Front Burner - Asylum in Canada explained

Episode Date: December 24, 2018

"Canada doesn't have a refugee crisis. Canada has a crisis of will in terms of what we want to do," says refugee and immigration lawyer Zool Suleman about the influx of people crossing the American border to seek asylum in Canada. The country's budget watchdog has now confirmed the federal cost of asylum seekers making irregular crossings and warned of a growing refugee claimant case backlog. But what does that really mean? Today on Front Burner, we shed light on a confusing system and an issue that's often clouded by rhetoric.

My name is Graham Isidor. I have a progressive eye disease called keratoconus. Unmaying I'm losing my vision has been hard, but explaining it to other people has been harder. Lately, I've been trying to talk about it. Short Sighted is an attempt to explain what vision loss feels like by exploring how it sounds. By sharing my story, we get into all the things you don't see

about hidden disabilities. Short Sighted, from CBC's Personally, available now. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. I was actually afraid to do the crossing between the USA and Canada. I found it like something is not that easy. And at the same time, it was like much easier than was the thing I was thinking about. And I have no other chance.

That's Shu'a'eb Abara. He's a Libyan refugee. He walked across the American border to seek asylum in Canada with his wife and their two young boys. And it's stories like his that have ignited a conversation about immigration and asylum in Canada, the strength of our borders, and the country's capacity to handle a recent influx of refugees. Last week, the Parliamentary Budget Officer confirmed that if left unaddressed, the crisis at our borders will cost taxpayers over $1.1 billion by 2020. And that's not counting the hundreds of millions of dollars incurred by the provinces. Canada's Budget Watchdog has now confirmed the federal cost of asylum seekers making irregular crossings, and they've also

warned of a growing refugee claimant case backlog. This chaos at our borders has already caused lengthy delays in the immigration system. Families waiting to reunite with their loved ones are being forced to wait longer. So, we want to shed some light on a very confusing system and an issue that's clouded by rhetoric. Today, we'll hear from someone who works on the front lines of immigration to get a better sense of what's actually happening in Canada right now. Canada doesn't have a refugee crisis. Canada has a crisis of will in terms of what we want to do.

That's today on FrontBurner. FrontBurner.com Hi, I'm Zul Solomon. I'm a Canadian immigration and refugee lawyer. Hi, Zul. Hello. Thanks so much for joining us today. Very briefly, and I know we could do a whole podcast just on this subject, but how does Canada choose who gets to be an immigrant and who gets to be a refugee. So we set these limits on an annual basis. And the ones we want to come in because, you know, they're smart, they have skills, or they're related to somebody here. For them, we have different kind of categories. And then for refugees, we have a category as well. And there are rules about how you fit into these categories. And what would you need to meet in order to be considered a refugee?

So generally speaking, you're running away from something. You're being persecuted because of your race or your religion or your politics. Or you're in a social group. You're queer or a woman or a pacifist. And there are many kinds of social groups. So you're usually being persecuted. You're feeling in danger. And you're usually being persecuted, you're feeling in danger, and you're leaving your country to try to get to a safe place.

And I also just want to get a sense of the numbers around this. So immigrants, which is skills-based, how are we seeing these numbers change under Justin Trudeau's liberal government? And how are we seeing the numbers around refugee claimants change under Justin Trudeau's liberal government? And how are we seeing the numbers around refugee claimants change under Justin Trudeau's government? So overall, we're taking more immigrants and refugees, and the plan is over the next few years to take more. We have had an ambitious immigration plan that is multi-year,

that allows businesses to grow. So we're going from around 300,000 to around 350,000 immigrants and refugees. And how many of either? So the refugee side tends to be 30,000 or so, but we can only control so much of that, and there are subcategories in there. So we're looking at about 300,000 immigrants a year and about 30,000 refugees. Right. So why have we been seeing this country open its doors more to both immigrants and refugees?

And can you give me a sense of how much more these doors have been opened? Is this like a flood or is it just a bit of a trickle? No, it's not a flood. You know, it's a very orderly process. No, it's not a flood. It's a very orderly process. There are lots of immigration policy people and politicians and the public who are constantly being asked questions about how many immigrants do we need, how much refugee intake should we have. So there are a series of consultations. When Canadians are asking us to provide them with more workers, with more skilled immigrants who can grow our economy, create full-time, good quality, middle-class jobs. But generally speaking, there's a sense that we need more immigrants because our populations are declining, there are big retirements coming up, people like me are getting older,

and we need younger people to come in and take over a lot of this stuff, as well as build the new economy, right? to come in and take over a lot of this stuff, as well as build the new economy, right? So there's a sense that we need new immigrants to revitalize our population base. So we're very choosy about, actually, the immigrants we take. You have to be very skilled. You have to be educated, mostly. You have to be in high-demand jobs. And then there's, of course, family immigration. We want families to be reunited. So that's the bulk of what we do in Canada is focus on those kinds of categories. The refugee side is actually the smallest side of what we do. I want to focus now on the refugee side because that is where a lot of the political rhetoric is happening. Oh, lots and lots.

