Front Burner - Anti-LGBTQ backlash spurs debate in Canada’s Muslim community

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

In June, a group called YYC Muslims organized a large protest in front of Calgary's city hall. They were there to oppose what they call "gender ideology" in schools. They chanted, “leave our kids alone” saying they don’t want it imposed on young children. They were joined by seniors wearing T-shirts with biblical verses on them, and others sporting shirts with slogans about “government tyranny.” Counter-protesters were there too, many baffled by the unlikely alliances between the different groups of people there. This protest in Calgary is just one example of Muslim parents pushing back against LGBTQ representation in schools. Today, Omar Mosleh, a Toronto Star reporter based in Edmonton, walks us through this pushback, the people behind it, and how it has spurred a challenging conversation within the wider Muslim community in Canada. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Tamara Kandaker. It was quite hectic at some points. Like I remember just a lot of people speaking into megaphones and honking and just really quite loud. This is Omar Mosley.

He's a Toronto Star reporter based in Alberta and at the end of June he was at a big protest in downtown Calgary that was blocking traffic right in front of City Hall. Police had a very strong presence and then there were some people who were shoving and pushing a lot of shouting at each other so it was a bit of a chaotic scene. The protest was organized by a group called YYC Muslims, who say they're opposed to quote-unquote gender ideology in schools. They chanted, leave our kids alone, saying they don't want it imposed on young children. There were, you know, a lot of people who, you know, identified themselves as concerned parents, but there were also people who just seemed against any kind of LGBTQ representation in public.

A lot of talk about, you know, why do I have to see rainbow crosswalks everywhere? Why do I have to see pride flags at City Hall or outside of the school? The best way I would describe it is kind of a moral panic that people were expressing. Like, I saw people shedding tears in terms of how much this issue meant to them. And yeah, I guess that's what stood out to me, just the sheer amount of passion. But the rally wasn't made up of just Muslim parents. Women in hijabs were joined by seniors

wearing t-shirts with verses from the Bible on them and others with slogans about government tyranny, an alliance that's baffled counter-protesters who were also there. Omar is on the show today to talk about these protests, how they're being discussed in the wider Muslim community in Canada, why these parents have found common cause with conservative Christians and members of the far right, and why it's also challenging to talk about.

Hi, Omar. It's great to talk to you. Hey, thanks for your interest and for having me on the show. So this protest was organized by a group called YYC Muslims, and they say that they're opposed to teaching, quote unquote, gender ideology in schools. What exactly are they referring to? The term gender ideology sounds like a made up term to me. I don't really understand what it means. And I haven't had anyone be able to really describe what it means. But it seems like they're like when I've spoken to people and asked them what their concerns are. I've had numerous people say they essentially feel like children are being indoctrinated. Like a lot of people say, you know, I'm just a concerned parent.

But then when you press them on it, they also are against seeing really any kind of LGBTQ representation in public. And in terms of like an end goal, I think they just feel like this stuff doesn't belong in schools, but also just not really in the public discourse generally. Yeah, just so I'm clear, like, is there something specific in the curriculum that they're pointing to or no? So in terms of what they're actually concerned about, it's really hard to get a clear answer on that. And that's why I've sort of come to this conclusion that it's not just about what they're teaching kids in schools, but really any kind of discussion about this publicly. The one thing that kind of came up throughout your piece was this idea of children being swayed to be gay or trans. Is that something that you heard a lot in the protests? Quite a bit, yes. The main protest organizer, Mahmoud Moura,

he would say those exact things, saying, you know, they're trying to mold your child into something that you have no control over. And that's the whole idea of this gender ideology, that you can sway a child into believing that there's something else. And we should point out here that members of the LGBTQ community and advocates completely reject the idea that a child could be swayed into changing their gender or sexual identity and that there is research that shows that there's a lotheading this. He's the founder of YYC Muslims. What else do we know about him? And what kind of rhetoric did you hear from him at this protest? So Mahmoud Moura is the founder of this YYC Muslims group, which is really just a Facebook group, as I understand it.

But Moura, he's a polarizing figure. He certainly uses some pretty extreme rhetoric, like comparing children being taught about sexual and gender diversity to children being taken from home and put into residential school. He's managed to gain a decent following from what it seems. He has received some criminal charges for hate-motivated criminal harassment, and the police wouldn't tell me specifically what that was connected to. And so, you know, he hasn't been convicted of that, but it certainly has sort of cast a shadow over this crusade he's been leading because now, ever since that happened, he's stepped away a bit because I believe he's

one of the conditions of the charges that he actually can't go to these things. And so he said, you know, I'm just this concerned parent. I have a father of five. He's a mechanic by trade. And he describes himself as a guy who's just really concerned. But it should be noted that this isn't like his first step into political activism. He's quite involved with conservative parties in Alberta and federally. He's quite involved with conservative parties in Alberta and federally.

