Front Burner - Afghanistan's refugee crisis: The view from Pakistan

Episode Date: September 14, 2021

As food prices rise and the currency falls in Taliban-held Afghanistan, many are fleeing to neighbouring Pakistan in search of a better life. CBC senior correspondent Susan Ormiston takes us there.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. As the Taliban cements its power, fears are propelling thousands of Afghans toward neighboring countries like Pakistan. That's my colleague Susan Ormiston reporting from Islamabad. Over the last few weeks, a lot of our attention has been on the tens of thousands of people who were evacuated by air.

The chaotic scenes at the Kabul airport. But there's been and continues to be another exodus happening on land. The United Nations predicts up to half a million Afghans may try to flee by the end of this year, many to Pakistan, a country that Afghanistan has a long history with. Today, the view from Pakistan as a refugee crisis in Afghanistan grows. Hi, Susan. It is great to have you as always. Thank you so much for making the time. Hi, Jamie. So I know Pakistan is not where you and your team initially set out to be, right? You're trying to make your way to Afghanistan. But in many ways, Pakistan became a huge part of the story that we've seen unfold in Afghanistan as the U.S. left and the Taliban took over. And so how so? Well, in many ways, the relationship between these two

countries is complicated and storied. But the part that is so important right now for Afghans is it's the only way to get out of Afghanistan is through a land border. When the planes stopped flying, Afghans headed for the border. And only a trickle really were able to get through. And, you know, we talked to some of them who got through the Pakistan border and were in Pakistan trying to leave behind their life in Afghanistan. And tell me what they told you, you know, how did they get through? What was the journey like? Why did they leave? Well, in one case, we talked to a young man, Zakirullah was his name, he's 17. And he and

his family had traveled for three days from Afghanistan through the southern border, Spenboldak, into the Quetta area of Pakistan and then on to Islamabad. And he was ended up in this refugee camp, an old camp that was started in 2009, which really tells us a lot about the story of Afghan refugees in Pakistan. They've been coming for 20 years. And this camp is one of the few remaining camps that still is there in the city. And it's not a great place. He said he was looking for a better future, that his mother was coming for medical attention. But you looked around and you saw mud huts, you know, open sewage, no running

water, very little electricity, and 3,000 people stacked on top of each other, some of whom have been there for decades. And many of them were children who'd been born as refugees undocumented in Pakistan. Wow. I know you also met a fixer. Can you tell me about him? We work against Taliban. We went against their law. Yeah, Sahil is not his real name. He asked us to change it to protect his identity still. He worked for the foreign media for 20 years in Afghanistan. I used to do everything for the Canadian press. He reported often on the Taliban, and he's terrified.

He's absolutely terrified that they were looking for him in Kabul. He left Kabul, a very arduous journey down to Kandahar, and managed to get across the border to meet up with his family in Quetta, Pakistan. He said even there, he felt the Taliban were looking for him. They would ask his sons when they went to the market, where's your father? We know he's here somewhere. And he finally ended up in Islamabad, completely terrified that he would be killed if he were found by the Taliban in either country, Afghanistan or Pakistan. I was scared of everyone. It was like doomsday, like everybody's going to kill me. And is his plan to stay there in Pakistan?

Well, he was on, you know, one of these so-called lists. He was in contact with the Canadian government early on in this crisis, and he was one of those in limbo. There are many still in limbo now, trying to get this process going, trying to get the right visas to come to Canada, the right connections. definitely in that queue, but he was running out of money. He felt nervous. He said he couldn't sleep. When his children went to sleep, he would look around watching for whoever was watching him, and he was just desperate. It's our time. We need their help. They needed our help. We helped them. Now it's their time to help us and to take out from here as soon as possible. Susan, I know, according to the UN, about 120,000 people fled the country by air. And of course, we're all very familiar with those scenes from Kabul airport.

Do we have a sense of how many Afghans are making their way to Pakistan by land? I don't have that figure, partly because technically, Pakistan has closed its borders to Afghan refugees, meaning that those with Pakistan visas can get through legally, and those with medical necessities are also allowed. But we were at the border at Tarham near the Khyber Pass, and we saw just a trickle of people coming across. And the reason Pakistan says is, look, we have 4 million tops, undocumented and registered Afghan refugees already in this country.

