Front Burner - Arson, violence and a decades-old fishing feud

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

Opposition to the launch of a Mi’kmaw lobster fishery in Nova Scotia last month has grown increasingly violent. Over the past week, two facilities storing Mi’kmaw catches were targeted and vandalized by several hundred non-Indigenous commercial fishermen and their supporters, one facility was burned to the ground and a man has been charged with assaulting the chief of Sipekne'katik First Nation. But this is just the latest chapter in a dispute that stretches back at least two decades. APTN reporters Angel Moore and Trina Roache discuss the latest developments and explain the complex history behind this conflict.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Wow. So the crackling and sirens you're hearing here are from a video shot early Saturday by a bystander woken up in the middle of the night in Middle West Pubnico, Nova Scotia. Flames are engulfing a lobster storage pound used by indigenous Mi'kmaq fishermen. By morning, the facility would be burnt to the ground.

The RCMP says the blaze is suspicious, and the Mounties are now facing intense criticism for not doing more to intervene in tensions that have been escalating for weeks between the Mi'kmaq and non-indigenous fishermen. The same pound leveled by fire this weekend was one of two surrounded last week by angry mobs vandalizing vehicles and throwing rocks through windows. Piles of dead lobster were strewn on the ground in the aftermath. This is an incredibly fraught issue and it goes back much further than this latest chapter. Today, the latest from the ground at the roots of this dispute. I'm Jamie Poisson, and this is FrontBurner. My guests today are two APTN journalists who have been covering this story, Trina Roach and Angel Moore. Hello to you both.

Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me. I want to start today with this latest chapter in what I know is a very long dispute here, which began in mid-September when the Sebegan Agatee First Nation in Sarniaville, Nova Scotia, which is about 250 kilometers southwest of Halifax, launched their own fishery to catch lobster. And Trina, what is this fishery that they launched? Well, it's a moderate livelihood fishery, a small scale commercial fishery really that the Mi'kmaq are engaging in based on their treaty right to be able to

fish or hunt or gather and sell or trade those resources to earn a living. And so that's what we're seeing happen right now in Saunierville. Okay. And I understand non-Indigenous fishermen oppose this right away. And briefly, why are they opposed to this fishery? I mean, you hear a lot of rhetoric around conservation. Camus had been trying to negotiate peacefully for the Maritime Fishermen's Union, but resigned his position after saying he was intimidated by his own people. And while he condemns violence, he says conservation of lobster stocks is a valid concern. As it's going now, it's going to be a matter of time that the lobster stock is going to dwindle.

It might go the way of the codfish, you don't know. But I think the ultimate reason is that they feel it's unfair that the Mi'kmaq are out fishing at a time when the commercial fishermen cannot. Because I've heard them say, we just want one set of rules for everybody and this isn't fair. And so I really think it comes down to the fact that the Mi'kmaq are out there on the water trying to make a living when the commercial fishermen can't, and they feel that it's not fair to them. Mr. Coman, is that your wife there in the car? What I would like to see happen is for everybody to just fish a regular season. Everybody get along like it should be.

There's no reason why we cannot fish all together and live happily amongst one another in peace. Right, because their season doesn't start until next month, until November. And how does the Sebeginegadi First Nation and others respond to that criticism? Well, there's already a different set of rules. Because there is no equal set of rules, there's already a different set of rules

that apply to Indigenous fish harvesters. And so the Mi'kmaq have a treaty right. They're able to do this. They're able to do this. They're allowed to do this. There's no reason that the Mi'kmaq can't go fish right now. And so they're saying, we have a right to do this. We've been excluded from, you know, the fishery for a very long time. And the courts have upheld our right to do this.

And so there's no negotiation, really, that has to happen from the Mi'kmaq point of view. They just want to go be able to fish. With more, I want to bring in Chief Mike Sack. Are you fishing outside of a season or a time that you are permitted to fish or catch lobster? No, we're not. We haven't defined our season. and we will do that on our own when we're ready to do so. We're in compliance with all of our own regulations and we have a right to self-regulate our own fishery. Okay. And so you mentioned that this has been upheld

by the courts and I want to get into this a little bit more with you later. This is a complex issue. But before we do that, Angel, I'm hoping that we can talk to you for a little bit because over the last month, this has really escalated and you've been on the ground since this started in mid-September. And I know that you went out to film on a Mi'kmaq fishing boat on one of the first days after this fishery opened and and what happened when when you went out well I went out on the first Sunday after and we were the only the only Mi'kmaq boat to go out and at that time there was uh they said about 200 commercial fishermen boats out on the waters and uh you could see these boats on the horizon and the way the sun was they they looked like stars on the water.

