Front Burner - A WNBA star, detained in Russia

Episode Date: March 24, 2022

For more than a month, one of the biggest women’s basketball stars in the world has been detained in Russia. Russian officials are alleging that Brittney Griner, a centre for the Phoenix Mercury of the WNBA, brought cannabis oil into the country. Much remains unknown about Griner’s case — including whether there’s any evidence to those charges. But with Russia continuing its war in Ukraine, the timing could hardly be worse. Today, ESPN investigative reporter T.J. Quinn joins us to talk about Griner’s detention, why so many WNBA stars go to Russia and the heated debate over whether talking more about Griner’s case would harm her — or help bring her home.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm JP Tasker, filling in for Jamie Poisson. For more than a month, one of the biggest women's basketball stars in the world has been detained in Russia. Brittany Griner is the latest high-profile American detained in Russia. She was arrested at a Moscow airport last month. Russian officials say they arrested Brittany Greiner, a center for WNBA team the Phoenix Mercury,

on cannabis charges. And her detention couldn't come at a worse time in the middle of Russia's war in Ukraine. Many fans and advocates are outraged at what they see as a muted response to Greiner's story in the media. Today, sources telling ABC and ESPN that the State Department has asked Greiner's supporters to keep everything on a low simmer. And they want the U.S. government to make more noise about her case too. But the reasons for a quiet response, is a homophobic country. Britney being gay, I'm fearful that that will be used against her. But the reasons for a quiet response, they're actually a lot more complex

and political than they might seem. Today, I'm speaking to TJ Quinn, an ESPN investigative reporter, about Britney Greiner, why so many WNBA stars go to Russia, and whether talking more about Greiner's case would harm her or help bring her home. Hi TJ, thanks for joining me. Great to be with you. So for people who don't follow the WNBA,

or basketball for that matter, can you just tell us a bit about who Brittany Griner is, and why she's such a big deal in women's basketball? She isn't just one of the best to ever play the game, which she absolutely is. She stands apart for her size, her dominance. She's one of the tallest players in history, 6'9". Ever since she was in high school in Houston, she has been a fixture in women's basketball. Brittany Griner is so big, so long, so athletic, and that's what she does better than anyone else. Two-time Olympian, gold medalist, All-American in college, absolute dominant force on the court,

and one of very few women who have dunked in a game. The history is blinding those flying women with the two-handed jump on the right arm too. I mean, no one else, no other woman who plays basketball can do that. Two-handed, two feet, just goes up. And a lot of people see her as an icon off the court too, right? Tell me about her activism. She seems to be a leading voice on some issues in recent years. She has been, and that really started around 2013 when she came out as a lesbian.

If you know, then you know. Come out. Don't hide it. Don't try to be like anybody else. Be who you are. Be comfortable in your own skin. And said that she was just going to be open with the world about who she was. She made some headlines in 2020 when she suggested that the WNBA stopped playing the national anthem before games and protests going on all over the country.

But in particular, she was raising awareness about Breonna Taylor's case. She's been very vocal in a league that generally prides itself on its activism. And since 2015, she's also been playing in the offseason in Russia. I'll be honest, TJ, I didn't know basketball had much of a following in Russia, but it does. And there are tons of WNBA players that make the trek to that region each year to play ball. Why do they do that? Money. I mean, it's really that simple. Well, not just the money, but the lifestyle that goes with it. For some reason, a number of Russian oligarchs have decided that they love the women's game

and they have put tons of money behind these teams over there. We consistently had a good flow of fans. I don't know if they sell tickets. I don't know what the marketing and promotion is, but they consistently got people to come to the games. We're here in the WNBA and we struggle and we have tickets for $10. So while a WNBA player in North America can make six figures and she makes somewhere in the 200,000 range, they can make more than a million playing a brief season over in Russia. And when they're there, they get the full-on treatment. In the U.S., there's been

pushback from WNBA owners about even providing them with charter planes. They want them to fly commercially. In Russia, they get the full LeBron James treatment, and they've been clear about just how great it is to experience that. It's been a tug of war for like the top players in this league because overseas, it almost feels like they appreciate us more by the pay that they're able to pay us. Now, on the other hand, that meant overlooking where that oligarch money comes from, which is what everyone's starting to face right now. Let's just put some of this in perspective, shall we? Brittany Griner gets about $221,000 a year playing in the WNBA. In contrast, LeBron James will make more than $41 million this season. So there's a huge disparity there.

