Front Burner - Andrew Scheer out amidst private school payment controversy

Episode Date: December 13, 2019

Andrew Scheer is stepping down as leader of the federal Conservative party amidst a controversy over his use of party funds to send his kids to private school and growing criticisms over his election performance. Today, Jayme Poisson speaks with Power & Politics host Vassy Kapelos for insight on Scheer’s resignation and to find out what, and who, could be next for the party.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Pozzo. And as our party begins to embark on this exciting opportunity, electing a new leader, my only ask to my fellow Conservatives is this.

Let's stay united. Well, it happened. Andrew Scheer has stepped down as leader of the federal conservatives. The resignation comes less than two months after Scheer lost the federal election to Justin Trudeau's liberals. And it comes amid a growing number of conservatives clamoring for him to step aside. And it also comes alongside a report that alleges that he used party funds to pay for his kids to go to private school. The party is saying that it allowed Andrew Scheer to use some of the money to cover a price differential between the cost of educating his children in his hometown of Regina and what he had to pay here. I'm joined from Ottawa by Vashi Kapelos, host of Power and Politics.

This is FrontBurner. Hi, Vashi. Hi, Jamie. Slow news day. Oh, so slow. I don't know if it's fair to say this resignation caught a lot of people off guard. It certainly caught me off guard. What was your reaction? Yeah, I think that's totally fair to say. I think that if I'm honest with myself, I expected the resignation at some point. I didn't expect it at this point. Right, on like December 12th. Yeah, it feels oddly timed and precipitated maybe by other things other than what today that Scheer used party funds to pay for his kids to go to a private school in Ottawa. And what role do you think that this might have played? So it totally depends on who you're talking to.

If you're talking to supporters of Andrew Scheer or listening to what Andrew Scheer said of himself about why he stepped down, it was all about a decision he made where his family is concerned. He has five young kids and his wife. And he talked about wanting to spend more time with them and the sort of sacrifices they've had to make and the burden of leading the party on them as well. This party, this movement needs someone who can give 100 percent to the efforts. And after some conversations with my kids, my loved ones, I felt it was time to put my family first. Right. There was one source that the CBC quoted, our colleagues from the Ottawa Bureau, that said that Scheer talked about like a late night conversation he had with his oldest son and sort of felt like he didn't know his son well enough. And that was one of the reasons

why he decided to step down. He's all arms and legs and I think he's going to be taller than me very soon. Yeah, so that's what that camp is saying. Then you have a different camp comprised of people who are not necessarily Andrew Scheer supporters, but who are Conservative Party supporters, who are saying that there was a deal struck, and it's not it's actually not being denied by the Conservative Party, but a deal struck for the Conservative Party to use party funds to pay for Andrew Scheer to send his kids to private school. The party says they made this deal. It was above board. The appropriate people knew. It's normal.

Basically, I'm paraphrasing, but it's normal for there to be top ups and money that helps party leaders out in certain ways. That is not the reaction coming from a lot of people who actually belong to the party. They're upset that the money would be used towards this, and they're upset that there was no transparency around it. And Corey Tanik, who I interviewed. Yes, I saw that. Yeah. Yeah.

So he used to work for Prime Minister Harper. Former PR guy, right? Yeah. Very, very, very well connected in the party. Kind of a big wig in the party, I guess, for lack of a better term. The party has not been forthcoming with answers around it. They've, you know, tried to have it go away. They've tried to deny it. They've tried to paper over it. And when it became very clear that a story was going to be published with these accusations, within less than 24 hours,

he resigned. Andrew Scheer's team denies that, but that's what's being reported. Okay. And instead, Andrew Scheer is saying that he's made this decision to step down because of his family. And so, of course, can I ask you this question? You know, generally, this deal that the Conservative Party says that they struck, like, is this an appropriate use of funds? Do we know if anything like this has ever happened before? You know, I know Corey Tanik certainly told you he thought it was inappropriate many times during that interview. There are people who are giving their money to the party so it can be used in election campaigns to defeat the liberals and to form a conservative government.

