack of transparency around why she's in jail today. I guess it also speaks to her power, though, and the fear that the kingdom has of her influence, too. And that's something I find so interesting that, you know, I'm just this reporter sitting in Vancouver writing these stories and just having, you know, a Canadian journalist reporting on the fact that she's detained is enough for, you know, a Canadian journalist reporting on the fact that she's detained is enough for, you know, all of these Twitter accounts to try to discredit this information. And, you know, why is there so much fear of this one woman?

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there's a significant power shift taking place in the country. This is the story of a Saudi millennial whose progressive yet autocratic tendencies are sending shockwaves through the entire region. He's spent the last few years being effectively tutored by his father, the king. He has emerged from the shadows with a meteoric rise. And that's the rise of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who's generally seen to be the de facto ruler of the kingdom. Can you remind us what commitment he makes around women's rights at that time?

So when MBS, as people like to abbreviate his name, when he came in, he really promised that he was going to be a reformer and that he was going to ease a lot of these restrictions on women's freedoms in the kingdom, including women's right to drive and also guardianship laws in the country. And there was a kind of a massive media campaign where he spoke to all these Western journalists and all these profiles were written of him sort of saying is this the man that is really going to reform Saudi Arabia after you know decades of these very very strict rules it was actually quite I remember at that time it was it was quite a PR tour and there were many glowing profiles in the Western media of him he

lifted the ban on women driving, reintroduced public entertainment, and curbed the power of the unpopular religious police. He would describe himself as the first Saudi leader of this stature, raised in the Internet age, and someone who grew up playing video games. In the last year, he's been going around the world, almost embraced by leaders around the world, understandably welcoming the idea of reform in Saudi Arabia. Were people in the Middle East, or in particular Saudi Arabia, feeling the same way?

I think that it was interesting at the time to observe that the West was very, I mean, Western media, again, as you said, all these glowing profiles. And I think that people in the Middle East, and specifically Saudi Arabia were a little bit more skeptical. You know, maybe there was some cautious optimism and some hope that things could change for people who wanted that. But I don't think that anyone saw the rise of MBS within Saudi and assumed that, okay, we're going to become a Western democracy, you know, within five years, I think there was a lot of skepticism about him. He needs probably to focus a little bit more on what the people want, instead of what he sees as a potential and developed society. And to say that his government represents the people, It's not quite accurate. And then back to Loujain, we get to early 2018,

and she's actually back in school in the United Arab Emirates, focusing on her studies. And I understand she was detained at that point by the UAE, deported to Saudi Arabia, she's released. But then in May 2018, just a month before the driving ban is actually set to be lifted, one of MBS's reforms, Loujain and nine other women activists are arrested and imprisoned at a maximum security prison. What were they charged with? So they were charged with attempting to destabilize the country using foreign funds and creating a kind of terrorist cell. Now, if that sounds vague, it's because it is. I have never been able to get any more information about what the foreign funding was that has since been changed to communicating with foreign journalists and attempting to apply

for a job at the United Nations. Those are the updated charges. So very, very strange circumstances. And it should also be noted, again, that this was mere weeks before Saudi was set to lift its ban on women driving, which was exactly what these women had spent years and years advocating for. That's the confusing part of the narrative that the Saudi government is putting forward. What have they said about Loujain's case? You know, they have said very little. It's very, very difficult for the family to get any information. But sort of the sense of the timing of how that happened was MBS kind of wanting to send this message that, you know, while these women had been advocating for the right to drive and he was going to be implementing it, it was going to be on his terms. And so kind of this effort to discredit these women so that it wouldn't seem like he was bringing in these reforms because of them.

You understand the criticism. Why give women the freedom to drive and then imprison one of the most high-profile women who fought for the right to drive? The issue has nothing to do with that. There are laws in Saudi Arabia that must be respected, whether or not we agree with them, whether I personally agree with them or not. And I understand you've stayed close with her family, you've spoken with them during her detention, and that Amnesty International report that was released last year alleged that they were being tortured in prison.

Her parents allowed to visit her after four months of detention said they saw signs of brutal mistreatment, according to her siblings. The Saudi government denies any abuse. If this is correct, it is very heinous. Islam forbids torture. The Saudi laws forbid torture. Human conscience forbids torture. And I will personally follow up on this matter. You will personally follow up on it? Without a doubt. What did her family tell you about this? So very, you know, disturbing details that Lujain and others were, you know, suffered electrocution, flogging, sexual assault, and even sort of psychological torture of, you know,

Lujane would be in solitary confinement in the dark for days, and suddenly, you know, a group of men would burst into her room and start yelling in her face. Can you tell us more what you've learned through your parents in recent months? Yeah, sure. They take her to another place where they torture her. And when I say torture her, they are having fun. They are laughing at her. They attach her hands and legs and they electrocute her. The good thing is the family has said that torture has ceased,

that that is no longer something that she is suffering. But obviously it's been very difficult for them. And actually, the family in the initial months of this story were not talking to media. We said silence, it's the best protection for her. Because, you know, if we speak up, we might complicate her case. Upon realizing that that was not the case, they decided, you know what, we are going to start speaking out. And it was then that the family really started speaking to journalists and telling the world what was happening to their daughter and their sister. If I lose my sister, what else can I lose? So I said, my silence didn't protect her.

