Front Burner - After chaotic US withdrawal, a view from Kabul

Episode Date: August 31, 2021

After 20 years, the last U.S. troops have left Afghanistan. Ali M. Latifi, a correspondent for Al Jazeera English, brings us a view from the ground in Kabul.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. After 20 years and weeks of chaos and violence, the last U.S. troops left Afghanistan on Monday afternoon. Tens of thousands of Afghans have been evacuated from the country.

Many more are still desperately trying to leave. And for those that remain, the future is hugely uncertain. Today, a view from the ground in Kabul. I spoke to Ali M. Latifi, an Afghan journalist who is a Kabul correspondent for Al Jazeera English, shortly before the final American military flight left the Kabul airport. Hi, Ali. Thank you so much for making the time to speak with me today. We're incredibly appreciative. Thank you for having me. So on Sunday, a U.S. drone strike blew up a vehicle in Kabul that, according to American officials, destroyed a suspected ISIS-K car bomb, which they say posed an imminent threat to Kabul's airport. The U.S. military says a drone strike today destroyed a vehicle carrying members of the Islamic State affiliate in Afghanistan who were about to attack the airport in Kabul.

A U.S. official says the vehicle targeted contained at least one suicide bomber. The U.S. military says secondary explosions from the vehicle may have caused civilian casualties. I know that you have spoken to eyewitnesses who say 10 civilians were killed, all members of the same extended family. And firstly, what do we know about these 10 victims and who they were? They were, you know, one was a 40-year-old engineer who had helped foreign forces in the past. Another was in the Afghan military. He had last served in the southern province of Kandahar.

The others were either teenagers or children. One may have been as old as 20, but for the most part, they were all teenagers and children. Wow. What did eyewitnesses and relatives tell you the family was doing right before the attack? So the patriarch of the family, Ingenier Zmaray, he had just come home from work and he wanted his sons to practice basically driving and parking the car. So he went into the bathroom to make ablutions for the prayer. And so one of the sons took the car, brought it inside, and a bunch of the kids all hopped in the car and went for a short little ride with their cousins. And essentially just about when the car stopped,

when it was about to park, is when the airstrike took place. Literally, the car was full of children, children and teenagers. You know, they had received word that they would be evacuated soon from Afghanistan. And they were essentially just waiting for the phone call that the car would come to their house and take them to the airport. So all of the members of the extended family, over the last few days, they all moved into that one house together and they were essentially just packing up their lives. Mm-hmm.

You know, you mentioned they were trying to evacuate. Do you know where they were trying to evacuate. Do you know where they were trying to evacuate to? I believe it was the United States. Okay. There are probably going to be some very difficult details here, so I'll just note that for our listeners. But what did people tell you about what they saw the scene the aftermath of the attack you know there was fire everywhere um there was remnants of blood all over the walls

you know they said like we had to collect pieces of human flesh and and and put it together to figure out you know like there were body parts and they didn't necessarily know how much belonged to who. One of the boys, they said the only thing we found of him was his legs. Wow, this is horrifying. So the U.S. has said that they believe that they hit a legitimate target, an explosive-laden vehicle, and that they're investigating reports of civilian casualties.

But I just want to be clear, the vehicle that these young people and children were in is not the vehicle that the United States hit. They were just nearby, correct? I mean, that's the question that the family has, because they were saying that if it was full, first of all, like, why would a man, you know, put his children in a car full of explosives? Oh, so the eyewitnesses are saying that this car is the car that was targeted in the airstrike. Wow. Just to be clear here, the family is saying that they don't believe there was any suicide bomb or any car bomb. No, of course not. No, no. There at all? No, because they were like, why would you park that in your house full of your children? And also they said, okay, if there was

a bomb in the car, then the house would have been destroyed. The neighbor's houses would have been destroyed. There was a lot of damage, but the structure was still pretty much sound. sound. How, you know, you have traveled around Afghanistan for many years as a journalist, and how familiar to you was what you saw and heard at the home today, at the home of this family? Completely familiar. Completely familiar. But what was shocking about it was that this took place in the city of Kabul, you know. I got there this morning around like 9 maybe and there was all these people standing outside and they were so like one of them came up to me and he got mad he's like what's wrong with your journalists and he said because you came here you saw what happened and you still

said that they were terrorists initially after the bombing you know people were saying that they were terrorists i guess for lack of better word the one positive point of of this was that it took place in the middle of the city of kabul So all of these journalists and all these media outlets could come and see for themselves. So often when these things happen, it happens in villages in the night. So many provinces have been plagued by these airstrikes and these drone strikes for the last 20 years, by these airstrikes and these drone strikes for the last 20 years, but they happen overnight in a remote part of a province that a lot of people can't go to. And so by the time, even if journalists or rights workers

