Front Burner - Alberta premier under scrutiny over leaked phone call

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

A leaked phone conversation between Alberta Premier Danielle Smith and a pastor facing pandemic-related charges is raising questions about potential political interference. During the call, Smith tells the pastor she will discuss his case with justice officials. Smith has continuously denied that she or her office engaged in any inappropriate conduct regarding COVID prosecutions. Today, the CBC’s Jason Markusoff joins the show to talk about the leaked call, and the political implications in the leadup to a closely contested Alberta election. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts Editor’s Note: This segment follows a Jan. 19, 2023 story that has been updated. As detailed in the Editor’s Note accompanying that story, while Crown prosecutors felt political pressure, CBC could not substantiate the content of emails referenced here or confirm their existence. Read the full note here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-premier-office-emails-prosecutors-coutts-1.6719743

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. There's yet another political firestorm brewing in Alberta. This one centered around Premier Daniel Smith and the release of a leaked phone call between her

and a controversial street preacher facing pandemic-related criminal charges. This is the thing I find very frustrating is that they were, it was a political decision that initiated this, but it can't be a political decision to end it. That's what I'm finding very frustrating about the whole thing. Smith's opponents are accusing her of judicial interference. She denies that she or anyone in her office engaged in any inappropriate conduct regarding COVID prosecutions. Meanwhile, Smith is set to face the province's voters for the first time since replacing Jason Kenney in less than two months now. My colleague in Calgary, Jason Markosoff, is with us to talk about the leaked call and the political implications in the lead up to this hotly contested Alberta election.

Jason, hey, it's been a while. It's so good to have you back. Hello again, Jamie. Hello. So before we get into the call at the center of this controversy, let's go back to Daniel Smith's campaign and the early days of her premiership, because she pledged to do some things that will become really quite relevant to the story, right? So let's remember why it was one of the main reasons for Jason Kenney being ousted by United Conservative members. And a lot of them were really ticked off at his COVID restrictions. Not that they were too lean, but that they were too hard, that it was a huge affront to civil liberties. So that was one of the animating factors in UCP members pushing him out.

Enter Danielle Smith. She comes in as a champion of those individuals that were offended by COVID restrictions, by those who face charges, like some small businesses, some small restaurants, some churches, who firmly defied the COVID rules and were actually given public health charges or face other provincial offenses for violating them. And during the campaign, in fact, on the first day of her campaign, she said she would grant them amnesty. We never used to have pastors fearing that they were going to be arrested. We never had business owners fearing that they were going to be arrested.

So we made bad political decisions that I think were over-enforced. And I think it's completely legitimate to offer amnesty when the government has clearly made a mistake. We shouldn't have been. And go on an apology tour, apologizing to everybody who was impacted or affected by COVID restrictions. I think there's a lot of people feeling that no one's taken any accountability for the harms that have been caused, whether it's pastors who were put in prison or whether it was businesses that were shut down or those people who lost their jobs or whether it's families that got torn apart. And so I'm prepared to go around the province and apologize on behalf of the government and

to try to find a way that we can make some amends. And that even though at the time it was very confusing because amnesty is not a thing that we hear premiers granting. This was something that she was promising. And that promise served her very well politically in helping her win the leadership race. Right. And so she wins leadership race. She becomes premier. And then in January of this year, she gets a call from someone who probably was hoping that she would make good on those pledges to grant amnesty to help people who got COVID-related charges. And who is that person?

That's right. His name is Artur Polowski. He is a pastor at a small church. He's also best known as a street preacher in Calgary. We have been robbed, attacked, hurt, and enslaved by the very people that swore to take care of us. The time has come for the Justin Trudeaus, Jason Kenney's, Johns Horgan's, Heather Stephananson's, Hedon's Horgans, Hedon's Stephanonsons, Dagfords, and the rest of the pile of snakes, vipers and scorpions, to resign. You know, basically he would set up a barbecue, cook some hot dogs for mostly homeless people,

and proselytize sometimes with a megaphone, or quite loudly, to tell them the gospel. I guess it was. I'm Jewish. I don't know these things too granularly. Yeah, the gospel sounds about right. Yeah. All right. Learn something every day.

But he has had many run-ins with the police over the years, including in the last few years. He was one of the individuals who was accused of holding church services in defiance of COVID rules, not masking, no social distancing, no capacity limits. He was charged for that. Those charges were stayed. But the charges he was facing in January when he spoke to Premier Daniel Smith were something quite different. He was down at the Coutts blockade, giving a speech to the protesters down there at the Montana border, kind of the second biggest convoy protest after Ottawa.