And so can you give me a sense of why we're seeing more applications for asylum in Canada, people who want to become refugees? Well, what's happening is there's more visibility of people arriving at our border and making irregular refugee claims. For a long, long time, we were not seeing this stuff. You know, people are arriving at airports, people are arriving in other ways. But as our borders have gotten tighter, it's actually very difficult to get to Canada, to get on an airplane to Canada from about two-thirds of the world. And so they find different ways to get to Canada to make refugee claims. And the global context for this is that we're seeing massive amount of migration

the world over. There are conflicts like Syria, for example, where millions of people are being displaced from their homes. I think the UNHCR has estimated that there are well over 65 million people on the move. So we have to put these things in context. In Canada, we're not, I repeat, we're not experiencing a crisis. Canada is extremely hard to get to. We're protected by the Arctic, by two oceans, and a very militarized border in the United States. So we're actually relatively protected. You mentioned before that because it's difficult to get here,

and even difficult to get here by plane, people are coming across the U.S. border. Why are they coming across the U.S. border? Where are they coming in? First of all, there are people who have been living in the United States who no longer feel safe there since the change in government in the United States. Some people refer to them as Trump refugees. We need border security. We have to end the lottery. We have to end the chain. You bring one person in, you end up with 32 people. We have to end these horrible catch-release principles.

The whole thing is ridiculous. So because they're not feeling safe there, because the laws in America are changing, and because they feel they can't go back to where they originally came from, they're trying to find refugee status in Canada. So some of this movement is around what's happening in America. So that's like one group of people. The other group of people who have found a way to arrive in America as visitors or students or workers, and are then deciding that they don't see a future for themselves in America and then are coming to Canada's border

and trying to come in through this irregular route of migration. And who are these people? Can you give me a sense of who the people are? If you look at the numbers, there are people who had a certain level of safety from Haiti, who are now have been making claims in Canada. Nigerians have been making claims in Canada. Central Americans have been making claims in Canada. So these are some of the source countries that you're seeing for people making claims in Canada right now.

And I know, of course, a lot of people will remember that we resettled 40,000 Syrian refugees as part of a government program. Yes, yes. And I think that's true. And that's an example of where the government engages in orderly migration, right? That we decided as a country, we wanted this to happen. And when this new government came in, their Trudeau government, they had promised that they would bring in the Syrian refugees. So that's the kind of refugee migration the government likes, the type they can control.

But when people show up at the border, then the government is reacting to this rather than acting in a planned way. And that's why I think we're seeing more and more controversy around this, because you're seeing the government of Canada scramble, you know, trying to just keep up. Before we get to sort of the political rhetoric around this, can we talk a little bit about how the system is handling this influx of asylum seekers? Oh, it's a long, if you were to look at the chart of it, it looks like an octopus that's on top of another octopus. It's a very complicated chart. But basically, if you can make it to Canadian soil and not at a regular port of entry,

so you're seeing a lot of irregular entry through Quebec, for instance, the Quebec-US border, and through some borders on the prairies and in British Columbia. Then you're on Canadian soil, and under our rules, you're entitled, if you make a refugee claim, to an oral hearing. So you're processed by the Canada Border Services Agency. You're usually fingerprinted, photographed. You go through a security clearance in terms of

checking that you're not a wanted person or any lists, you're asked to go through a medical exam, and then you make a refugee claim. And if the refugee claim meets a minimum threshold from Canada immigration, it doesn't mean you're accepted as a refugee. It means you're allowed to stay here until you have your oral hearing in front of the Immigration and Refugee Board. They give us pets and something to eat, lunch, breakfast and dinner. If I get an asylum in Canada, I'm sure I can change my life very quickly. Canada is a human being country.

That's what I heard, but I will see what is going to happen. So at this point, this person who came in had to deal with the Canada Border Services Agency, probably a provincial police authority or the RCMP. They've then been given over to the immigration department to see if there's any legitimacy to their claim. And if there is, then they're waiting for a hearing in front of a refugee judge. And do we know how long that wait usually takes? Well, under the old government, a series of rules were put in that you would have your hearing

within three or four months. But with the influx, and so we've had in about 30,000 more people than we expected or had budgeted for. And so the decision makers are really swamped right now. So the Refugee Protection Division is hiring more judges. So the time is ballooning. It's heading into the one to two year zone, maybe even into three years before a hearing takes place. Can we talk a little bit about some of the criticisms that I've heard around this? And can we just kind of try and wade through them? So one argument you hear a lot about is that some of these people who are crossing irregularly across the border, as opposed to, for example, going to an airport and making a claim where they could be

rejected on the spot, they're crossing into Canada and using this system when they might not qualify for refugee status. I think there's some truth to that. And the fact that, you know, 50% or more of the new set of claimants have been rejected speaks to that, that at least from the refugee processing point of view, these claims were found to be unmeritorious. But there are many motivations, but certainly the facts would seem to show a large chunk of the claimants are ineligible. But what's fascinating is a large chunk of the claimants are ineligible. But what's fascinating is a large chunk of the claimants are eligible. That's really interesting to hear. So when Andrew Scheer says, that's not fair, it's not right for people to jump the queue like that,