They've been there for decades, and we cannot handle a flood, a surge of more. So they've very tightly controlled that border. They're also worried about people who are posing as refugees coming across and creating havoc on either side of that border, extremists or groups like that. So they've been tightly controlled. So there aren't a lot getting through that border. Now, we're seeing a different surge, and that is that countries like Canada are now actively helping people who are on their list to get to that border and get across. Of course, this is a negotiation, and Canada, I think, has reported it has already got more than 130 across in the last few weeks.

Right, right. You talked earlier about Sahil fearing the Taliban in Pakistan. When you talk to other people, other Afghans there, what did they tell you about the Taliban takeover? What were their feelings towards the Taliban? It was very interesting. We went to some neighborhoods where Afghans have settled into the fabric of Pakistan for 20 years in this case, in Rolpindi, which is a city very close to Islamabad. There was a neighborhood there called the Fauji Colony. And we spoke to many people along the shops and the streets there. And one of them stood out. He was a doctor and his son, and they ran a small medical clinic. And the son, you know, Tasla Khan Nurzad, said very bluntly that he believed the

Taliban is good for his homeland, for Afghanistan. And his father, Dr. Matula Nurzad, he got his medical degree at Kabul University, but came to Pakistan 20 years ago. And he says now he'd like to go back. And the politics are right, he said. And he tried to convince us that with the Taliban in power, it would be safer in Afghanistan, and that for women it would be better. Women are in a bad condition now, it's better. Better for women now? Yeah, now women relax, feeling relaxation.

Now? He said that his rationale was that after 20 years of insecurity and wars, a corrupt central government in his view, NATO attacks and Taliban IED threats. Women was a very difficult time. During the last 20 years it was difficult for women? During the last 20 years, very difficult. And it will be better for women now?

Yeah. How can you say that? Many women say they can't get educated, they can't have jobs. This is the picture. I want to explain picture of the Taliban. He said that the West was fixated on this black image, a black picture of the Taliban, when in reality many people would feel that it was

more stable and perhaps more hopeful for peace. And, you know, that is a perspective, one of them, unique to pro-Taliban refugees that we met and some others in the country as well. There are reports that Taliban militants in Afghanistan have fatally shot and killed a policewoman. Afghan expats are voicing alarm after the Taliban used tear gas to break up a women's rights demonstration in Kabul. This stoning and lashing is already happening. What they are saying is much different than what they are doing on the ground. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

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To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You know, I want to talk to you a little bit about Pakistan's relationship with the Taliban. So of course, they share this 2,500 almost kilometer border. They also share economic interests, military intelligence, cultural connections. Connections have been made between Pakistan's government and the Taliban in particular, of course. And what is the history of that relationship? Let's look at the current day. I mean, just days after the Taliban took Kabul, the capital, Pakistan's prime minister said that Afghans had broken the shackles of slavery. That's a quote.

And there were some ministers in the Pakistan government tweeting congratulatory messages. Now, they've now got refined that message because that really swiveled a lot of heads in the West. And they're talking about peace in the region, working on common interests like protecting their border and controlling any terrorist elements that might be threatening either country and humanitarian aid. And so for a little perspective, I spoke to a special assistant to the Prime Minister, Raouf Hassan, who told us that indeed, peace is their priority. Pakistan is committed to forging peace in this part of the world. That they believe the previous Afghan government was

not sympathetic to Pakistan's interests and other neighbors in the region. So they were looking forward to the Taliban government as being more Pakistan friendly. Now that's the Pakistan government's narrative now. The counter, of course, you alluded to is that long-held complaints over several decades that Pakistan has harbored the Taliban, that some of its leadership was educated in madrasas in Pakistan, and that the intelligence services helped the Taliban with money, training, and weaponry in the war with NATO. Now, the Pakistan government continues to deny that involvement publicly. That was never true.