And let's go back to what you were saying there about the oligarchs. You know, is it economical for some of these guys to be paying these women basketball players such high salaries? Or is it really just all about the glamour of running a high-flying franchise with some big U.S. stars? I don't see how anybody is really making that kind of money when they're making huge profits, when they're paying those kind of salaries. It's not like there's a huge market for it over there. And there have been accusations that these are other areas where oligarchs can launder money. There's certainly plenty of that that goes on. But it is interesting that Russia has had a different view about women in athletics than the United States has, for sure.

women in athletics than the United States has, for sure. I mean, I spent some time reading about World War II and how Russia celebrated women who were in combat. One of the greatest heroes of the Soviet Union was a woman who was a sniper. Throughout the history of communist Russia and the Soviet Union, women were seen as part of the vanguard of the revolution. And so women's sports have been an extension of that. So for a country that may not be known for being particularly progressive, especially right now, when it comes to women or gender issues, when it comes to sports, there is a pretty big following. So let's dig into her case in particular a little bit. Let's talk about what we know and don't know about Brittany Griner's detention. Why did the Russian officials bring her in? What has she been accused of doing? She was accused of bringing vape cartridges that contained hashish oil into the country. And Russia has very strict anti-drug laws. It's similar to what you saw in the U.S. in the 1980s.

That really is all we know. We've seen the video of her going through customs. She's pretty easy to pick out of a crowd. And then her bag is pulled aside. And that's really all we know is what Russian officials have told us. So there isn't actually any hard evidence that she was carrying this cannabis product into the country. Do we even know if she vapes? How do we follow that? Well, they say that they have the evidence, but here's where it gets really tricky. Russia has a criminal justice system with due process until it doesn't. And again, everything I'm saying is because I've spoken to actual experts. I am not an expert on Russian criminal law, but I've spoken to a number of them the past couple of weeks. weeks. You know, you can get a fair trial there. You do have an attorney. You can get a court appointed attorney. She's got her own Russian attorneys there who have access to her several days a week. But the reality is it's Russia does have a history of framing people. There was a

Russian dissident that, you know, I interviewed several years ago who was warned that they were going to try to set him up. And when he was arrested, his wife was on the phone with his lawyer who kept screaming, don't let his luggage out of your sight because the traditional MO is to plant drugs in it. Is it possible somebody planted drugs? It's possible. Will they have a chance to challenge that evidence? They'll have a chance. But the reality is if someone in the Russian government decides, we're going to make an example of her, it doesn't matter if they have evidence. If it gets Orwellian at that point, if they say there's evidence, well, then as far as the Russian criminal justice system is concerned, yes, there is.

You mentioned that there is fear of phony charges in the past. You know, some advocates and experts, including former U.S. diplomat Daniel Freed, have said they're concerned these charges could be politically motivated. And one of the reasons for that concern is that two Americans are already being held in Russian prisons right now, Trevor Reed and Paul Whelan, who's also a Canadian citizen, I should say. And the charges against them are largely believed to be false.

In June, Paul Whelan was sentenced to 12 years prison for espionage. Some former US intelligence officials believe he was taken by Russia as a bargaining chip. But increased tensions with Russia means there are concerns that Americans are more at risk of being targeted. And a spokesperson for Trevor Reed has said he suspects the same thing could be happening for Greiner. Is there any evidence at this point that that might be the case here, that it's politically motivated? There isn't yet. And that yet is a pretty important part of that sentence. If she was,

you know, targeted for propaganda reasons, they haven't done much to propagandize her arrest. You know, I've spoken to people in Russia who have said there's been very little media attention to it. There was a photo of her that some U.S. outlets have used, a short snippet of video of her supposedly walking into a hearing. But there has not been a ton of press about it. So if they're using it for propaganda, they're not doing a great job. Maybe they're waiting to. But in the case of Trevor Reed, for example, Vladimir Putin himself

described him as a hooligan and a thug. That was a clearly politicized case. And you've seen cases in the past. There's one, you know, 2019, an Israeli woman who was traveling to India and just connecting through Russia was arrested with, you know, what was said to be cannabis. An American Israeli woman arrested in Russia is now at the center of a diplomatic standoff between Israel, Russia and the United States. Israeli officials are pleading for the release of Nama Issachar, a New Jersey native. She was ultimately released because the government's cut a deal. Russia denies this was the case, but here's how it laid out. Israel suddenly gave Russia access to

an area of Jerusalem that it wanted. And Vladimir Putin then pardoned this woman himself, said it was out of mercy. So we have not seen discussions on that level. Does that mean they're not happening? We don't know. We just know that there has not been some big media blitz in Russia saying, look at what this decadent American has done. They may also be distracted by some of the other coverage. There are other things going on. Yes. So you mentioned that she has she has met with some attorneys. I think even today, the U.S. State Department said that some consular officials have been able to visit with Greiner.