My silence, the worst thing happened to her when I was silent. So I decided to speak up. I remember one of your reports at one point saying that the family had told you that she was actually offered a deal at one point to be released from prison. What did she do? And what can you tell me about that deal? Yeah, so this was when she had already been detained for 14 months. So you know, already a significant amount of time in these difficult conditions. And she was offered a deal where if she signed a document that said, I have not been tortured in prison, she would be released. And she initially said, yes, she initially said, I will sign this paper and I will be able to get out. And then they changed the deal.

to get out. And then they changed the deal. They said, okay, now you have to make a video statement, look into the camera and say, I did not suffer torture or sexual assault. And that was a step too far for her. She took the paper. This is what her brother told me. She took the paper, she ripped it in half, she threw the papers in their face, and she said no. And, you know, she's still in jail now. How did her family feel about that choice? It was interesting speaking to Waleed. He told me that it was difficult for the family. People had mixed reactions. You know, some people kind of said, you know,

if you'd gone on camera and said this, everyone would have known it was a lie. So why not just kind of get out so that you can live your life? I mean, we have to remember this is a very young woman. She was 30 years old when this happened. She has her life ahead of her and she's been in jail for over two years. So the family was kind of divided just because it kind of felt for a second like maybe she was going to get out. But at the end of the day they said that they support her no matter what.

She will be fine and she will be out one day. That's for sure. This is my mission in life that they support her out of jail. So we know Lujain is in prison awaiting trial that has now been delayed indefinitely due to the pandemic. But I'm wondering if you can give us a sense of what type of impact she's had and the other activists on women's rights in Saudi Arabia and continue to even in their silence now. I think it's important to note that there, you know, there have been reforms in Saudi Arabia over the past months, over the past year or so. But I think the case of Loujain and other activists has really kind of brought home the reality that while, you know, in Western media, it's very easy for us to cover these reforms with a very, you know, positive light and say,

you know, women are getting more rights in Saudi Arabia. It's kind of a reminder that at the end of the day, freedom of speech and activism are not tolerated in the kingdom. And I think more than that, I think Loujean has just become so synonymous with the movement. And I think more than that, I think Lujane has just become so synonymous with the movement. And I think it's kind of incredible that, you know, we have not heard her voice in over two years, we have not seen a new photo of her for two years. And yet the movement in support of her, it has not slowed down. It really just kind of speaks to the power she wields, despite the fact that she has not been able to use her own voice for over two years. I think she has become a symbol for, you know, the oppression and a symbol for women's rights. They saw her sacrifice. She just sacrificed her own privilege for the sake of greater women's

rights in Saudi Arabia. And people appreciated that. And what's it been like, Michelle, for her family now that even the phone calls for the last seven weeks have stopped? It has been very, very difficult for the family. Waleed called it psychological torture. He said every day he wakes up and thinks of his sister. And it's also very difficult because the family has been placed under a travel ban, and the family members that are in Saudi Arabia cannot leave Saudi. The family members that are outside of Saudi Arabia cannot travel to Saudi because then they won't be able to leave. And so it's just been an incredibly difficult situation for the Al-Hathlul family.

And what do they think may have happened to her in the last few weeks? do they think may have happened to her in the last few weeks? You know, they don't know. Walid's speculation is that it is to punish the family by not allowing them to speak with her, not knowing if she's okay. But he says, you know, while in the beginning, this situation was incredibly difficult, it's become part of the family's DNA. And they will never give up hope that she will get out of jail. And I know you asked Waleed what he would say to her if he could right now. What did he tell you? Well, it was Lujain's birthday last week. And so he said he would wish her a happy birthday. Happy birthday, Lujain. And I hope you're doing well. I hope you're in good health. I hope you're safe. I know that you're strong

and you're going to overcome this ordeal, basically. And I hope you get out of jail as soon as possible. It was quite a moment to hear that from him. Michelle, thanks so much for joining me today and for your reporting on this. Thank you. Before we go, some news to catch you up on. It's been a week since the devastating explosion in Beirut. And in recent days, there have been protests and widespread anger at the government about what happened. at the government about what happened.

On Monday, Lebanese Prime Minister Hassan Diab said that his entire cabinet would step down. He said in part, quote, Today we follow the will of the people in their demand to hold accountable those responsible for the disaster. We'll have more on this story for you later in the week. But that's all for today. I'm Michelle Shepherd.

Thanks for listening to Front Burner.