But then I realized they were becoming closer and closer very quickly. And they circled us and they were chasing us around and they were cutting us off and it was dangerous. The Mi'kmaq fishers had just dropped their lobster traps. And as the boats were circling us uh they were you know basically well they were stealing the traps the Mi'kmaq traps then they started pulling our gear and just cutting our traps up and taking off with them and it was just hectic out there how did the people on the boat you were with react how did the Mi'kmaq well they were yelling i mean we were scared at first because they were approaching us so quickly and they were bigger

boats than the one we were on. And they were just yelling and they couldn't believe it. They said, they're hauling our traps, they're hauling our traps. And I caught it on camera and they were, you know, circling us. And then a couple of small boats came out from the wharf, Mi'kmaq boats. One was a jet boat and one was a Zodiac. And they were trying to get the traps back because, you know, they're not cheap. And I have filmed that as well of them pulling up and it was quite dangerous they're pulling up behind one of the commercial fishers boats pulling the trap this happened a few times and the people i was with on the boat they were yelling you know it's not worth it it's not safe uh it was very dangerous that you know at one point uh one of the smaller migma boats had gotten a trap off the larger boat,

but the rope was still on the larger boat, and you could see the commercial fisher pulling it. And we were quite afraid that if they attached an anchor to that rope, they could have taken them down. They could have killed them. So I know that similar kinds of tensions continued in the first few weeks after the fishery was launched, but then things really came to a head last Tuesday night. There were raids in two different locations at two lobster pound facilities where Mi'kmaq fishermen were storing their catches. And can you tell me what happened there? The first attack happened at New Edinburgh,

the pound at New Edinburgh. Commercial fishermen surrounded the pound and the Mi'kmaq. They blocked off the roads, both entrances, and I received a text message, quite a few text messages, and people were telling me that they were surrounded, and then they were telling me that they were trapped, and they were telling me that they couldn't get out. They told me it was very violent. There was a lot of yelling and pushing. they told me it was very violent. There was a lot of yelling and pushing. An elder was smudging. Her sage was knocked out of her hand. And then later that night, the second pound was attacked in Pubnico. And that's where Jason Marr was inside. And he was with another lobster harvester.

and he was with another lobster harvester, and he was inside protecting his lobster, and there's about 200 people there of commercial fishermen throwing rocks. You almost got me in the head with it. Cops won't even do nothing about it. You're standing beside a cop throwing it. Yelling, you know, trying to kick in the door to get the lobster, and they were yelling at him.

Come on down. Go the fuck home and never come back. And they were threatening to burn down the building with him inside of it. As that moved forward, he came out, and his sisters came to help him. They drove there and they were filming it on Facebook and people were hauling out crates of lobster and dumping it on the ground. As you could see the RCMP standing right there. And the next day... Hands off each other, guys. Hands off. Then stop them. I was driving that vehicle. I guarantee you I'd be in the back of your fucking vehicle. Gone the fuck out of here. Oh, you're illegal lobsters?

Walk away. Why would you do that? Walk away. Chief Mike Sack was at New Edinburgh Pound, and that's recorded on Facebook where he was assaulted by a commercial fisher person. I arrived there that night at the new Edinburgh Pound and the standoff was still going on. That standoff went on to about three in the morning. And the RSMP were standing there

keeping the two groups separate. There was vandalism happened that night. Cars were, pardon me, rocks were thrown at cars. A lot of yelling and insults and threats. So it was quite tense. Wow. So we have those two raids at both of the Lobster Pounds and then the following day and another day of altercations

that also included the alleged assault of the chief of the Sibagin Negadi First Nation. I want to come back to the RCMP with you in a moment. But first, these altercations, they bring us to this weekend, right? An early Saturday morning in the middle of the night, that same lobster pound where Jason Marr was trapped last Tuesday, the Mi'kmaq fisherman that you just spoke about, it was burned to the ground. And so tell me more about what happened there. That was a shock to everybody. RCMP said that no employees were injured, but there was a person with life-threatening injuries. And then I called the RCMP that morning, and they said that that person was a person of interest.

