Front Burner - A tale of two virtual political conventions

Episode Date: April 12, 2021

As a federal election looms, two parties mustered over the weekend. Power & Politics host Vassy Kapelos joins Jayme Poisson to break down what happened at the Liberal and NDP policy conventions.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. So two virtual political conventions this weekend, the Liberals and the NDP. From a technical perspective, one went a little bit smoother than the other. I've been trying to speak for about an hour and a half now. Even though I was the first person in line, I was not identified at all for procedural votes. Just having trouble

getting to my buttons on time. I'd love to speak on this, but there was a woman in the pro mic, there was Diana Yoon well ahead of me. On the policy front, though, not a whole lot of daylight on the big ticket items from the two parties' leadership right now, though certainly some bolder stuff as you move further down the ranks to delegates who are putting all sorts of policies forward. We've now heard from the three biggest political parties. They've all had virtual conventions, and we're starting to get more of a sense of what their pitches are going to be for the upcoming election. Today, Power & Politics host Vashi Kapelos is here

to go over what happened this weekend. Hey, Vashi. Hi, Jamie. Thanks for being here. So let's start with the Liberal Convention. And for those who did not spend their entire weekend watching virtual conventions on their laptops, I want to go through a few key moments with you and talk about what they told you. So first up, the prime minister gave a speech on Saturday afternoon. And what did you hear from him? What stood out to you? I think what I went in looking for was some hints as to how the Liberals and he would try and characterize the opposition going into a potential election whenever that happens. And that's certainly what I walked away with an impression of. And by that, I mean, a lot of

what we heard from him is what we're used to hearing for him, kind of trumpeting his party, his government's way in which they've handled the pandemic and the measures that they've brought in. But what he did this time was go a lot more partisan. While Erin O'Toole's Conservatives gleefully told Canadians it might be years until they got their shot, the reality is very different. We're on track to meet our commitment that every Canadian who wants to will be fully vaccinated by the end of the summer. And the way in which he characterized

in particular the Conservatives and the bloc, so the Conservatives, he really said, were out of touch with Canadians. And he had kind of a laundry list of examples that he used from his perspective to support that argument. So things like their position on climate change and what happened at the Conservative convention with that motion not being able or that policy plank not being able to go forward. And how disconnected do you have to be to refuse to admit climate change is real, even as people's basements flood and wildfires tear through communities? Some of the stances that they've taken on the CERB or vaccines. The problem for Aaron O'Toole is that he's not interested in real solutions to real problems. In fact, he's already shown that he's willing to say different things to different people at different times if he thinks it'll help him get ahead.

Let's say all of it was not exactly the truth, but certainly there were grains of truth to all of it. And so it was really interesting to see the way in which the Liberals planned to characterize the Conservatives going forward into another election, and then the Bloc kind of secondarily as the main criticism was, like, they're not going to actually be able to do a lot of what they say they're going to do. We're always there for the Quebecers and for all Canadians, and we're going to continue to have a gathering message instead of looking for the chicanes. So that was the main kind of takeaway for me.

Right. He was saying essentially, you know, we are the party for Quebecers because we can actually get stuff done for Quebecers. It was interesting to me, Fashi, he didn't even mention the Greens or the NDP by name. And why do you think that is? I think that's super interesting as well. I take a couple things from it.

The first is that what we have witnessed in the past two elections, and that is the migration of some people who would normally vote for those parties over to the Liberals, as almost kind of building a more solid base for the Liberals, like it's a base that they really need fed into that. So does he want to alienate people who would normally lean towards those parties but might find themselves a home in the Liberals? Probably not. The other thing I took from it, though, is kind of almost like a more politically crass view, wherein the main competition for the Liberals,

and we did really see this in the last election, right? It's like a two-horse race kind of thing. And in Quebec, it's a two-horse race just with a different party, the Bloc. And so I think like that this sort of reiterated that for me or almost like confirmed it. That's the way in which these kind of two lead parties view the race going into the election. Right. Right. A two horse race between the conservatives and the liberals in most parts of the country. And I want to talk to you more about the NDP in a minute, but let's stick with the Liberals here. So another event, I guess you could call it, that people were watching pretty closely,

