Front Burner - Are you worried about U.S. travel?

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

For many Canadians, travel to the United States is a yearly routine. But that’s started to change.People around the world have shared stories about travel to the U.S. gone wrong. Some have been pulled into the back rooms of airports for additional screening, others have been pressured to share their social media accounts for examination and in the worst case scenarios, detained.Now, out of fear or even national pride, many travelers are rethinking their travel plans. In March, nearly 900,000 fewer Canadians visited the U.S. So, what might you encounter if you choose to head down south? Is there reason to be concerned?Today, Hannah Sampson, a travel reporter with the Washington Post, joins the show to break down the reality of traveling to the U.S. under Trump.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

We get it. Choosing a news podcast is hard. Some cover a lot of headlines. Others are a deep dive on just one story. Here at Your World Tonight, we're the best of both worlds, covering the biggest stories of the day, but with enough time for you to actually understand them. The full picture in under half an hour. I'm Susan Bonner, host of Your World Tonight. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. If you're not a legal permanent resident or a US citizen, travel is rough right now. What's going on at the Canadian border? I'm hearing all of these crazy stories of people being detained, people being denied

entry, especially if they've spoken out against the Trump administration on social media. Usually they're like very friendly. We cross very often. Our cottage is there. And then this time it just felt like very cold. Next, they were told to put their hands against the wall, pat it down like a criminal, and then sent off to a holding cell.

One was denied entry. The other was a guy that was just over there for the weekend with his family, tried to come back and ended up being kept in custody for five hours. Student trips south of the border planned for the next school year just aren't worth the risk of having students scrutinized at the border or worse. So I've canceled my next trip to the United States. It's not safe to travel anywhere in the United States.

anywhere in the United States. Music Hey everybody, I'm Jamie Poisson. And what you've just heard are a few of the hundreds of videos in recent weeks from Canadians on social media, talking about their experiences at the U.S. border, or the reasons why they're not going to cross the border at all. The reality of increased difficulty, suspicion, and fear has spread across the world, US border or the reasons why they're not going to cross the border at all. The reality of increased difficulty, suspicion, and fear has spread across the world, leaving

many travelers to view the US as a country no longer safe or worthwhile to visit. Even American citizens have been subject to harassment at US airports. So at a time when many are canceling trips to the States due to fear or even national pride, we wanted to have a conversation about what you could encounter at the US border, whether fear is even necessary at all, and what you should be thinking about in order to safely travel to a country many are now looking at with skepticism. Hannah Sampson is a travel reporter with the Washington Post. And before we get into it, just a note, we are not lawyers.

This is not legal advice, nor is it every traveler's experience crossing the border. But it's some of what you should keep in mind if you're planning a trip down south. Hannah, thank you so much for coming onto the show. Thank you so much for having me. So Donald Trump has now been in office for just over 100 days, and this time has been marked by radical change across a number of sectors of American life. But one is travel. You've been covering this industry for years now.

Have all these changes, the general volatility at the border caught you off guard? And have you ever seen this much concern over travel to the United States? You know, I have not seen, especially from our close neighbors, the Canadians, this level of concern. During the first Trump administration, I think there was a lot of confusion and a lot of fear because he instituted what a lot of people were calling the Muslim ban, where there was just this blanket policy of people from certain countries who weren't allowed to come to the US. But that wasn't Canada. That wasn't the people who would normally be coming into the country for vacation all the time. So I think that this is different

in that we've seen it applied to our top international tourist market. And that is resonating throughout Canada and internationally, that fear and that uncertainty. So, you know, there was an early executive order about cracking down on immigration at the border. So I guess we shouldn't be so surprised that some of these things are happening. But I think kind of the impact that it's had and the add on effects of people just saying, I'm not doing it, I'm not coming. To me, it has been a little surprising. Yeah. Before we get into all of this further, just what do you think in a general sense Canadian travelers to the United States should have on hand?