They're not giving that money so it can subsidize the lifestyle of a party leader and especially not in a secret, non-transparent way. But he's also, as you also asked him, he's also not a huge supporter of Andrew Scheer, hasn't been recently. So what are other people saying? So my phone has been blowing up ever since that interview from other people in the party,

including people who used to work closely with Andrew Scheer, who are aghast at the use of this money. Like this is literally as I'm talking to you, I'm getting text messages from people who had no idea. And it seems like the deal was struck between very few people. At least that's my impression at this point. And they are aghast. So I don't know. I mean, every party governs itself differently. So I don't know if I can sort of objectively say it's inappropriate or it's not, but we can definitely relay what people, how people in the party feel. And I think that for a party that makes an issue out of ethics and for a leader who made an issue out of Justin Trudeau and, you know, the lifestyle that may

permeate a private school lifestyle and sort of, you know, characterize him as having someone with a silver spoon. Canadians who don't have family fortunes like him know that budgets don't balance themselves and that you can't make other people pay for your mistakes. You broke ethics laws twice. You interfered in an ongoing criminal court proceeding. Tell me, when did you decide that the rules don't apply to you? This is not a good look. Okay. And it doesn't bode well with party members who didn't know this is what their money was going towards. I mean, the Conservative Party raises a lot of money. They work really hard at fundraising. Yeah. I'm not sure people would be donating so that Andrew Scheer's kids could go to private school. I was actually just going to ask you about that.

Could this hurt fundraising efforts going forward? I think that's the concern from members who think this is a problem. And that's why they're worried that Andrew Scheer's staying on as leader, says he's staying on, until a new leader is chosen. My message to the Prime Minister and the the liberals in this house is this. During this leadership election, there will be no free rides in the House of Commons. And of course, we don't know how much money yet. The Conservative Party is saying it was minimal, but they're also saying it amounted to thousands

of dollars. So maybe in the coming days, we'll get a clearer picture of how much money this was and over how long, for sure. We've got this, I don't know, developing scandal. But at the same time, as you said at the beginning of this conversation, you were surprised it happened today, but not necessarily surprised that he stepped down. You know, ever since he was elected, there's been this growing chorus of conservatives calling for him to step down. And let's talk about that a little bit. So it almost started right after the election. There was almost like a 48 hour window where people thought, you know what, they did better than they did in the last election. They picked up a lot of votes.

They picked up seats. Maybe this wasn't the worst possible outcome. Right. They won Alberta and Saskatchewan. Remember we saw that sea of blue on election night out west? So that changed, though, at a pace far quicker than I would have guessed. And by that I mean that almost within two weeks of the election, the talk very quickly turned.

And I think Mr. Scheer did himself no favors in the way he handled the communications and what he said to reporters following the election. But it talk almost immediately turned to he can't stay on. And it became so public so quickly. People like Corey, but also people like Ed Fast, who said that, you know, a longtime conservative,

a former cabinet minister who said, We discussed where I could fit into the shadow cabinet, and I expressed my desire not to be included at this time. Mr. Scheer, I believe, is entitled to surround himself with a team that fully supports his leadership. Like, that's not setting things up for success. Right. In the future. That's not setting things up for success in the future. So the calls had been so great and the defense so muted of Andrew Scheer and even Andrew Scheer's defense of himself that it felt inevitable. It felt like, I don't know if he's really going to stick around till April like he says he will.

But at the same time, they kept saying, well, there's this report being done by John Baird. Former Conservative Cabinet Minister Baird will lead a thorough external review of the campaign, and he will bring a valuable independent perspective to identify exactly what we need to improve on for the next election campaign. We're looking into it. We'll wait till that's done. So I didn't really think that this decision would be made prior to that report being concluded. And that's why it's a bit of a surprise. John Baird tweeted today that his report is still ongoing. He's still talking to people, which is why I think a lot of people maybe thought Andrew Scheer was going to, I don't know, take a walk in the woods over Christmas

and maybe like try and make some decisions once this report came in. You know, other issues that people have been talking about since the election has been like these social issues. And it feels like he hasn't been able to overcome this, his positions on gay marriage and abortion. No, not at all. And I think Peter McKay described it. That was thrust onto the agenda and hung around Andrew Scheer's neck like a stinking albatross, quite frankly. It got stinkier after the campaign, which is, I think, also what almost, if I look in hindsight, cemented his future. You'll remember as much as I do, very quickly after the campaign, he did a press conference and he was asked by various reporters,

do you think gay marriage is a sin? And he could not provide the obvious answer, should it should be, which is no. We made it very clear during the election in the last few months and years, our party is inclusive. We believe in the equality of rights, the rights of all Canadians. We are, my personal opinion is that I respect the rights of every single Canadian. And he couldn't say just no. And so I think almost the way in which he handled himself after the campaign was like the nail in the coffin because those issues were so troublesome for him during the campaign. And clearly we know that from the outcome of the campaign, particularly in Ontario and Quebec.