that this is a case of people jumping the queue, what do you say to that? I would say to Andrew Scheer, show me the queue. because I don't know what queue he's referring to. I think, you know, there's politics, obviously, on all sides of this issue. But it's not like there's a little queue at the embassy in New Delhi, or the embassy in Nairobi, or the embassy in, you know, in Paris, or the embassy in Cairo saying, hi, this is the refugee line, can you line up? You know, people are highly discouraged from making claims. It's hard to make a claim. Claims are complicated. And if you make a claim outside the country and actually can get it onto an immigration officer's desk,

it'll take years before they'll be able to look at it. People are encouraged to apply to the UNHCR, to the Red Crescent, to the Red Cross. They end up in refugee camps. And there are then accommodations around how these refugees can kind of live in these countries, but have no status. I want to talk about another criticism that you hear a lot, which is the burden, essentially, that this influx of people is having on our institutions, particularly on our provinces and cities. There are strains within our own federal system and now we're seeing strains on

housing in local municipalities. Mr. Speaker, what I'd like to know from the Prime Minister is what is his plan to deal with the situation? And can you tell me a little bit more about that? Yes they are. They are putting a burden on our services. That's obvious. So the issue isn't, to me at least, that there is, quote-unquote, a burden on our services. The question really is, what type of country do we want? And so then the question is, well, how do we stop irregular migration to Canada?

Well, we could militarize our borders. We could further engage in security measures. And I want to be clear, Canada is one of the world's leaders in how people cannot get to Canada. We have implemented systems that other countries follow. Okay, so we're not slackers in terms of stopping people from getting to Canada. This message really needs to get out. We interdict people. It is exceedingly hard to get to Canadian soil. Can I push back a little bit?

Sure. try and find them housing is problematic in a country that is running its own deficits and has its own social problems that it needs to deal with. We need help. We cannot continue to do this alone. We just don't have the resources to do it alone, and we just don't have the personnel. And so what would you say to that? We are a shockingly rich country. So talking about a billion dollars of expenses, and I use the B word, is shocking to people because they think about their own budgets and their own rent. But Canada is a very rich Western country, and a billion dollars, while a big number, is an exceedingly small number in terms of our overall budget.

Hmm. And some of the statistics say that each asylum seeker who arrives in Canada by an irregular crossing costs the federal government about $14,000 on average. And that doesn't take into account then the cost put on the provincial and municipal governments for things like health care and housing that we were talking about. Refugees don't live in countries. Refugees actually live in cities. And so you have municipal burdens. You have interprovincial burdens. But Canada is a confederation, you know, we've managed to make much larger things work. And so I don't think the challenge is that this is not doable. I think the challenge is that the

optics aren't great. These are not brain surgeons and neuroscientists, largely from European countries walking in with briefcases wanting to go work for multinational corporations. Those kinds of people get work visas, airline tickets, benefit plans, and they arrive at airports. We already do lots of that, but we don't take photos of them and we don't put them on the front page of the newspaper. But when we start to see, in my view, racialized bodies, people who are not necessarily rich, who are scrambling to get into a better way of living, it threatens a lot of Canadians. Now, I want to give some context. I am of South Asian origin, but I was born in Uganda.

context. I am of South Asian origin, but I was born in Uganda. I came here in 1972 as a refugee. So I'm a part of that scrambling horde, except I came in as a regular refugee rather than a irregular refugee. And what's interesting is a lot of these quote-unquote irregular refugees who are found to be legitimately able to stay here. So this is the ones who have a legitimate claim. Actually, over time, when we look at the cohort statistically, over one, two, three generations settle well and do well. I suppose the last question for you today is whether or not you think the current system we have can deal with this. You know, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has certainly received plaudits for the words that he says about being pro-refugee and pro-immigrant.

We are committed to a compassionate asylum system, all the while ensuring that only those who deserve to, who should be in Canada, are allowed to stay. But he's been criticized for not enough follow through on it or for a system that can't handle it. So our prime minister is not shy about virtue signaling and putting his values out there. And there's been this talk about the famous tweet that Canada is open. And no one, no one has ever said to me, I came to Canada because your prime minister tweeted that I could come. So yes, our prime minister likes to send out signals of what he thinks Canada is about and what he stands for. But similarly, opposition does that too,

in terms of what they stand for. But you know, I think this is not a crisis. And I think we can manage this. Zolt, thank you so much. Oh, thank you very much. A couple more points before I let you go. According to the Canadian government, of the roughly 50,000 refugee claims last year, only about a third arrived through irregular crossings. So the majority of asylum seekers arrived in Canada through official points of entry.

We also wanted to know just how much funding the federal government has devoted to helping the provinces. We reached out to Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction, Bill Blair, and got back a statement from his office that says in part that the government has invested $173 million to improve border security and speed up the processing of asylum claims. $11 million has gone to the city of Toronto, $3 million to Manitoba. It also says that the government is working with Quebec to help provide options for longer-term solutions to ensure the orderly management of asylum seekers coming into Quebec. of asylum seekers coming into Quebec.

The statement also notes that Canada has seen a recent decrease in the number of border crossings over the last few months. Happy Christmas Eve. I'm Jamie Poisson, and thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger.

The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay girl gone. Available now.