What checks and balances should be in order before they cross a port of entry into the United States? Yeah, I mean, this is probably going to be a long checklist and still incomplete. So, you know, everyone do additional research on your own. But I think an important thing to have just for peace of mind is the number of an immigration attorney, like just in case you're one of the few people who find yourself in a bad situation. Have a phone that has things on it that you don't mind showing other people. So if you think that there are things on your phone that are going to get you flagged at immigration, if

somebody were to see it, clean up your phone, get a new phone, have all your papers in order. So your passport, make sure you have that. If you are supposed to have registered with the US, if you're coming by land for a long trip, make sure that's done. And this is kind of what people tell US citizens when they're traveling abroad, but make sure that somebody at home knows where you're supposed to be all the time, knows how to get a hold of you, kind of has copies of your itinerary so that if somehow you weren't responding to them or they couldn't reach you, they would have a good idea of how to track you down. And I don't say that

to be alarmist, but it's just a good practice. U.S. law is governed by the Constitution and things like statutory law, treaties, and administrative regulations. As a result, citizens and non-citizens alike, even people suspected of crimes, can expect certain rights and due process. That's how the law works. But my understanding is that things are different in some ways at the border and in airports. There's generally a reduced expectation of privacy and to counsel. I just wonder if you could flesh that out for me a little bit more and explain the differences between the rights of a person at a border crossing or an airport, to be more specific,

versus somewhere on the street in a major American city like Chicago. Yeah, I mean, I think all of us who have watched Law and Order or some kind of true crime show would immediately think to say, well, where's your warrant? Why do you have the right to look at my phone or my laptop or something? You know, you don't have that on your side when you're crossing the border when you're coming through an airport. So a Border Patrol agent can ask for your cell phone, they can ask to look at your laptop. And if you decline, they have the authority whether to let you

into the country. So if it's crucial that they not, then your vacation is probably not going to happen. So yes, they're allowed. You can't really claim that they're violating your privacy. And then if you're a US citizen, I think you have a little more leeway about what you can and can't do. But if you're a visitor, you're really at the mercy of what their search is going to be.

And that's why I've seen a lot of advice to make sure that you're okay with whatever's on your phone being seen by someone else and doing some preemptive cleanup or weeding out or whatever, because yes, it's their right to ask for it and your admittance could depend on complying with what they ask. Right.

Hannah, if I don't consent to them searching my phone, let's say I say, okay, I'll just go back to my country. I'll just go back to where I came from. Can they take the phone anyways? Can they seize it anyways? So what the ACLU says is that you can say that you don't consent to that search, but as they say, quote, unfortunately, this likely won't prevent Customs and Border Protection from taking your phone, end quote.

So once you're in that position, I don't think that I would count on being allowed to say, actually, nevermind, I'm going to turn around and go home. Let's call this whole thing off. Once you're in it, you're in it. Very good chance that you're just in it, yeah. Okay, and just to continue on this for a moment, I understand there are generally two kinds of electronic searches that can happen at a border, manual and advanced,

or forensic search, and just, could you walk me through the distinction between the two and the options at the disposal of someone that is being subject to this? Right so there's a basic search which would be just somebody looking at your phone and it's not any additional technology involved in a search. The next level is an advanced search and there's external equipment involved. So in that case they could be using something else to review it or copy what's on your phone or analyze what's on the phone. And the bar is a little higher. Our reporting has said for them to do that they need to reasonably suspect some kind of violation of law and they need to have

approval from a manager But I mean that's still not a warrant that a judge has to sign So yeah if for whatever reason they have any additional suspicion and can get a manager to sign off then They could just be like hooking stuff up to your phone and doing something that looks definitely more invasive than just kind of like swiping. Can border agents pull you out of line and subject someone to, quote, additional screening at any time? Do they need a reason? You know, they're not supposed to be questioning people for

They're not supposed to be questioning people for protected reasons for by virtue of their race or appearance. But honestly, like, if if they're doing that, are they going to admit to that? No, they they have a lot of leeway to pull people and question them for whatever reasons they find meaningful. and its role in protecting the rights and freedoms of all Canadians. Its guiding motto of justice and truth has defined its decisions since 1875. The new one dollar commemorative coin features a semicircle of laurels, symbolizing the nine judges and the court's enduring commitment to justice. Find the limited edition 150th anniversary of the Supreme Court of Canada coined today. Have you ever finished a book and just needed to talk about it immediately? Or wanted to know the wildest research an author has done for a book? Or even what book talk books are actually worth your time? Hi, I'm Morgan Book. Yes, that is actually my last name. And this is Off the Shelf,

my new podcast that covers everything related to books. Each Thursday, I chat with other bookworms and authors, or sometimes it's just me rambling about my latest book obsession. From book to screen updates to hot takes on new releases and of course our monthly book club discussions, I've got you covered. So get your TBR list ready and listen to Off the Shelf wherever you get your podcasts. I wonder if I could run through some scenarios with you now, some hypothetical scenarios. Let's say you're flying from Calgary to Dallas on a work trip. You have a single carry-on bag as well as backpack.