And this seems to be what has got him the most momentum in terms of support. But it's not his first rodeo for sure. It is worth noting, Mora and YYC Muslims aren't representative of all Muslim parents who've been protesting education and celebration of gender and sexual diversity in schools. They've kind of just been leading the charge in Calgary. But they also weren't the only group at this protest. What you saw was kind of a surprising alliance that we've also seen at other demonstrations in Cal folks. So like there's the freedom convoy types. These are folks who are very active in protesting about pandemic restrictions, feeling like the government was telling them how to live their lives, encroaching on their freedoms. But the freedom convoy types are very active in this movement because they believe this is another example of how government

is controlling them. And then what I would describe as far-right individuals, Larry Heather is a good example because he's a sort of well-known far-right face in Calgary. And he's had this track record of questioning whether Mayor Nahed Nenshi was the right person to lead Calgary because of his faith. And then I also see him at this rally saying, oh, you know, I can connect more with Muslims rather than the homosexual crowd, as he calls it, because we're all of the Abrahamic religious mosaic.

So that was really interesting to me, just seeing how this individual has expressed concerns about what he believes are political pinnings behind a certain religion. And then now he's sort of put that aside and joined this cause. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. How did the Muslim protesters you talked to feel about the support that they were getting from these other groups? I wouldn't say there was a ton of, like, surprise because people generally said, well, religious folks are religious folks. And I think that would be one of my big takeaways in that I wouldn't necessarily highlight Muslims. necessarily highlight Muslims. I think whether it's conservative Christians or conservative Muslims or people of any religion who really closely sort of live by the book, I think they

would have similar concerns. So I don't think there was a ton of shock from the people involved in it. And I don't think they were necessarily reflecting on that either. They seemed really sort of caught up in the moment and caught up in what they were trying to express rather than reflect on, you know, where it's going from here. You mentioned some counter protesters to left-wing activists who were kind of dismayed to see Muslim parents coming together with these groups on this issue, right? Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. You know, I spoke to folks who said, I stood up against all forms of hate, including, you know, people protesting against Islam or Muslims. And now I'm seeing those same people, those same far right

folks standing side by side with the same people they demonized. And so there was definitely a bit of sense of frustration there, but not necessarily with the Muslim folks themselves. It was more what they feel was the far right co-opting or manipulating other people's political stance for their own benefit. There have been protests in parts of Canada over drag artists reading books to kids, reports of Muslim parents taking their kids out of school in Ottawa, Edmonton, London to protest pride events. There was also a clip that went viral in June of a small boy at an anti-pride rally in Ottawa stomping on pride flags. And he appeared to be Muslim because his mom was wearing a hijab. So why do parents say that they're doing this? Is it about their faith? say like the Yellow Vests or Wexit, where there was also a lot of talk about people's freedoms being eroded. But what made this different is that a lot of these folks come from countries where they did face real sort of oppression and persecution for their beliefs.

And like I once did a story in the pandemic about a Mennonite community in Alberta that had some of the highest or lowest vaccination rates. These Anabaptists do have faced a lot of, you know, oppression and persecution in Europe for their beliefs. And so when they come here, now they're saying, it feels like we're seeing a repeat of what we fled. And so I heard that from some of the Middle Eastern parents I spoke to, where they come from countries like Syria or Lebanon, where there is a lot of government, essentially dictating how people should live their lives. So they feel like they're now facing in Canada what they fled in the

Middle East. And you know, not all Muslims are immigrants, there's people who convert or, you know, were born here a lot, actually. But it did seem that that was sort of a recurring theme, people saying, you know, I came here for religious freedom, and now I feel like my children are being forced to learn about something that conflicts with my traditional beliefs. Okay, so coming back to this idea then of Muslim parents being co-opted by the right, there was a video that was circulating recently of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau talking to a group of Muslims at a mosque in Calgary during Stampede about this.

First of all, there is an awful lot of misinformation and disinformation. People on social media, particularly fueled by the American right wing, are spreading a lot of untruth. He says parents are being fed misinformation and disinformation by the American right wing about what's actually in provincial curriculums. about what's actually in provincial curriculums and that if you look at the curriculum, there isn't a quote unquote aggressive teaching or conversion of kids to being LGBT, that this is something being weaponized by people who are not doing it because of their interest in supporting the Muslim community. So what have you heard from Muslim parents about this idea that they're being misled by right-wing media and that they're being weaponized? I didn't really discuss that at length with a lot of people at the protest.