I believe it was today. And they report that she's in good condition. Do we know what kind of conditions she's in right now? What kind of prison? What is she living with? Have we had an eye on her since she was first detained? We haven't. And really, until those consular officials were able to meet with her. The only information her camp was getting was

through her Russian attorneys. Someone close to Brittany told me last week that they knew she was okay. Not good, but okay. There was a report from TASS, one of several Russian state-owned news agencies, that said she had a couple of roommates and was reading Dostoevsky and mentioned that her bed was too small, which that I can certainly believe. But these are not reliable reports. You really have to look at it by default as a propaganda statement. It's all Russian control. So people around her knew not to trust that, that they're they're going by what they're hearing from from her attorneys. It sounds like by that description that she's about how you would expect. I mean, not thrilled to be there in custody. This is someone who has talked before about mental health struggles that she's had facing fiveacing five to 10 years in a Russian prison certainly

isn't going to help her state of mind. Yeah. I mean, she's probably unlike a lot of the other prisoners in there, too, right? I mean, she's black, she's gay. And this really isn't a place known for tolerance by any means. Do you think that factors into any of this? Is there concerns about her safety because of her identity? I haven't heard any concerns about her safety at the moment. You know, if it is the case, no one from her camp or the State Department has said that yet. The concerns I've heard raised are that that status, that potential she has to be a powerful cultural symbol, that could be a factor if she were to get on Vladimir Putin's radar or somebody in his government who wants to say, you know, hey, look, this is what happens with liberal democracy in the West. And, you know, using their term as the West, you know, this is the danger.

Russian mothers, this is what's going to happen to your daughters. They're going to be a bunch of drug addled, you know, lesbians covered in tattoos. You know, it just becomes a symbol for them to wave. So that's the concern. Not so much, you know, the state that she's in right now, but what could happen if somebody decided to really try to leverage who she is. Yeah, not necessarily in the Griner case, but I've heard Russian officials use the term woke recently. I think they're trying to make some stark comparisons between what it's like in Russia and in the West. Well, they are. And the language has mirrored what you see in the American right and even in

the Canadian right. You know, that part of what Putin has done to try to maintain some alliances with the American right wing has been to say, hey, Russia is the vanguard against wokeness, rampant wokeness in Europe and in the world. And that's the kind of cultural battle that Brittany Griner's supporters and the current U.S. administration don't want to see her pulled into. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income?

That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. We can't ignore the timing of all this. Of course, it's happening in the midst of the Russia-Ukraine war, the Russian invasion of Ukraine. What kind of impact might that have on Greiner's situation? von Greiner's situation? It just makes it a chaotic mess, basically. I mean, it's start with the oligarchs themselves, right? Traditionally, Americans who are traveling over there, if you're playing for a team like that, or if you're a business traveler who's in a major industry, and you're going under the protection of an oligarch, it's kind of like traveling in certain neighborhoods if a mob boss says, you're okay. You know you've got a certain level of protection. Well, the oligarchs are who most

of the sanctions are targeted against, so their power is in question. Then you've got the diplomatic mess. Russia recently threatening to cut off all diplomatic ties to the U.S. U.S. is already operating under a skeleton staff at the embassy there. I heard one official say to call it a skeleton staff would be an insult to skeletons. And if you're at a point where they get kicked out of the country, now you've got nobody left to monitor her. But on the other hand, Russia's got so many other problems, and you've got the jails being filled with people who are protesting the war. And by the way, you're forbidden from calling it a war over there under penalty of prison that I've had some people suggest, hey, maybe there's a silver lining for her that, you know, it's possible a prosecutor, a judge could say, we don't need this headache right now, get her out of here. But that's looking more unlikely. Right. And as you've alluded to, you know, there really has been a certain level of quiet around this story. You know, the response seems strangely muted from everybody. I

mean, her detention wasn't even public knowledge at all until the Russian customs officials came forward to announce it, which we believe was about two weeks after they detained her. And there really hasn't been a ton of media coverage around it. You know, I've seen some people online comparing this to how much wall-to-wall coverage there would probably be if, say, LeBron James or Kevin Durant were detained in Russia. You know, what have you heard from people close to Greiner about this? Well, you're right. It's been deliberate. They want to keep this low profile because the more you raise her profile, the more you raise her value as a political chit. If you see a ton of media attention to her at some point, the Russian government just

have to look at this purely in economic terms and say she's too valuable for us to just let her slip under the radar. Let's leverage her for something. But on the other hand, part of what Putin has always thrived on is making Western leaders look ineffective. And that's another thing that the US government is trying to avoid. If there's a ton of attention to her case right now, and the US has no way to get her out, and frankly, right now, there really is not unless they were to cut some deal. Hey, Putin may want to cut a deal. Maybe there's something he wants. Maybe there's somebody he wants released from U.S. custody, or there's a specific ask. But in the past, he's shown he's content to just sit there and let us scream as much as we want and do nothing because that is one of the goals.