Right, in the burning of the Pubnico lobster pound. Trina, I want to bring you in here for a second. Angel mentioned the RCMP earlier. There have been criticisms that the Mounties have not done enough here. And what are the specific criticisms that the RCMP is facing? They have laid charges in connection to some of these things. Like someone was charged with assault for that altercation with the chief and with the burning of the van.

That's my the van. They've charged someone in relation to that. But overall, the criticism for indigenous people, for Mi'kmaq people in this case, but I think indigenous people across Canada, is that we see the RCMP response when there's indigenous protests. You know, if it's a pipeline or fracking in New Brunswick. We see, you know, like a military style response. And in this situation, I watched that Facebook Live video at the Pound that night, and there's RCMP standing there while commercial fishermen who are protesting are bringing crates of lobster oat, Mi'kmaq lobster oat, walking by

the cops and then dumping it. And so for the Mi'kmaq lobster oat, walking by the cops and then dumping it. And so for the Mi'kmaq, it's like, why were they just standing there allowing that? Why were they not stopping it? And then, you know, we have the RCMP Nova Scotia spokesperson interviewed. I watched that interview on CTV. And he said this is not a police issue. The RCMP understand what the issue here is. We don't see it as a police issue, but we understand both sides and we understand the passion and what they are bringing to the table. And we respect that. I thought it's not a police issue. Well,

Mi'kmaq people are saying, yeah, it is. People are vandalizing our stuff, our gear, our boats. There's assaults, there's threats. They just feel like if it was the other way around, the policing picture would look very different. Right. The argument here being that if it was the other way around, there would be far more police presence. I watched that CTV interview as well. It struck me that what he was trying to say was that the original underlying issue isn't a police issue, but these latest altercations, they're just trying to keep the peace. They just wanted to make sure everybody was safe and they didn't have enough resources to do more. What we see as our main objective here is the preservation of life. We're there to keep the peace.

We try to mitigate the situation and de-escalate the situation. What do you make of that? I just think that that's not acceptable. Because really, like from the get-go, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, like when the Sabag and Agadie launched their fishery and immediately had traps cut and gear vandalized, DFO was like, well, that's the RCMP's job. And then the RCMP, I think, is kind of saying, well, we're, you know, is this a police situation or is this something that DFO should be?

So like, yeah, it's like if there's criminal stuff happening, I would think that that would be a police issue and that would be something that the RCMP have to respond to. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of

the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So I know that both of you have talked about how this is the latest chapter in a very long dispute here. And I think I want to try and understand how things seem to have gotten so out of control here. Trina, I know that you did a documentary on this story, and it really hinges on this 1999 Supreme Court of Canada decision known as the Marshall decision. And can you talk to me about what the court decided there? Sure. I'll just start just very quickly just before that. You had Donald Marshall Jr.,

who asserted his treaty rights to go catch and sell eels out of season and without a license from DFO. And he was charged with illegal fishing and his gear was seized. And that is the case that went all the way to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court agreed. Yes, Marshall had treaty rights. They upheld and reaffirmed those treaty rights. And so that is the decision that's in play right now, 21 years later.

And the problem is that that court decision has never fully been implemented. And so that's why we're seeing a lot of the tension and conflict right now, because DFO never developed rules. They slid the Mi'kmaq into the existing commercial fishery with communal licenses. And there's the food fishery, which is food, you know, you can catch and to eat or for social or ceremonial purposes, but you can't sell it. But they never addressed the treaty right that Donald Marshall himself had exercised. And to fully understand that, you can say if Donald Marshall Jr. was alive today and did the exact same thing, he could be charged again, because DFO has not developed rules to recognize the treaty right. Right, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. And why have they not developed these rules that would put some clarity around this situation?

these rules that would put some clarity around this situation. The Supreme Court of Canada, when they issued the Marshall decision in 1999, the outcry was so big and there was so much pressure from fishermen's associations at that time who were trying to intervene in the case that the Supreme Court of Canada actually issued Marshall II. It's a very rare sort of clarification. It doesn't happen a lot. Right. This came months later, right? Yes. And this is where they came out and said, well, we remember this right can be regulated. You hear that a lot, though, from the commercial protesters and others who say, well, the treaty

right, DFO, the Fisheries and Oceans, can, this is a regulated treaty right. It's regulated, but only if conservation or safety are at stake. And they're not in this case. But I think that's partly why we hear that battle cry so much, right? Like they're going to ruin the lobster stocks and conservation is, you know, reason for a season um right the non-indigenous fishermen are saying because of the supreme court clarification the clarification that essentially said that the federal government could regulate the mcmaw fishery if it was about conservation because of this then then they should go in and regulate this fishery because they're fishing off season. Is that what is happening here?