or any kind of investigators went, by the time they could actually safely get to that area, whoever was responsible could have easily hidden the evidence. Okay, so this was the U.S.'s second airstrike on suspected members of the local ISIS affiliate, ISIS-K. Since that group claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing last Thursday on the airport. The group claimed last week's suicide bombing outside the airport gates that killed more than a dozen U.S. soldiers and nearly 200 Afghans. more than a dozen U.S. soldiers and nearly 200 Afghans. I wonder, regardless of what happened with this most recent drone attack,

because clearly there are a lot of really important questions here, but I wonder if you could briefly, for people who may have never heard of ISIS-K before this attack. Tell us what kind of relationship they have with the Taliban and who this group is. They hate the Taliban. They've always fought each other off. They're a group that first started to appear in Afghanistan around 2014-15. And they've been responsible for some of the most deadly bloody attacks in the country. It is considered the most extreme and violent of all the militant groups in Afghanistan, targeting girls' schools, hospitals, and a maternity ward. It has major differences with the Taliban, accusing it of abandoning armed struggle in favor of negotiated peace deals with Washington.

There's very little known about who's in charge, how they make decisions, what they do, what their ultimate goal is. And if there were ever to be some kind of an overture to them, no one is entirely sure who you would go to to even try and make that happen. who you would go to to even try and make that happen. Okay, so obviously the Afghans living there right now, they're dealing with these drone attacks, they're dealing with this very unknown entity or little known entity, ISIS-K, and then, as you mentioned, the Taliban. And I wonder if you could elaborate for me

on what the Taliban is right now. You know, Taliban spokespeople have said numerous times that they're not the Taliban of 20 years ago, right? And that this new government will respect human rights and women's rights and press freedom. The Taliban's longtime spokesman says women's rights will be protected within Islamic Sharia law. says women's rights will be protected within Islamic Sharia law. There will be no violence against women, no discrimination against women, of course, based within the framework of the Islamic law.

He said a number of times that the new government is going to be strong, inclusive and Islamic. What indications on the ground have you seen so far about whether that's likely to be the case? Well, the one thing about what you see on the ground is the only thing you can say with certainty is what you see yourself. But on the one hand, they put out a very good public face. When you see them on the street, 99% of the time, they don't say anything to you. You know, if you stop and make conversation with them, they'll have a conversation with you. They'll talk to you. You know, if you wave at them, they'll wave back and they'll try and reassure you that, you know, we're here for your safety and we're here to help you. But then you start to see the cracks and just things that I've witnessed with my own eyes. For instance,

I went to see a bunch of them and a friend of mine a week ago, like he saw that I was wearing traditional clothes, the piranthamban, and he was joking with them in Pashto like, oh, Ali almost never dresses like this. And they're like, oh, he can dress however he wants, you know, like, he doesn't have to, you know, change the way he dresses. And there were like two or three days where I was, you know, wearing, you know, like jeans and a t-shirt and just walking around. And last week, I was walking to work. and then I see these three talibs crossing the street and but one keeps giving me dirty looks and I was like uh-oh and then he comes up to me and he says something like what are you wearing your clothes aren't appropriate and I was like okay and I was

like that's all it was it was you know you know, it was just him, like, trying to show himself, you know? But I imagine for you, it's probably a small example of, you know, some worries that you think might be coming, right? That this could get much worse. And I understand, too, that you interviewed a journalist who was essentially beaten up, right, in the middle of Kabul. Exactly, exactly. So that's what I was saying is like, that's just like a small,

that's just a small example. And then I, exactly as you said, I interviewed a journalist. He was in front of this mosque, in front of this masjid where all the, basically all of the day laborers sort of wait for work. And he started talking to them and then a white armored Land Cruiser stops,

gets out, and they just essentially start beating him and his cameraman and taking their equipment. So that's another example, because on the one hand, you know, they say, oh, you should operate freely and you can report whatever you want and don't worry and you shouldn't have any fears. And then yet here's this guy doing the simplest kind of interview that we've all done you know that it's like the most basic form of journalism you know right you're starting to see different things happening on the ground yeah like so it's been about a week that the banks have reopened and on the first day the banks reopened there was just madness there was all these people waiting outside and one of the banks they broke the glass leading to the corridor that

like takes you inside the bank and so on Sunday we went back to the banks and now the Taliban are posted outside and you know the commanders came and spoke to us and said yes you can film anything and don't worry and things are great and we're taking responsibility and we're making sure that nobody gets harassed and like they would let women just walk right into the bank say like yes auntie go go go um and then the men would have to line up outside but then as soon as the crowd started to get unruly so did the tal. You saw them shooting into the air. You saw them taking switches and hitting people. And then they were also like pelting like pebbles and stones at people who were being unruly.

