Front Burner - Are trans youth a 'political football' in Alberta?

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Alberta premier Danielle Smith has frequently said that she doesn't want to politicize issues around the rights and personal decisions of transgender youth. But then, last week, she unveiled the toughest set of policies affecting trans teens in the country. The proposed rules would have wide-ranging impacts for gender-affirming medical care, sports, sex education and the use of preferred pronouns in schools. Today, CBC Calgary's Jason Markusoff joins us for a look at the reaction in Alberta to the proposed policies, and why Smith may have so dramatically changed her position on this issue now. For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Damon Fairless. So last Friday, Alberta Premier Danielle Smith was at a town hall meeting in Medicine Hat, along with a local MLA. The two of them were responding to questions about a number of policies Smith has proposed which affect trans youth. When someone in the crowd stood up. If we disagree with trans folks transitioning,

just because we disagree with it doesn't mean it's our right to stop it. You're changing legislation. That's a guy named Ashley Large. And after saying his piece, he walks out of the meeting. I'm sorry, I'm leaving. I've been to two funerals with children. I've taken their lives because of this issue. Two of them. Go to one of those funerals. Watch those parents bury their kids. This is bad. Large later told reporters he has a trans kid.

And that's just one example of the opposition Danielle Smith has faced since announcing these proposed policies last week. When I came out as trans, I actually was disowned by my family. It is not just a statistical anomaly. It is an actual thing that does happen to people. These policies sound like they do kind of the opposite of bringing in supports and everything. Today I'm speaking with Jason Markosoff. He's a producer and writer with CBC Calgary, and he's going to tell us about these proposed policies,

the reactions to them, and the impact they might have. Hey, Jason, it's good to have you back on. Hey, it's great to be here. Okay, so let's start at the beginning. So let's walk through what these proposed policies are. There's a bunch of them. I want to break them down. Let's talk about first the proposed changes to gender-affirming medical care for teens.

It's a big one because it's the first time in Canada a province or a government has tried to make changes on this. Danielle Smith is promising to ban gender-affirming surgery for anybody under the age of 18. Now, genital or bottom reassignment surgery is already not allowed for anybody under 18. So she's doing something that's a bit of a moot point, maybe signaling, maybe just confirming that it can't happen legally in Alberta. Top surgery happens. It happens in very few cases. We're talking about maybe a dozen,

a couple dozen times in Alberta per year. But the other big one is that she's also banning hormone treatment and puberty blockers for anybody under the age 16. And that's going to be a much larger universe of trans youth who are transitioning because puberty, of course, mostly happens before you're 16. So that's when people want, you know, doctors want to stall puberty or delay puberty for people who are looking to transition.

I think it's worth stopping and mentioning that we're talking about these interventions in the context of gender-affirming surgeries or gender-affirming treatments. But the fact is that a lot of these things are done outside that context, too. So, top surgery, for instance, is really common with young women or teens who need a breast reduction or, you know, say, treatment of breast cancer. Hormone therapy, another form of that, is the pill. breast cancer. Hormone therapy, another form of that is the pill. And even puberty blockers, that's done if, say, kids are growth restricted and they need to grow. You can block puberty, give them growth hormone, and then take them off the puberty blockers. So I guess the question I have is, are the restriction of these treatments intended specifically for trans kids, or would that be across the board?

We don't know. These are, there's no policy written out. There's no legislation there. All we have to go on is what Premier Daniel Smith has said in a social media video. I strongly believe that we as a society must support and reach out with kindness and inclusion to those who identify as transgender and work to eliminate the discrimination they often experience in their lives. As premier of this province, I want every Albertan that identifies as transgender to know I care deeply about you and I accept you as you are. And in a few press conferences and interviews. I just want to make sure that the protocols are in place so

that every child is protected. I don't want any child to feel regret for their decision or feel that they made it prematurely. Parents are the ones who are most concerned. They want to know what's going on with their kids. And I think, unfortunately, what we're seeing is that increasingly there are policies being proposed that would divide families. And we want to make sure that families stay together because, quite frankly, these kids are at risk. And they need to have a loving, supportive family around them. They need to have loving, supportive adults around them. And you don't get to... Of course, the devil will be in the details on these things, but it's yet to come. Let's talk about going back to the proposed changes.