And when you land, you're pulled out of the immigration line for additional screening and the agents begin to ask you about your feelings towards Donald Trump. What options do travelers have here? Can you refuse to answer? Should you lie, let's say, if you are someone who believes Donald Trump to be anti-democratic? So if you don't answer, then you may not be allowed into the country. So keep in mind that refusing to answer a question could work against you. That said, I wouldn't tell anyone to lie. And I would especially say, if you give one answer

and they look at your phone and your phone reveals something different from what you say, then you've just kind of dug yourself into a new bad situation. I am not a lawyer, but I don't know that you need to make the immigration line a platform for your strongest held political beliefs. I think that you should engage with the customs person, answer their questions, but you don't

need to give a treatise. I would tell Canadian relatives coming into the country, I feel like immigration lawyers would have a probably more measured and legally defensible response to that question. But I just think about, you know, the advice that if you have something bad to say, you don't really need to say it explicitly and in a way that could land you in hot water. Mm hmm. Let's say that you are a family of five traveling from Montreal to Orlando for a holiday. You are a politically engaged family that watches, discusses and debates the news.

Let's say the teenage daughter and the son are both avid posters on social media and have a presence on things like Palestinian rights and genocide and ethnic cleansing in places like Sudan. Should the parents tell the kids to leave their devices at home? Should they be temporarily deactivating their social media profiles before entering the U.S.? I wouldn't come into the U.S. with really strong political writing on my phone, I think, at this point. It's not that hard to take Facebook or Twitter or whatever the kids are using off of your phone when you're crossing the border. And it's probably not that hard to pick up a temporary phone if you want to be extra safe. But I would say on the off chance, on the very small chance that somebody

decides that day is the day they're going to search teenagers' social media profiles and really dig in if they find something that in their mind is inflammatory, that I would act in an abundance of caution. There have been stories from travelers and U.S. visa holders at American ports of entry over the last few months. There was the Canadian U.S. visa holder sent to an immigration detention center for nearly two weeks. A New Hampshire green card holder who was hospitalized following what was described as a violent interrogation at Boston's Logan Airport where the man was stripped naked and put in a cold shower by two officials and ultimately sent to immigration

detention. There's the case of two German teenage girls who were deported from Hawaii after telling immigration officials they would be occasionally performing freelance work for German companies while they backpack through America. Or that of a 28-year-old British tourist who was stopped at a U.S. border in Washington State on her way back to a work exchange trip where she planned to trade house tours for free accommodation. Despite the fact that no money exchanged hands, those arrangements could still be viewed as work, which violates the terms of a tourist visa. She was detained for 19 days and eventually deported back to Britain.

And I'm just interested to hear from you as somebody who has covered this, your reaction to those stories as they come in and how indicative you think they are of the general climate of travel into the United States. So on the one hand, I think I would say that these, despite that long list in the context of the broader number of tourists who come into the country that they are isolated. That doesn't make people feel better who've been in that situation and it doesn't ease the fear for a lot of people who are rethinking plans to come to the U.S. But I would also say that I think it points a finger at the nuances of tourist visas and what you are and aren't allowed to do coming into

the US as a tourist. And something that I just don't think people think about. And it appears that it's really important to think about those things. Because if you're coming across the border and you don't realize that you're not allowed to do any freelance work when you're in the country, it can obviously go very badly for you. So I think it speaks to the level of brushing up on the horrors of visa law that people need to do if they're coming to the country just for peace of mind. The level of enforcement that we're seeing that I don't know if any of this was happening before the Trump administration, but we certainly weren't hearing multiple stories about it. And then the way that these stories are resonating and creating these ripple effects of fear and uncertainty among other tourists is really meaningful and powerful. And I see them brought

up and echoed all the time in conversation from potential tourists or people who are deciding to go to places other than the United States. All this fear and uncertainty, it's taken this tremendous toll on the US tourism sector, right, which is believed to account for 2.5% of the US economy. It's been reported that 900,000 less Canadians traveled to the US last month. That was a surprisingly large number to me. And these trends are generally true for a number of countries in Western Europe and across the world as well. Goldman Sachs has also estimated the US is set to lose up to $90 billion in tourism this year,

a pretty incredible number. I guess, generally, are you surprised by these trends? And is there an expectation in the industry that they will continue? I would say we are seeing some estimates that this will continue. It's kind of hard to shake out, if you exclude Canada, it's a little bit hard to shake out at this point the impact of the timing of the Easter holiday in the numbers that we're seeing because of when it fell last year and when it fell this year, you're just gonna normally see differences in when people are coming when the holiday falls. So I think maybe in another couple of months,

we'll probably see a little bit more of a global indication, but I mean, there's no denying that the numbers from Canada are way down. There's no denying that the places where Canadians like to go to, like Arizona and New York and Florida and California are getting very nervous. And honestly, the US tourism industry in general is really alarmed.