But they were also, they ended up, that albatross just hung around his neck right through until today. Right. And I mean, talking about the abortion issue too, of course, he came out during the campaign. Finally, he was similarly having a hard time talking about that or articulating his views on abortion. Can you talk about that and reconcile how your personal faith fits with the abortion question? Well, I think it's very clear that as Prime Minister of Canada, I will govern for all Canadians. He finally came out as anti-abortion or pro-life in his words. But then after the campaign, like, for example, this report came out

where like an anti-abortion group is now saying they have 45 conservative MPs elected to Parliament. We don't know exactly what all of those 45 MPs views are like they haven't necessarily said them public, but in public, but I think that that has also deepened people's concerns or, you know, you see, you hear people talking about this more now. Yeah, I think it was it was problematic for him in two ways. I think his position was articulated more clearly, his own personal position on abortion than it was on gay marriage. And I think society views the two a little bit differently. I think obviously they wholeheartedly believe that gay marriage should be a right and they don't think that being gay is a sin. I think that's

where society writ large stands. On abortion, I think it's a little bit more nuanced. I think because of religion, different people are, I think there is a view at least among Canadians that different people are allowed to think different things. But what he wasn't really clear on was how it would affect his party and his behavior and what they do in the House of Commons. And that's, and you're right, that's, that became a problem for him. But it also became a problem for him among the conservative membership, because there are a lot of social conservatives who actually want somebody who is more socially conservative, particularly on the issue of abortion and access to abortion and and the laws of this country. And they didn't feel he went far enough. So he was annoying them, too. And in the sort of grander context of this leadership race and the leadership of the party,

that was a vulnerability for him as well. Yeah. And I want to talk to you about the future of the party in a minute, but let's talk about climate change last. That was also a big one, kind of the Conservatives and Andrew Scheer's inability to talk seriously about climate change. By exporting our clean technology, by doing things like facilitating the installation of carbon capture technology in power plants in China, we can drastically lower global emissions. And isn't that the point? It was a huge issue, again,

not just in the campaign, but thereafter. And I would highlight a lot of the comments that he made since the election, mainly when he's asked about this issue. You know, was there something wrong with your plan? Do you see how many people voted for parties that support a carbon tax? Does that change your outlook? And he and other members of his party who were tasked with sort of representing his views or parlaying them would often say, it's not about the substance. It was actually just about communication.

It's making sure that the positive aspects of that plan resonated, that we showed Canadians how Canada could actually have a greater impact on lowering emissions with our plan. So they reduced their issues in the election, especially where climate change is concerned, to just about the way in which it was communicated. They said we didn't do a good enough job of communicating our plan. When in fact, the problem could be the plan itself

and probably was. I mean, I'm not an expert, but three quarters or two thirds of the country did vote for a party that endorses a carbon tax. And we've seen an implicit recognition of that from conservative premiers across the country who were fighting it tooth and nail and who have backed off to a certain degree,

at least rhetorically, primarily rhetorically, from that fight. And so I think, especially when you look towards the future of this party, this is going to be one of the defining issues. How are they going to tackle their policy on climate change? And I think it was, again, you rightly point out, a vulnerability for him. Right. And you mentioned Ontario and Quebec before. This was certainly an issue that played into a loss of seats in both of those provinces, as we've talked about multiple times on this podcast. Very key provinces need the seats in there in order to win government. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.

Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. You know, you mentioned before that there are social conservatives that don't think he went far enough. There are people who think that he went too far. The conservatives now need to find their next leader, right? And considering this minority government situation, they'll want to do so pretty quickly. The average minority government lasts about 24 months, I think. So what's next for the party?

There's been so many disagreements about which direction it should go in. Logistically, what happens now is the National Council of the party will meet in the next couple of days, and they'll figure out a timeline for this leadership bid. That is apart from this whole controversial story, and I don't know how that plays out, but they'll figure out when they're going to elect a new leader. It's not going to be super far away, I don't think. They might wait until April when the original convention was scheduled, but I think there's an impetus or a feeling among the membership that they want to do this sooner rather than later.