What about sports? Sports is a tricky one. It's a bit confusing as to how they're going to actually do this because it's not like there's like laws that the province has about what amateur sport or professional sport organizations do in Alberta. But the idea is that they want to ban transgender women from playing sports in women's divisions. The other thing that they want to do is encourage sports organizations to have non-binary or gender neutral or co-ed organizations or divisions so that trans people can play in those divisions. We will work with sporting organizations to ensure that women and girls have a choice to participate

in competitive sport without having to compete against biologically stronger transgender women athletes. While also ensuring that we work with those same organizations to expand co-ed and gender neutral categories so that every transgender athlete can meaningfully participate in the sports that they love? It's very confusing. It's been very perplexing for people to hear about that. I think there's been some experimentation with some non-binary categories in some sports,

and there's not much uptake because we're talking about a very small proportion of the population who is trans and an even smaller portion of the population who plays competitive sports. You know, a lot of people will argue, critics, that this is a solution in search of a problem. Then there are issues about what happens in schools, right? So there's some proposed policies there. Can you kind of help me understand what those might be. Yeah. So this was the one that's probably familiar to people in the Canadian discourse, because this follows what the parental rights debates, so-called in Saskatchewan and New Brunswick, where any student who wants to use a different

given name or use a different pronoun must get parental consent if they're under the age of 16. So Daniel Smith in Alberta would be adopting that rule, but also requiring students age 16 or 17 to get parental notification. So they'd have to tell their parents they couldn't just experiment in a safe space at school anymore with a different pronoun or different name. Additionally, there's this new opt-in rule that they're going to bring in. If a teacher wants to instruct or has any instructions relating to sexual orientation, human sexuality, or gender identity, and not just sex ed, this could be even teaching a material with a gay character, they'd have to get parents to opt in. They'd have to get a permission slip from parents. We will ensure discussions about gender identity and

other sensitive subjects happen at the right time and with the parent-child relationship at its core. This will include a parental opt-in consent requirement when teachers plan to discuss subject matter related to gender identity, sexual orientation or sexuality for K-12 students. As opposed to the current system, which is sexual topics require notification and parents can opt out. This time they've had to opt in. That could have a real chilling effect on what people teach in schools. And then the last one is requiring any third-party materials that teachers use to instruct on sexual topics. It has to be approved, pre-approved by

the Ministry of Education to see that it's age appropriate. You know, coming out of understanding what they are now, like, why did Danielle Smith feel these rules are necessary? What's her rationale? they are now. Like, why did Danielle Smith feel these rules are necessary? What's her rationale? Her rationale is that she wants to preserve choices for trans youth and trans people. And she has depicted this, she's said, like, the transition goes on continual. That, you know, at first people might dress differently. Then they may experiment with different pronouns and different name. And then they'd get treatment and then they'd get surgery to complete their transition.

And she wants to put guardrails at every step of that journey. You know, people who are advocates for trans youth and LGBTQ issues will say not everybody follows that path. It's not always nice and neat. And a stark minority of people wound up getting, going to get surgery. And they're, you know, they're questioning whether, you know, if it's about parental rights, if you want parental rights, which of course is one of the big buzzwords on this, why are you preventing parents from getting their kids gender affirming surgery? Right. A lot of it seems to be like, a lot of this argument seems to be predicated around

risk or perceived risks. So like Danielle Smith said that these policies are intended to protect kids, arguing that there are some kids who will go and these kids argue that her proposed policies are potentially risky themselves, right? So the Canadian Pediatric Society wrote a letter saying that her proposed policies will, and then I'll quote here, will lead to significant negative health outcomes, including risk of suicide and self-harm. And the doctors, again, who work with these kids point out that puberty blockers are generally reversible. Hormone therapy is generally somewhat reversible. And I think the biggest point is that none of this is done without, you know, really lengthy consultation from a team of experts. This isn't, you know, this isn't like going and getting a piercing or something like that. So I guess, you know, has Daniel Smith responded to the concerns from those experts? She's combating a lot of this with anecdotes, as politicians want to do sometime when the medical evidence or the established facts don't necessarily back them up. Did you consult with experts on this? Because medical experts in your province are saying they were not consulted on this policy. I can tell you that there's a division in the medical community. And so we're watching what's happening in the UK and Denmark and the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Norway. They're all making these kinds of really difficult decisions