And it was so funny because they got us, the commander got us to film him. And, you know, only like 20 23 not even 20 meters uh behind him the crowd was getting unruly and the taliban were like starting to like hit them and like you know get aggressive and they wouldn't let us film that you know it's very much like don't pay attention behind the curtain In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I think it's probably really hard to gauge this

because obviously there are no public opinion polls in Afghanistan right now. But like, what sense do you have right now of how much support and legitimacy the Taliban has among just ordinary Afghans? I think as much as they probably had more in the past, and I think in the last year or so, they've lost a lot of it. How come? Well, for one, they made a peace with the U.S. and never really engaged with the government of Afghanistan. And then also, you know, over the last couple months, when they first started to just take districts, you know, one after another, there were a lot of reports from those districts that they were going around house to house looking for people and killing them or that they were laying IEDs on the roads or that they were shooting at people. All of this and then also

the fact that they have no financial resources at their disposal right now. You know, the IMF had promised certain, it was like a few hundred million dollars money. They canceled that as soon as the Taliban took over. The World Bank did the same. There's something like $9 billion of Afghan assets in the Federal Reserve in the United States. They cut off access to that. Western Union ended their operation here. So there's no money coming in.

Ali, what are people most worried about right now? What are you hearing from people? What is their biggest concern? Two things. One, societally overall, is that the Taliban will essentially either return to their ways of the 1990s or somehow end up even worse than that. And two, you know, personally for people, their biggest fear is poverty. I live above two banks. They've been closed for more than two weeks now. Today I needed to get money to fix something in the house and all of the ATMs I went to were off. And so I had to tell the repair guy I can only pay you half now. I'll go like scouring the city the next couple of days and try and find an ATM to take more money out. A lot of private offices are closing shop.

And then the public offices, the government facilities and offices, a lot of those aren't operational yet. And even if they are, for instance, one of my cousins, he works for the Ministry of Finance and the Customs, and they called him back to work and they said, you can come and you can work, but we can only afford to pay you $4,000 of monies a month, which is $44. He has seven people in his family, including an ailing mother, a sick mother. You know, what is he going to do with $44? I mean, I myself, if I don't find an ATM soon, I'm not going to have any more money. You painted this picture today of a people stuck in the middle of all these forces, right, that are so beyond their control.

The U.S., who, you know, arguably not just caused this chaos by their withdrawal, but also these drone strikes. The Taliban, ISIS-K. And we know, of course, that being stuck in between big foreign and internal forces is nothing new to Afghans. And so I'm wondering on this day where the United States is pulling out, what are you feeling? Me personally?

Angry, frustrated, scared. frustrated, scared. It makes you angry that, you know, so much was squandered both by the Westerners and by the, you know, Afghan governments of the last 20 years. You know, I mean, so much money came in, but so much of it was pilfered and spent in corruption, basically. You know, it enriched a very small group of people and kept these Western NGOs funded and, you know, making all this money and, you know, getting danger pay and, you know, basically literally banking on Afghanistan, you know. But what it kept was it kept people from having clinics and hospitals. And so that's

the anger. And the frustration is that we're essentially right back where we started from, you know, is the U.S. conducting airstrikes and killing civilians, you know, is exactly how the war started. Again, the Taliban are back in power. And now instead of those airstrikes targeting the Taliban, they're targeting these so-called Islamic State forces. And then you're obviously scared because, I mean, I don't know when I will finally cross that line. Maybe one day I will wear the wrong clothes and the next Taliban will beat me or throw me in jail or shoot me. I don't know. Or maybe the restrictions on the media will become so overbearing that I won't be able to do my job anymore and there won't be a real purpose for me being here. I'm really sorry to hear you

struggling with all this, Ali. I mean, yeah, but it's, I mean, like, I'm privileged. I can leave tomorrow, you know, as long as the airport is open and I have a credit card, I can leave tomorrow. But war forced me out when I was little, you know, forced my family out. But I don't want it, I don't want a corrupt government, you know, the last corrupt government, and I don't want these Taliban, you know, who only a few weeks ago were suicide bombers, to be the ones to force me out. Ali, thank you so much for this, and I really hope that you stay safe over there.

Oh, you're welcome. All right, that is all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.