Yes. So it becomes like a rationale or a logic for why the DFO should be regulating this treaty right. Why the fishery that's happening right now, the rights-based fishery, why they say it shouldn't be taking place, that the Mi'kmaq can't just go out and do it on their own. Like this is from the commercial side. But that clarification, what kind of gets left out is that it can only be regulated for conservation or safety. Like there has to be a reason. And DFO, there has to be consultation. So it can't just be imposed. Right. They have to consult. And that's just part of the Constitution, because this is a constitutional right. It's a Section 35 right. And so you have these martial decisions that come into play. And the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in Canada, because they haven't addressed the treaty right, they really only ask that the NIGMA or their money, they offer money, and they ask that the Mi'kmaq actually quiet their rights and just participate in the commercial fishery that already exists.

And the Mi'kmaq are saying that that is not the rights-based moderate livelihood fishery. It's not the same thing. And so, you know, you take the cash and you quiet your rights, or you assert your rights, and then we see what's happening right now. So in a vacuum of a response from Canada that hasn't come up with a plan on how to deal with treaty rights, this is what we're seeing. So essentially, in the absence of being able to make some sort of framework with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the Mi'kmaq have decided that they're going to open this fishery, that they're going to fish for a moderate livelihood themselves. Yeah.

So the Mi'kmaq, because the Mi'kmaq, you know, have said like the Mi'kmaq is a nation. In a sense, I mean, the Mi'kmaq, I think that the Marshall decision can't be looked at in isolation, right? So the Marshall decision upheld the treaty right. But the other rights in play for the Mi'kmaq as a sovereign nation, right, in unceded Mi'kmaq territory, is that there's a right to self-determination. And so the Mi'kmaq have the right to self-regulate. And so these aren'tkmaq have the right to self-regulate. And so these aren't like unregulated fisheries. They're just not regulated by DFO.

This conflict, it has boiled over so much in the last several weeks. There has been so much violence now. There is so much anger. Is it possible that there even can be a resolution here at this point? You know, I don't know. I don't know. At this point, it's interesting because the Mi'kmaq and Acadians celebrate a very long history, like 400 years of being allies and friends. And because it's generally Acadian communities down there. So when we're talking about these commercial fishermen that are protesting, typically they're coming from Acadian communities.

And so, you know, we have this really long history and now you have this tension and it's like the divide is opening wider. And so it's going to take a lot to sort of bridge that gap. I know that the commercial fishermen have asked for a seat at the negotiation table, but I think maybe there's a lack of understanding that the negotiation table is about treaty rights nation to nation. Certainly, I think, and you saw Chief Mike Sachs say he's open to sitting down and talking to people. And he had a conversation with Joel Comeau, who was the head of the association down there. I don't have a problem with the industry. I just, I know that our plan is vague, but we're trying to narrow it down.

But we can't if gears begin to hold. Why can't we sit at the table without DFO and make, I bet you we'd have a better plan and work better without even DFO or Bernadette even at the table. And then Joel Comeau was getting death threats and he had to step down. And so it's very, it's very volatile um and i don't see

i i honestly i don't have an answer because the migma aren't going anywhere uh one thing i've noticed on the ground is that the migma have told me that they're going to continue to fish that they know that it is their inherent right to fish. So any issues with the DFO and with the Canadian government, they believe that that is not their problem to solve, that the Canadian government and the DFO need to solve the issue with the commercial fishermen. As far as they're concerned, they're going to continue fish and they're not going to stop.

Okay, a really important story that we are going to continue fish and they're not going to stop okay a really important story that um we are going to keep tabs on i thank you both so much for waiting through this with me today angel moore trina roach thank you so much thank you thank you All right, so this story is still evolving. Yesterday, a rally in Halifax brought out hundreds of people in support of the Mi'kmaq fishers. On Sunday evening, NDP leader Jagmeet Singh said he is calling for an emergency debate on Mi'kmaq rights. We'll continue to follow this story as it develops. I'm Jamie Poisson, and thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.