and having these really important public discussions. And we think it's time that we did too. Now there is, let's be clear, in Europe, there has been some academic and medical authority thinking about this, and they've taken a different approach. There are restrictions on treatments for transgender youth or transitioning youth under 16 in places like Sweden, in the United Kingdom. But in North America, as you say, the American and Canadian medical establishments and associations have positions on this, and they are supportive of these treatments with the right guardrails for young people. So she's going to combat these with a lot of anecdotes. I wanted to start off by asking what problem you aim to solve with those policies and potentially legislation? Look, I mean, I have heard from

transgender Albertans, one in particular has me very concerned that she felt like she was pressured into making a decision on surgery faster than she otherwise would have and has had nothing but problems in the 14 years since. I'm talking about one woman, Lois Cardinal. She keeps bringing up this woman, Lois Cardinal, who back in 2009 got bottom reassignment surgery and has suffered greatly since with regret. She calls herself sterilized, has even tried to seek medical assistance in death and was refused. That is not, you know, that is an outlier case that it made her, Danielle Smith, think that maybe we need to be put more restrictions on how young people can be or how old people have to be before they make these major life decisions. Yeah. And I mean, it's a compelling anecdote, I think. But as you point out, anecdotal is

different than kind of data-driven arguments. And I think the data is pretty clear that, you know, the majority of kids who receive gender-affirming treatment have quite a positive mental health outcome. That's right. So yes, Danielle Smith is worried about those teens that might be making a mistake and going forth with transition surgery or transition treatment and then having regrets later in life. That may be true in some cases, but it might also be true in many cases that preventing them from making these changes,

keeping them in the body that they don't feel is theirs or the identity that they don't feel is theirs will also have drastic effects on people's well-being. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

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and be who they are cracked down on. I find it rather disgusting that they're trying to take away our rights. I didn't have to protest a discriminatory bill but I do so I'm here doing that. School is supposed to be a safe place and that's where I feel safe to be who I am and even though I have very supportive parents I know some of my friends they only feel safe at school because they can use their chosen name they can use their chosen pronouns. I cried when I watched the video um it just really hit me that this was actually happening and this wasn't just like... That kind of leads us to talking about the teachers, really the

adult actors in that supposed safe space. So I guess I'm curious what kind of responses you're hearing from teachers after this announcement from Daniel Smith. Teachers don't want to out their children. They want to generally provide safe spaces for their kids, build this circle of trust for teens to figure out who they are. So that will change that.

I mean, and the idea that you have to get more permission slips every time you want to have certain levels of content about gender identity or orientation or human sexuality that are not sex ed related. Um, that's going to chill some people in the education system, um, and steer them away from content that could be deemed, uh, you know,

troublesome in this regard. You know, we've been talking about people who are voicing some concerns about this, but there's obviously lots of people in Alberta who are supportive of these proposed policies. So can you tell me about what kind of support they're getting? Well, there hasn't been polling on a lot of this just yet. There have been polls as the policies on parental rights and notification for changing pronouns in school came out in Saskatchewan and New Brunswick. And parents and people who aren't parents are broadly in support of these ideas. And for reasons that you kind of get. I mean, if you're a parent, I'm a parent, you kind of want to know what your kids are up to at school or anywhere.

You don't want them to keep secrets from you. And you think, you know, if they want to change their pronouns, that you love them and support them. So of course you want to know. So there's a lot of emotional service level understanding of that for parents, which may inform the poll results. But we do know that there are, there is a movement out there, not a huge movement, but it's a movement out there of people who are very supportive of these ideas and really want, uh, these ideas having calling on some government somewhere to, uh, protect families from, uh, the transgender agenda or the LGBTQ, uh, wave, um, stop indoctrinating children, stop, uh, stop taking our children away.