That ineffectuality of a foreign leader is just fine with him. And so, you know, the strategy by the U.S. State Department, and I guess her loved ones are kind of following their guidance on this, but the strategy of keeping things really quiet, you know, has been criticized by a number of people. One of those people is Jason Rezaian. He's a Washington Post journalist who was detained in Iran for, I think it was 544 days or something like that. Breaking news on the American reporter being held in Iran for more than a year on spying charges. We're learning this morning that Jason Rezaian has been convicted. He's basically argued that, firstly, from all the other cases he's looked at, keeping quiet, this keeping quiet strategy, just it isn't effective. Once the Russian state media presented a picture, a mugshot of Brittany Griner and announced the alleged allegations in her case, the cat's out of the

bag. This is a matter of public record and concern at this point. And we should be talking about it and we should be shining a light on it for no other reason than her treatment will probably be much worse if we don't talk about her. And I think- What's your perspective on that? I can't possibly offer the sort of insight he did. I mean, he lived it. And, you know, not just as someone who was held captive for all that time, but the attention he's paid to it as a journalist. It's his work is amazing. You know, what I can say is that when I talk to American officials, they say not all cases are the same.

Iran is not Russia. We were not at war with Iran. I mean, we're not at war with Russia now, but, you know, there was not an ongoing war at the time. Russia now, but there was not an ongoing war at the time. You've also got a difference of opinion in the families of the other two Americans that you mentioned, Trevor Reed and Paul Whelan. Trevor Reed's family has been more vocal. They're tired of waiting, but they've also been waiting two years. For Brittany Griner, it's just been five weeks. You know, what I'm hearing is that this is the approach for now and that there is a, you know, they want to see how she does in the criminal justice system and that there may come a point when you do need to raise more attention. And the fact is, at some point, yes, Brittany Griner's family and supporters are taking their direction from

the U.S. State Department. But at some point, those interests may diverge. I mean, the State Department, they've got the goal of trying to get all these Americans out while maintaining their foreign policy goals as it pertains to Russia, while at the same time trying not to make it clear to other governments that the best way to get something you want is to kidnap an American. Whereas Brittany Griner's family has one goal, and that's to get her out. If they're not splashing her name, you know, across the front pages of the newspaper every day or on TV talking about it or in venues like this, what other avenues are open to the U.S. government here? You know, you mentioned that they have a skeleton staff at the embassy. They're obviously preoccupied with a war. What levers can they actually try and pull to get her out? with a war, what levers can they actually try and pull to get her out?

From what I've been told, it really does come down to cutting a deal. Find out what Russia wants, negotiate, and do it to get her out. When you talk about raising pressure in this country, you've got to ask toward what end? Is it to pressure Russia? Well, you've got the most crippling economic sanctions in history right now on that country, and that's not getting Vladimir Putin to do what other governments want. So is the pressure to get the US government to do something. That really is more the case. And that's part of what I heard Jason Rezaian talk about. To kind of seek out what it is that the Russians might want, what kind of demands that they have. I'm not saying you necessarily give in to those,

but you should at least know what they are. Are those conversations going on? I don't know. But so far, whatever discussions they've had about the other two Americans, it hasn't been enough to get them out. So there's no reason to think that there's going to be any quick resolution for Brittany Griner. You've painted, frankly, a bit of a grim picture here. You know, how hopeful are you that she'll see the light of day anytime soon? Well, the people I've spoken to around her, you know, they speak hopefully, but they know the reality. And the reality is that, you know, whether she's in the criminal justice system, or she's being treated as a diplomatic pawn, it's not good. And, you know, they're going to hope as long as they can, as long as they have reason to hope. But the families of Trevor Reed and

Paul Whelan can tell you that, you know, that that only carries you so far. Okay, TJ Quinn, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate your insights on this. Thanks for having me. That's all for today. I'm JP Tasker filling in for Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.