So that will be the focus for the party moving forward. And then, you know, what we're all anticipating is who is going to come out and say that they want to run because that's been the unspoken kind of part of this whole story until now. Andrew Scheer, everyone was saying, oh, you've got to resign. But there was nobody coming forward and saying, I'm going to run. Peter McCaig, you know, sort of, he didn't say he wanted to run, but his name was out there. He didn't deny it. And then all of a sudden he retracted. He's like, no, I'm supporting Andrew Scheer because it didn't go over well. He also made that public comment about how Andrew Scheer basically lost an election that. Yeah, to use a good Canadian analogy, it was like having a breakaway on an

open net and missing the net. Which was, you know, quite a direct shot, pardon the pun. Which was, you know, quite a direct shot, pardon the pun. Okay, so he's a frontrunner, clearly. Maybe, yeah. We'll see who comes out of the woods now. But there's so many names being bandied about. And I'm going to say that, again, referring to my phone right now, which has a lot of text messages from people who are interested in this, the name I keep hearing over and over again is Christy Clark,

former premier of BC. Oh, very interesting. Yeah, there's a ton of interest in seeing her. We know that... Why? She is an outspoken critic of the Trudeau government. But I wouldn't argue for a second that Justin Trudeau has achieved very much, if anything at all,

productive by working with the provinces. He meets with the premiers and he basically says, look, it's my way or the highway. But a very effective communicator. I think she represents what a lot of members have been talking about recently, which is the idea that, you know, on climate, on social issues, she's pretty clear on where she stands. So if we couldn't meet our goals with the most expensive and broadest carbon tax in North America, we're going to have to figure out, we're going to be very imaginative in our strategies. And I think, I mean, she had her issues in BC. I don't want to shy away from anything like that. And I'm sure that would continue to dog her. Documents show the premier has spent more than half a million dollars on private planes in the last five years. But there's just enthusiasm. I mean, it's just the beginnings right now, but I just see a lot of enthusiasm for her as a possible

candidate. So Chrissy Clark, former premier of BC, Peter McKay, we just mentioned, and for people listening, he's a former attorney general, former minister of national defense, former minister of foreign affairs. Let's talk about some other names. I couldn't help but notice that Ronna Ambrose was trending on Twitter today. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of people that want to see Ronna Ambrose win. She was, she, or become the next leader. She was interim leader of the party before Andrew Scheer. You know, I think back to the 6 million Canadians that voted for us in 2015. When faced with defeat, we had two options. We could have retreated, waved the white flag, licked our wounds, and wallowed in excuses. But what do you think those six million people who are counting on us would think of that?

And her name has been thrown out a lot as well. I think actually Don Braid of the Carol Lee Herald was sitting down with Jason Kenney today, the Premier of Alberta, and he even said, oh yeah, she would make an amazing, I'm paraphrasing, but an amazing leader of the party, which will definitely get picked up, I'm sure. I think there's enthusiasm for people like Ronna Ambrose, like Christy Clark's women, who are clear on their positions on issues that were vulnerabilities for the party and for Andrew Scheer during the campaign. And just, you know, it's interesting, too. People are talking about Christy Clark. They're talking about Ronna Ambrose. So this would be the first woman to lead the party essentially since Kim Campbell. Yeah, yeah, that would be, I think that that would be

a big deal. Let's talk about Jason Kenney. I hear his name a lot. Is that a realistic possibility? This is the current premier of Alberta, former federal cabinet minister under Stephen Harper as well. He's like maybe the most high profile conservative in the country right now. There are a lot of people that would make the argument that he's more high profile than Scheer. There are a lot of people that would make the argument that he's more high profile than Scheer. Yeah, I would say never say never. But I would my guess would be the timing is off. He's kind of just getting into the swing of things in Alberta. And I also think on a larger scale that even the possibility of him running presents this sort of existential question for the party, which is they have this very strong and powerful base in Western Canada, in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Do they want their next leader, though, to be reflective of that? Or do they want the next leader to be able to build, not to say that Jason Kenney couldn't, but to be able to build bridges in areas where they were not able to grow the party in Ontario and in Quebec and in Eastern Canada?

Like, I think that's one of those big questions that they're going to be faced with as they pick a new leader. I feel like this is what we'll be following as we go into the new year, the conservative leadership race. Yep. Okay. You bet. Can't wait.

Vashti Capellos, thank you so much. Thanks, Jamie. Before I let you go, some news from yesterday. Quebec's very controversial ban on religious symbols, for some in positions of authority, has passed a major legal test. A group asked the province's appeal court to temporarily suspend the law until its constitutionality was decided by a separate court. Well, the appeals court decided against the suspension. The ruling was a blow to protesters of the ban who say Bill 21 is racist and especially hurtful for cultural minorities and Muslim women who wear hijabs.

Well, that's it for today. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, Ashley Mack, and Mark Apollonio. Our sound designer is Derek Vanderwyk. Our music is by Joseph Shabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of FrontBurner is Nick McKay-Blocos. And I'm your host, Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much for listening and have a wonderful weekend. See you guys on Monday. For more CBC Podcasts,

go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.