So I mean, yes, the expectation is that this drop will continue, especially from Canadians. And that's, it's just not good news to the US economy. And it's especially not good news to these states and these cities that welcome so many Canadians every year and kind of have made them part of their economy. So I mean, I think we're seeing people like the California governor start to do some outreach and start to say, like, hey, the country stands is not our stance. We love you. We want you back. We're going to put, you know, big hearts with Canadian flags up in our cities to try to get you to come back. I feel like their job is made harder, though, by the fact that it's not just tourists coming to the U.S.

in smaller and smaller numbers, but governments appear to be reacting to this as well, right? Even insulating their diplomats and officials from the threat of US espionage at ports of entry. The European Commission, for example, is issuing burner phones and basic laptops to some US-bound staff to avoid the risk of espionage. An updated travel advisory from the Canadian government has warned visitors to the US who stay more than 30 days that they could face fines and misdemeanor prosecution. Quote, the government of Canada cannot intervene on your behalf. The German Federal Foreign

Office has emphasized that having an electronic system for travel authorization does not guarantee entry and travelers may face detention or deportation even with valid documentation. And so what do you make of the way other countries have been responding to the threat of traveling to the US? These are measures typically afforded to so-called hostile nations. It's actually quite stunning. Yeah, I mean, you know, every country needs to issue guidelines or warnings for their own citizens when they're traveling to another country. And they're doing their jobs by telling their own citizens, this is what you could expect and this is what you should be careful of if you're going to the US.

And honestly, business travel really needs to think about data security. If they're sending travelers into a country where their devices can be searched. There's sensitive information there. Even if CBP is supposed to be aware and sensitive to sensitive information, it's a risk that a lot of people aren't going to want to or aren't going to be able to take. So I see all of this potentially really working against the US, at least from a tourism perspective, because it really does create this atmosphere of concern and risk and uncertainty that is not good for travel, business travel or leisure travel. We talked at the beginning about how this drag net has widened so much to catch

all of these people who historically have not been caught up. Post-911, most Muslim or Arab families, even those who were mistaken for Muslim or Arab, were subject to incredible amounts of harassment and abuse at U.S. ports of entry, at U.S. airports. With that particular moment in mind, are people looking at this moment as an aberration? Or is this part of a broader story of American travel, which tends to go through moments of repression? You know, you mentioned, I think at the beginning, also the Muslim ban, right? In which certain groups are treated with increased scrutiny? Yeah, I mean, there is not a great history in the US

about travel and racism, or travel and flagging people for suspicion unjustly. Even domestically traveling, there have been instances of racism and bigotry targeting Muslim Americans, Black travelers. Travel is an activity that is fraught with the potential for overreach and abuse. And I think about my Canadian great aunts and second cousins, because my mom's side is Canadian, and how they used to come down to the Florida Keys all the time and sunbathe. And it was

just kind of like part of life for those members of my family and for so many Canadians throughout the years who did not have to encounter this kind of thing where they felt like they were being directly targeted by the US with, you know, rhetoric like tariffs and rhetoric like making you the 51st state. I mean, it's not the same kind of direct targeting of individuals because of their religion or because of their appearance. But it is something that people are taking very personally because it's directed at their citizenship and their identity as Canadians. So, you know, other travelers have had it

bad and worse, I would say, than what Canadians are experiencing right now. But I'm sure it still feels like a shock to the system because the relationship has been so friendly for so long and travelers have been welcomed with open arms for the most part. So yes, it falls into this pattern, but I would say not as extreme as what we would have seen after 9-11. Hannah, this is great.

Thank you so much. You're so welcome. Thanks for chatting with me. All right. That is all for today. Frontburner was produced this week and it was a very long week by Matthew Amha, Matt Muse, Ali Janes, Joyfus Shangupta, Lauren Donnelly, Kieran Oudtshorn and Mackenzie Cameron. Our video producer is Evan Agard and our YouTube producer is John Lee.

Our music is by Joseph Shabason. Our senior producer is Elaine Chao. Our executive producer is Nick McKay, Below Coast. I just want to thank everyone I just mentioned there. It was a lot this week with the election and I'm so lucky to work with such a talented team. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next week.