We looked after over 4 million refugees for the last so many, so many years. And we had just a few families, Taliban families living in our country, you know. But why is it that the world prefers to just talk about those few families, not about the 4 million refugees that we still house in Pakistan? But you know, I've heard some Afghans say when Kabul fell, you know, Pakistan got what it wanted. And I had an interesting conversation again to understand this relationship better with a longtime Pakistani journalist, Haroon Rashid, who said that, interestingly, the Taliban now will have to manage the anti-Pakistan sentiment inside Afghanistan. We've seen the protests in Kabul against Pakistan. against Pakistan. And the Taliban publicly, publicly needs to put some distance between itself and Pakistan so as not to be seen as, he said, Pakistan's stooges. Now, it's an interesting

perspective, because at the same time, you know, very quickly after the Taliban took over the government, we saw the head of Pakistan's intelligence, the ISI, come to Kabul. He was one of the first guests. And there's a picture of him with a cup of tea in the Serena Hotel, basically saying everything is under control. So sending one message, I guess, back to Pakistan that strategically, the future with the Taliban government would look better than the previous one. But there are big concerns. Yeah, I mean, you've got to think here, there's a huge power vacuum now that the Americans have left. And does it seem fair to say that Pakistan could step in to fill that void?

Well, I think it's fair to say that Pakistan is certainly looking at strategic interests now with this change of government. So are other countries. China is as well, importantly. I mean, Pakistan and China already are stepping up with humanitarian aid, you know, pouring into the country. And China is already looking at economic interests. I mean, they're looking at, you know, a trillion dollars in untapped mineral wealth in that country. And interestingly, the spokesperson for the Taliban said recently that, quote, China is our most important partner and represents a fundamental and extraordinary opportunity because it's ready to invest and rebuild our country.

So that was a pretty powerful statement about China's potential role in a new Afghanistan. China, though, is going to want to be assured of stability. And I don't think anyone can predict yet whether the Taliban will be able to control its many factions and all the other interests in Afghanistan to be able to provide stability in the next three to six months. Back to what's happening on the ground at the border right now. You talked about how the Afghans that are getting to the border right now, it's only those with paperwork or medical issues that are allowed through. And I know the government has said it doesn't have the capacity to take on more refugees. So for Afghans who want to leave the country, what options do they have right now? Not a lot.

We still haven't seen regular international flights in and out of Kabul airport. And the Taliban has promised that Afghans with paperwork who can leave will be able to. So that will be tested in the next few weeks. By road, it's more difficult because those borders remain closed, and it's very hard to get through unless you have the visa or you have an entree from an international country. And that leaves the 39 million others in Afghanistan who are not leaving. They're staying.

And the real fear here, and it was interesting, everyone I spoke to would agree on one thing in a region where no one agrees on anything, and that was that the economic challenge for the Taliban was the biggest currently facing them right now because, of course, funds overseas have been frozen and already 80% of the country's budget was covered by international funds before

this happened. And that money is currently frozen. So while humanitarian aid is being marshaled, but you know, who's getting paid? And how? That's a huge question. People are lining up at ATMs to get money out $200 a a day, if they can get it out. And many have said that they haven't been paid in weeks or months. It's so awful and such a reminder that even as this issue fades from the headlines, the situation in Afghanistan is incredibly, incredibly dire right now. Yeah, I mean, we've just described the people who are staying. They're living their

lives. They're trying to invest their future there. It's difficult. It's very uncertain still what's going to happen. And then there are those who are still trying to get out. I mean, anyone who's worked on this crisis for the last number of months as we have, anyone involved is getting the same response in that people find out you've reported on it or you've been in the region and reach out to you. Many reporters have said the same thing. I'm sure government members have as well. People are still trying to find a way out. I mean, just personally, I've had groups of 100 in Pakistan, you know, a family in Afghanistan, several people reaching out even daily saying, please help, please figure out how we can get out of here. And I think one of the

things that really worries everyone is if the country cannot meet its economic commitments, that the instability is going to increase, and people are going to get even more desperate economically, and winter is coming. It's a very uncertain time. All right. Susan, thank you so much for this. Really appreciate it. You're welcome. All right.

So on Monday, the United Nations hosted a conference to help raise emergency funds for Afghans in need, more than 600 million U.S. dollars to keep aid programs in place. Afghans in need more than 600 million U.S. dollars to keep aid programs in place. There are worries that Afghanistan could soon plunge into famine and economic collapse. U.N. Secretary General Antonio Guterres said one in three Afghans don't know where their next meal will come from and that the poverty rate is, quote, spiraling. At the conference, the United States pledged an additional 64 million U.S. dollars in humanitarian aid, Denmark an extra 38 million, and Norway is freeing up 11.5 million to respond immediately, just to name a few. That is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson.

Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.