There's a price attached to freedom. How do you think the first war ended? Millions had to die. And that's the price that we have to be willing to pay if our children are going to have a free and democratic society. This is our time. And if this is our Alamo, so be it. And what he said was so fiery that he was charged with criminal mischief after that speech, and with violating this provincial law that Jason Kenney incidentally had put in, the Criminal Infrastructure Defense Act. So he was facing two charges in February when this third party, actually this guy who was running at the time a separatist organization, an Alberta separatist organization, set up

this phone call between this Pawlowski fellow and Premier Daniel Smith. It's been a nice talk with you. I'm not sure if we've ever had a chance to talk before, but I've been watching your public advocacy for many years, so it's nice to connect with you. An unusual trio of people to come together on a phone call, but unusual is the watchword for Alberta politics these days. Okay, so this phone call was leaked, obviously, this is why we're having this conversation. And what was discussed on the call that is now causing such a firestorm in Alberta? So one of the other interesting things about this whole

thing is that he at the time, up until recently, was actually the leader of an opposition party, a small fringe rival party. And he was telling her in this call, I am still on house arrest facing 10 and a half years of imprisonment for my speech in Coutts. And of course, that's very concerning to me because I came to a conclusion that I don't think I have an option except to start swinging your way because of the promises that were never fulfilled. And what they, what they mean by promising is squashing the charges that he had faced. That Polofsky had faced. That Polofsky had faced, that he was pro-amnesty.

And he and others had listened to her very carefully talking about amnesty. Danielle Smith says she has learned, to her great disappointment, that she cannot grant amnesty. She thought that she had that power like U.S. presidents or U.S. governors. But she learned after becoming premier that she can't. It's unfortunate that I didn't understand the limitations. I thought we probably had the same power of clemency that they did in the U.S. But she said she is going to ask what she can ask of justice officials.

Once the process is underway, I can ask our prosecutors, is there a reasonable likelihood of conviction? And is it in the public interest? And I assure you, I have asked them that almost weekly, ever since I got started here. She said she has been critical. She has expressed dissatisfaction with some of their tactics, like how they release documents that causes headaches for defendants. She said that she was dissatisfied with some of their tactics, like how they release documents that causes headaches for defendants.

She said that she was dissatisfied with some of their tactics and has expressed that to them. I think the issue is that once the ball is rolling, these Crown prosecutors seem to be very independent and we can only ask the two questions as I mentioned of you. So I doubt very much that this is being driven by the minister. And she expressed sympathy for him. She did say that she cannot grant amnesty. What she's allowed to do under the guidelines and rules is ask two questions of Alberta justice officials. Those are, does this case have a reasonable likelihood of conviction?

One. And two, is this case in the public interest? And she says she has asked those questions on an almost weekly basis. We've had these conventions in our system, so I am trying to stay within the lines of asking them the appropriate questions. And the further we get away from the original decisions, the harder it is, in my opinion, to make the case that this is in the public interest or that there's a reasonable likelihood of conviction. So tell me what the big deal is with this call. What has many people kind of raising eyebrows here? There are a few things. There one is he's a fringe political figure.

He's a very controversial figure. If you know Art Palowski's name in Calgary, odds are you know it because of some of the controversies or legal messes he's gotten into. So the idea of associating with somebody like that is one thing. The idea of associating with somebody who is facing criminal trial

and you are premier talking to him, there's a whole question about the appropriateness of that. And then there is the question, and it's a surprisingly familiar one, the last decade or so in Canadian politics, of judicial interference, politicians meddling with the process of the justice system. There are not necessarily clear lines about what amounts to political interference or judicial interference. As we discuss in these cases, there are often gray lines. But one of the things that has really drawn people's concern in this is how she talks about it, how she was talking about this in January, where she has said,

I've been talking to my prosecutors on an almost weekly basis. Even Premier Danielle Smith has acknowledged that it is not appropriate for politicians or political staff to talk directly to prosecutors about these cases. What she has since said, and she admits she used imprecise language,

is that she was actually referring to her justice minister and the deputy justice minister, the head of the justice. Not like a prosecutor. Not direct crown prosecutors who are going to be going to court and prosecuting. Does that make a difference when we're talking about like appropriateness here? Danielle Smith herself has acknowledged that talking to prosecutors would be crossing the line. A politician will speak to the head of the Alberta Justice Department and the justice minister on a regular basis. Where things get gray is whether it is appropriate to ask the same question to the same individuals on a continuing basis when the answer notionally shouldn't change and the individual is the premier, overseeing the Justice Department,

overseeing the justice system, overseeing the budgeting system and so much else that affects the administration of justice. So there are a lot of gray lines there. There's a lot of justice. So there are a lot of gray lines there. There's a lot of controversy. The political opposition, the NDP, are certainly very, very frustrated with this and trying to aggressively pursue this, demanding a judicial review, an independent investigation,

making complaints to the ethics commissioner. This has far-reaching consequences. Albertans deserve transparency. They deserve accountability. Danielle Smith has to come clean. She has to appoint an independent judicial investigation to clear the air for Albertans before the next election. You know, and certainly in the world of experts,

there's a lot of question of whether this crosses lines as well. Yeah, I just want to be clear here. This isn't the first time, this story isn't the first time that Smith has encountered countercriticisms or scrutiny about her interactions around COVID prosecutions, right? Just for people who might not have been following Alberta politics very closely in the last couple months. That's correct. This is not an island of a story, as it were. As I've said, she was talking about amnesty during the UCP leadership.