That group is very triumphant. They didn't think that Danielle Smith was going to go this far, go as far as she's proposing to do. Yeah, I think that's exactly what I wanted to ask. I mean, Danielle Smith has said before that she's not going to use trans teens as a, quote, political football. Has she explained why the change? Has she explained why the change? Last summer, I wrote a piece for CBC's website that headlined something like, Danielle Smith is bucking right-wing friends on LGBTQ plus issues. I've been joking around the office. Should I ceremonially put that piece into the shredder right now?

She has a history as a libertarian. Yeah. A social libertarian. She, like I said earlier, she fought against the government, opposed to government involvement in personal issues. She even has a tattoo of a Sumerian word for liberty on one of her arms.

She praises the Civil Liberties Association. And every time that she's been asked in the last year about what's happening in New Brunswick and what's happening in Saskatchewan, she says, well, I really want to depoliticize this situation. So how's she rationalizing this set of

proposed policies with that stance? It's quite a turn, and I don't think we've really unpacked with her or she's really allowed us to unpack why she's doing this. Big question is, is she doing this to conform to the wishes of her of a hard right base within

the United Conservative Party, her governing party and the movement that is really calling on this. Groups like Take Back Alberta that have really made inroads into the United Conservatives and trying to push and pushing for this. But are there risks to her government coming forward with a more explicitly socially conservative policy like this? We've seen in the past social conservative issues do not play well in the general public. Like I said, there are people who support the idea notionally of parental rights. The electoral success of this is unclear. In Manitoba, the PC party hadn't brought it in,

but they were promising it while in government last year, and they lost to the NDP. Saskatchewan and New Brunswick are going to be testing these policies that they've already put in place with elections this fall. It's not clear how they're going to play in the general public. There are some politicians who think these are winners. There are a lot of people who argue that these are pushing the culture wars. They are playing on a small minority of people who are affected. But what does the general public think about this? It's not clear, but it is fraught. I mean, look, Danielle Smith is doing this three years out from her next election.

I don't know if she would be doing this, you know, in an election year. But, yeah, I guess that's what I find curious is that, you know, it's early in her term. She's, you know, came into power with a fair amount of support. She's got a pretty strong base right now. Like I, I'm not sure. I don't understand why she would choose something that's a bit of a roll of the die, right? Like why is she bringing these policies in now? Does she need a win for her base?

What do you think the rationale is? The, the, the conservative base in Alberta, the United conservative base, threw out the last guy because they felt that he was not listening to what they wanted. Jason Kenney was very popular among conservatives in Alberta until during the pandemic when a lot of people, mostly rural conservatives, were very offended by his COVID policies, his vaccine mandates and restrictions. And they felt that that was not where they were, so they tossed him out. They really pushed this agenda to crack down on transgender peoples and youth rights. Danielle Smith may have wanted to give them this win and give them this win far enough out from an election that by 2027, once these policies have been in place for a while, the general public will think about other things.

So these are, you know, we've been talking a lot about them, but they are just proposals at this point. They're not law. What happens now? You know, if she does move to enact these into law, particularly something as contentious as the gender-affirming treatments, how do you see that playing out? We have already heard that some organizations plan to sue the government on this and challenge them in court. Of course, in Saskatchewan, when they made that policy on gender

pronouns, an organization from University of Regina sought an injunction, and they got an injunction. The judge said that these policies could really harm young people. The Saskatchewan government turned around and said, we really believe in these rules. We believe that parents have a right to know what their kids are doing.

And they got the legislature back, legislated this, and applied the notwithstanding clause. The nuclear bomb, basically, of Canadian politics, overriding the Charter of Rights and Freedom. We keep asking Danielle Smith, the media, about what she would do on that. And she says she hopes it doesn't come to that. She doesn't say yes or no, how far she would go. Certainly, I don't know how she could go ahead and say that that's not politicizing it if she's going to override the charter through legislation on doing that.

And I don't also know how, should she do that, how that squares with her own streak as somebody who believes in civil liberties. All right, Jason. Well, looks like we'll find out. Really appreciate it. You talked to me. Thanks. Oh, it's my pleasure. Cheers.

All right. That's it for today. I'm Damon Fairless. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.