Finance Minister Christia Freeland's virtual fireside chat, I guess, with former Liberal Cabinet Minister Ken Dryden. And what was the big headline that came out of that one? Nothing like a virtual fireside chat to really get things going. Hey, Jamie, the big headline. Really exciting. Yeah. So, so everyone's watching this talk in particular, because she's, Minister Freeland is not only the Deputy Prime Minister, she's the Finance Minister. And what's coming up in a little over a week, the federal budget, the long awaited two years in the making

federal budget. And in particular, we had all been kind of, you know, told behind the scenes, oh, there'll be some big hints about what to expect in this budget. And I think the main takeaway from her speech has to be around childcare and how that might maybe potentially, certainly fit into the next budget. I use all those random words because, yes, she signaled quite clearly that she feels now is the time that there is kind of the political window available to bring something in that looks maybe something like what we see in Quebec, for example. Ken, I have written down in big letters on my notebook here, fight the big fight and build systems. And that is such excellent advice for early learning and childcare. But there weren't exactly like 100 specifics about what

that will look like. Okay, okay. And to be fair, a national childcare plan is certainly something that this party has been talking about since like the mid 90s, right? Yeah, including Ken Dryden, who interviewed her in such instead, instead, fireside chat, right? He's someone who used to talk about it quite a bit. And that's why I sort of contrast that probably more was said than ever has before, from this government about what about what's going to happen, and that something will happen. But I do think it's important to highlight until we know the details of how that will roll out. Because like you've got to get provincial buy-in, for example.

There's got to be a huge amount of money attached to it. And as you point out, it has been promised before. Like what in this instance will make it actually come to fruition? And it looks like we'll be waiting until the budget to find that out. So obviously a national child care plan. When it comes to other big government programs or big government solutions, did we hear anything this weekend about any of that? Because it is clear from polling that Canadians are not in the mood right now for small government and that there is a real appetite for policies that could really address some of these inequalities that the pandemic has exacerbated and really shone a spotlight on?

I mean, you're right. There were, like, if you look at the top 10 policy proposals that made it forward from this convention, number one is pharmacare. Then there's a universal basic income. There's talk about, like, a Green New Deal. There's a whole host of things that are all about big government and all about addressing a lot of what was seen in the pandemic and then that kind of thing, whether it translates into what the government puts forward and even in particular what the prime minister ends up supporting, because he kind of has a history of not always supporting that kind of stuff off the off the top or when it first gets proposed and taking a while to get there. So it will be interesting to see how much of that sentiment actually makes it into,

for example, the party's platform going forward. Okay, okay. And you know, since we're on the topic of delegate proposals that have been discussed this weekend, I want to talk to you about one that got voted down and ask you, you know, what this tells you. So essentially, what got voted down is a proposal that would make people pay taxes on all of the gains that they make on investments like a stock. So right now it's 50 percent. And the criticism of this is really that this benefits the rich. And what does it tell you that it got voted down? I think it sort of echoes what I was saying about what you can expect from the platform. Like the party is still to the right of the parties further on the left,

if that makes sense. So it's not necessarily like right down the center anymore. It's definitely to the left of the center. But there are certain places where they'll stop short of going as far as, for example, the NDP or the Greens would. Mm-hmm. All right, so before we move on here, I do want to do a little bit of political gossip with you. Move away from policy for a second.

Much talked about speech on Friday night by former Bank of Canada and Bank of England, Governor Mark Carney. And so there's been lots of speculation that he has political ambitions. And he talked on Friday about... Humility means recognizing the great good fortune that I've had growing up and the responsibility of service that comes with that.

And that's why I'll do whatever I can to support the Liberal Party in our efforts to build a better future for Canadians. Which, you know, sort of sounds like somebody who's interested in a political future. And what do you think is going to happen here? How likely do you think it is that he'll run for a seat in the upcoming election? Well, I feel like every political nerd and reporter like myself was like clinging to that last night. Like he said, wait a second. He said, in our efforts. You know, like, oh, my gosh.

This is it's like that because he has been so dogmatic about not going there, even though the speculation has been rampant. Like for years, everyone in and around politics knows that he has been highly sought after and not just by the liberals, right? To a certain degree by certain factions of the Conservative Party as well. So you kind of always knew he was leading this way, but then when he said that one line,

and I'm so glad that you pulled it, he'll do whatever I can to support the Liberal Party in our efforts I mean that was that was a big um a big telltale sign that I think a lot of us journalists were like oh okay this is definitely moved into the next inning right he's picked a team yeah yeah he's picked a team we're moving into the next inning like the the groundwork has been laid but i think like being able to predict exactly what happens uh with him you know everyone i've talked to says he's not a guy who's necessarily interested in anything but the leadership of the party but i mean to be totally transparent i mean who the other name that you always hear bandied about when the prospect of