I'm getting some legal advice on who we might be able to issue pardons for, but the things that come to top of mind for me are people who got arrested as pastors, people who got arrested for not, or given fines for not wearing masks. These are not things that are normal to get fines and get prosecuted for. So I'm going to look into the range of outstanding fines that there still are,

and to get some legal advice on which ones we're able to cancel and provide amnesty for. She later said that she could not provide amnesty. And then in January, the CBC did report that the Premier's Office staff, somebody in the Premier's Office had contacted the Crown Prosecution Service to ask particular questions about a particular case related to the Coutts blockade. And there were concerns about the appropriateness of that. Further to that, there was another story that my colleagues, Lise von Scheele, Janet French, and Megan Grant had written about the levels of

pressure and the inappropriateness that people within the government found that the premier and her staff were applying to on these cases. So this concern did not come out of nowhere. on these cases. So this concern did not come out of nowhere. What is striking about the Pawlowski tape is that you can hear her in real time discussing this with somebody who's about to face trial on criminal charges. And one other thing I should make the distinction,

because I think this is important and it sometimes gets lost in all this process, is that Danielle Smith has been critical of COVID charges, masking rules, vaccination mandates, social distancing, has found those unfair. The charges that Polowski was facing in a trial shortly after this phone call had nothing to do with those. Because I don't think Danielle Smith has squabbles with the idea of criminal mischief or the idea of the Criminal Infrastructure Defense Act, basically this law that Jason Kenney put in place that levies penalties against you if you, in protest, obstruct critical piece of infrastructure for the economy like pipelines, borders, railway, highways. railway, highways. Danielle Smith, through nothing we've heard, is actually critical of any of those policies. And yet, here she is expressing sympathy.

Yeah, that's an interesting distinction to hear. I feel like it's probably a good time. I just want to note here, since we're talking about the current reporting on this and previous reporting on the story that Danielle Smith has consistently denied that she or her office engaged in any inappropriate conduct regarding COVID prosecutions. And she is now threatening legal action against the CBC. She wants the CBC to apologize for and to retract its reporting. the CBC says. It stands by. It's reporting. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem.

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The NDP is very much on top of this. They're calling for a review, an independent review. But what's the reaction to this story more generally in the province been like? It's become a major topic of discussion. Of course, we have the election coming up in less than two months now on May 29th. So we're about to head into an election campaign. As you said, the NDP is trying to hit this in various ways. There are some people who sometimes question if this has compromised some of these trials, some of these ongoing criminal or crown prosecutions.

Some of these trials, some of these ongoing criminal or crown prosecutions, no, none of these have been stayed or had any seeming impact at this point. But the risk hangs in the air in a couple of ways. One, that there are some implications for the justice system or that more will come out, that there will be more evidence, more allegations. The CBC and certainly other journalists in this province continue to report and look into these matters. And, you know, there's still Daniel Smith. This is an issue that has really animated Daniel Smith. We know that. This is an issue that is near and dear to her heart.

And there are those out there to whom she had talked about granting amnesty or fighting for them. And there are those out there who want to see her deliver on those, as Art Polosky's call clearly states. Yeah. And just correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is that this election is tight, right? Like the polls are super tight right now. And how do you think Smith feels about this issue kind of coming back up in the media? Is it good? Is it bad? I think that's really my question. There's a base within the party that is still animated by COVID issues, is still furious about it, you know, wants to never go back.

COVID issues, is still furious about it, you know, wants to never go back and likes the Danielle Smith promises never to lock down and never to apply restrictions again and are rooting for her to do what she can to basically see the end of these prosecutions, thinks that there's political prisoners out there. There is that group, but that is not the majority of the province. The majority of Alberta, polls have repeatedly shown, supported vaccine rules like vaccine passports, supported social distancing, did not support the convoy in Kootz or Ottawa. So these are not majority issues that she has appealed to. And the party does not intend to run its campaign on those issues. They are looking to economy, affordability, crime, healthcare, education, kind of your bread and butter basic mainstream broadly appealing issues. The NDP will try to

make this stick to her. And I think, you know, as I watch more politics, I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that this issue probably won't have profound impact on the election because no single issue has such profound impact on the election. We saw that Justin Trudeau certainly survived the SNC-Lavalin saga from a couple years ago. But what happens with controversies like this is it accumulates. It adds to what people's perception may be of Danielle Smith, that she would be on the phone one-on-one giving minutes of a premier's busy schedule to talk to this quite controversial, notorious street preacher figure, Art Palowski, who is facing criminal trial, that she will do the utmost she can within the laws, the rules as she understands them, to ask questions of justice officials. So those sort of things, those sort of perceptions, those pieces of data will accumulate and help form people's perception of the leadership that Danielle Smith brings forth. All right, Jason, always such a pleasure.

I have a feeling we're going to be talking to you again pretty soon as this election kind of gets up and running. Thanks a lot. Always enjoy Alberta Splaining. All right. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening.

Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.