But I did speak with, for example, Sam Namura, who is a podcaster, sort of YouTuber. He's not really like closely tied to any political party. He seems like a pretty pragmatic guy. He was of the position that he feels Muslims are being co-opted and this cause was being manipulated by far right individuals, groups, media to essentially further a political agenda. And his concern was that how this is going to reflect on Muslim Canadians and how he feels it gives ammunition to the far right who argues that Muslims are trying to change your culture, they want to change Canada, they want to change your laws, they want to change your education systems. And so he certainly had that concern. So one of the few Canadian organizations that I saw made a clear and public statement on their position on these issues was a group called the a whole bunch of Islamic organizations and Muslim individuals,

including religious leaders, who stated that Islam unequivocally condemns same-sex marriage and gender transitioning for reasons of gender dysphoria, and that any Muslim parent who expresses that they feel what's being taught in schools interferes with their religious freedom shouldn't be condemned as discriminatory or hateful. The last time I remember Muslim parents mobilizing in this way was back in 2015 to protest the changes to the sex ed curriculum in Ontario. Is there something that's happened recently that's triggered these protests? I'm just wondering why this has escalated in this way in recent months. Well, this is all speculation, but I think there's a few different factors. I do think the pandemic,

one, just made people more angry, but it also gave people a feeling that the government is this tyrannical force that wants to control your life. And I feel like there's this kind of hangover effect from that, in that people were opposed to pandemic restrictions, they still haven't got over it, and now they see teaching about sexual or gender diversity in schools as another way as how the government is forcing them or controlling how they should live their lives. Like, I've had people explain to me it's just too much in terms of what they're seeing in schools or in public places. And it seems like they really feel like it's just too much for them too quickly. And I think that just that social change and that societal change has been for some people overwhelming. And I think particularly with religious minorities, they have felt taken for granted by the Liberal Party in

Canada, especially. And then we've seen that, you know, the Conservative Party of Canada has done a lot of outreach in ethnic communities and with religious minorities. And I feel like there's just a lot of religious folks who are, you know, reading more into politics, reading more into party platforms, and starting to feel like they align more with conservative values than with liberal values in Canada. And I think that's an important point because at the end of the day, this whole movement is definitely political.

And you hear that and see that with, for example, the video of Trudeau that went viral. Trudeau is always tied to this stuff, which doesn't really make a ton of sense because it's not like the federal government is going and telling schools what to teach in their curriculums or telling municipalities where they should fly pride flags or paint rainbow crosswalks. But he is seen as this individual who's leading this culture war. There's definitely a lot of politics underpinning all of it. So as you point out in your piece, the Muslim community in Canada isn't a monolith. It's very diverse with a wide array of perspectives. You mentioned that there's been a bunch of Muslim organizations that have signed this Navigating Differences letter. And I'm just wondering, what did you learn through your reporting about whether or not there is religious consensus when it comes to issues of gender diversity? So I would say overall there is not religious consensus among Islamic scholars.

There are those like people, organizations and individuals that sign that letter that say Islam is unequivocal in its stance on this. But there are different views. However, those views aren't nearly as prominent. You have to search pretty hard to find them in terms of things like people pointing out that there is precedent in Islamic societies and tradition of recognizing non-binary gender identities. And I think it's important to say there is a spectrum of beliefs. I think there's conservative positions and more progressive positions on this issue among all faiths. But they're certainly harder to find. And I think there is a certain level of ostracism that people face for taking a different stand. And I think that's discouraged people from expressing

some of the more diverse views on this subject. Yeah, this story, it can be pretty difficult to talk about because it's so layered. We're talking about two marginalized groups, Muslims and LGBTQ people, and progressive activists have been kind of baffled to see Muslim parents joining forces with far-right groups that have demonized them in the past. And at the intersection of all of this are LGBTQ Muslims. And I wonder what you've heard from them about all of this. It was really hard to find LGBTQ Muslim voices. I had a number of people get back to me and say, I can only speak off the record, but I'm not putting my name out there and attached to this.

And that was really unfortunate and really frustrating because it's clear that all of this rhetoric does have an impact on people's lives and their comfort with who they are. Okay, Omar, thank you so much for helping us unpack this really complicated issue. I appreciate it. Thanks for your interest and for having me on the show. All right, that's all for today. I'm Tamara Kandaker. Thank you so much for listening, and I will talk to you tomorrow.