justin trudeau leaving the leadership of the party is mentioned is the Deputy Prime Minister, Chrystia Freeland, right? And so I think, like, ultimately, right now, that's where the conversation is. And on top of that, we don't even have a promise or a timeline from the Prime Minister about how long he has left at the helm of that party. So I think there's, like, by that, I mean mean like there's a thousand question marks however like 400 of them got eliminated this weekend with just that line of his speech so there's interest in i think a political future with that party from him which is clear but just everything i've heard is like the interest is not about being you know a parliamentary secretary for

a year yeah he wants to be the prime minister. Yeah. And just to be clear, like, there's absolutely no indication that Trudeau is going to step down from leadership, like the plan is, is that he will bring his party into the next election, the next election. And he certainly didn't sound like he was ready to, you know, jump away from it during his speech this weekend but i will say behind the scenes like those conversations are very active i mean the pandemic has thrown a wrench in all this but the conventional wisdom was okay maybe he runs in the next election they get the uh majority that they're looking for let's say and for the sake of argument and then within six or eight or ten months he steps steps back. And that leaves room for

the next leader. So that was the conversation pre pandemic. Obviously, everything's kind of changed since then. Okay, I like these conversations are very, very fun to speculate about this stuff. Or at least fun for losers like us, I guess. All right, so before we move on to the NDP, I just want to note one more thing. Speaking of the pandemic and an election, it was very clear this weekend from this convention that a spring election is very much off the table, right? That the election will be tied to where we are at in the pandemic. And we have to basically be through it is what I heard. Yeah, I think you're 100% right. Like, all the sessions were focused on election readiness.

But so much of it was prefaced around the idea of how do we get ready to show Canadians how we would lead them through an economic recovery. I read an interview with Melanie Jolie, the co-chair of the convention with the Globe and Mail in which she talked about, you know, it has to come after the vaccine rollout kind of thing. All right. I'm going to go. and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. All right, so let's talk about the NDP. I think we have to start with what feels like the most obvious feature of this convention,

which is their technical issues. Vashi, just describe for me what it was like to watch this. It was a bit rough, right? You got to have a little bit of, like, I had a bit of sympathy. Having lived on the other end of pandemic TV for the last 14 months, and I can't even tell you how many Skypes failing in the middle of interviews or dogs barking. I had a tiny internet glitch. I assume others have had similar challenges. The chair could perhaps read back each amendment when it comes forward. Thank you very much for your point. And actually,

we are trying to get the text of the amendments, which we have not received yet. More seriously, there were not just technical glitches, but among delegates who were debating and discussing some of the policy proposals put forth, there was certainly the sentiment expressed that things weren't working, that they needed to rely on, that they didn't have enough time to be able to debate policy proposals. There were even some delegates saying, I would like to motion that this entire convention be postponed until it can become accessible to people living with disabilities and that gender parity can be respected as it is not being respected. Cherry picking is happening with the speakers list. So it took a bit of a pretty serious turn and definitely wasn't a good look for the party.

Yeah. So I also want to talk to you about, you know, the policy conversations that they were able to have sort of in between these technical glitches. We've talked about this quite often on this show, that the liberals have essentially taken support away from the NDP in the last two elections. done that in part by moving more left of center talking about big sort of traditionally NDP-ish policies like national pharmacare more and more and so how did the NDP address that at the convention how did they speak to what was you know basically happening at the other virtual convention well a lot of that is done through the party's leader, Jagmeet Singh. And I had the opportunity to interview him just a few days ago. And his argument is one that we've certainly heard from him before. And that is almost two part.

First of all, like, we're the ones fighting for you. We are the ones advocating for sick leave or national pharma care or universal child care. The Liberals wanted to do the minimum. They started off with a 10% wage subsidy. We fought and won and secured a 75%. When people needed help to put food on the table and pay their bills, the Liberals started off with $1,000. We doubled that to $2,000 support. So when people needed help, we were there for them. But at the same time, we are the ones who would actually implement it. So the second kind of part of Mr. Singh's argument is that the Liberals say they'll do this stuff,

but they're not actually going to do it. And so if you actually want to see it implemented, if you want to see it come to fruition, the argument I'm going to be making is that the NDP is the one that can make that happen. We want to show that time and time again, Liberals have chosen to vote against pharmacare, they voted against the wealth tax, they voted against removing profit out of long-term care. All of these things speak directly to what people are worried about. On each of these

important points, the Liberals voted against people and stood up for the wealthiest and those at the very top. Now whether or not that convinces Canadians is a whole other question I think, but that's certainly the way in which I think the Liberal or the NDP, sorry, plan to differentiate themselves or create that cleavage between themselves and the Liberals. OK, I mean, I take that argument that this is a party that hasn't done it. But but, you know, still, like what is the MDP doing policy wise, if anything, to differentiate themselves from the liberals? Like, were we seeing, like a whole lot of daylight between the two parties, you know, at all discussing issues? Well, I think to a certain degree you are, but on the big ticket issues, like, let's just take pharmacare, for example,

you are but on the big ticket issues like let's just take pharma care for example there isn't really there were some other things for example like around taxing people like a wealth tax that's a big one for the ndp that's something that they've talked about for a long time or raising the federal minimum wage to 20 things like that i think will certainly start start depicting a different suite of policies to Canadians. But like the question is, is it enough? Because on the big ticket items like pharmacare, like childcare, there isn't a whole lot of room between them. Yes, there is that argument that you can make that the Liberals maybe haven't implemented it to this or wouldn't implement it to the same degree.

But like my bottom line is, is that enough to convince people who are saying, well, I wouldn't normally vote liberal, I'm not sure, but the conservatives could win. So I think I am going to write like, they they're giving me enough that I can't, that's the that's the real challenge for the NDP. Why aren't they putting more daylight between themselves and the liberals? Why aren't they really adopting a suite of policies that would set them apart? Well, I think, I mean, it remains to be seen to what degree they do in their platform going forward. But so far, it really seems to me, at least from my conversations with people who are involved at the highest levels of the NDP's campaigns, people who are involved at the highest levels of the NDP's campaigns, that where they feel in the past they might have fallen a bit short is in creating an expectation among Canadians

that they are not aiming to form government, that they are aiming to represent specific interests in specific constituencies or specific parts of the country. And so they hope to go into the next election. And I mean, the ads that they played this weekend in Hockey Night in Canada speak to that. Big ad buy before we're even close to a writ period or before we're close to an election. Trying to change the image, I think, that Canadians have of them. At least this is what they tell me, as kind of

settling for third or fourth party, right? And so I think if you are to adopt a suite of policies that cater very much to specific interests, and that's not a, I'm not rendering a judgment on any of those interests, it's just they are more specific interests, you might alienate yourself from a broader swath of voters. And so that's reflected, I think, in some, like Jagmeet Singh, for example, some of those policies, like getting rid of the military, he's rejected already. Right. This is a policy that was discussed at this weekend, getting rid of the military, wholesale. You know, you talked about a wealth tax. There was also a discussion about just abolishing billionaires. So once you make a billion dollars, you pay 100% tax on all the money that you make after that.

But look, just to push back on this for a minute, I get the strategy that you want to try and appeal to as many voters as possible, but it also strikes me that maybe this is a different moment in time coming out of the pandemic. We have seen just how broken the system can be for people, just how deep the inequities go. And, you know, I take your point, too, that we haven't seen their full platform here. But if Jagmeet Singh's speech this weekend is any indication, you know, he's not like really going for it. And what we need right now is a plan with all hands on deck to get every single person in our country vaccinated. And we need a paid sick leave that actually works for everyone now. You know, I'm not hearing this guy talk about national labour laws that would give people things like more rights for gig workers, for part-time workers.

things like more rights for gig workers, for part-time workers, like a really detailed explanation of what a just transition for workers in Alberta actually means, like providing a vision for the people who may be falling through the cracks of the liberal policies. And why wouldn't that be a good strategy right now? I think you're right. In order to distinguish themselves and sort of not be the place that people leave to go vote for the liberals because they're afraid of strategy right now. I think you're right. In order to distinguish themselves and sort of not be the place that people leave to go vote for the Liberals because they're afraid of conservatives getting in, they might have to be more detailed or more bold in what they put forward. I would just say I can't prejudge necessarily exactly what they put forward in their platform and how much of that platform will draw from some of the stuff put forward in their platform and how much of that platform will draw from some of the stuff put forward at this convention. I just know that so far he's rejected some of it. Yeah. All right.

Well, lots for us to watch out for in the coming months. Vashi, thank you as wrap up today, a little more news out of the NDP convention. Things concluded on a victorious note for Singh, who survived a leadership review. 87% of NDP delegates voted against triggering a leadership race. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.