Front Burner - “Bamboo ballots”, UV light and a bizarre election recount in Arizona

Episode Date: May 14, 2021

How do a treasure hunter, claims of bamboo fibres in ballots and QAnon-related conspiracies all come into play in the official “audit” of the 2020 U.S. election currently underway in Maricopa County, Ariz.? The Daily Beast’s politics reporter Will Sommer explains.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a story that involves a treasure hunter, allegations of bamboo-laced ballots, and QAnon. It's been more than six months since Joe Biden won the 2020 U.S. presidential election. since Joe Biden won the 2020 U.S. presidential election. But efforts to call the results into question,

to uncover some imaginary fraud that benefited Biden over Trump, they still persist. At least in one big Arizona county, where a so-called audit, like a hand recount of more than 2 million ballots, is currently underway. I'm Jamie Poisson, and today, Daily Beast politics reporter Will Sommer is here to explain just how bizarre and biased this audit appears to be. Hi, Will. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast and for taking me through this,

let's go with colorful, very colorful story. No, absolutely. Thanks for having me. So first of all, just simply, what is this audit in Maricopa County? Sure. So what's going on here is that this is the, basically the state Senate Republicans in Arizona have decided that they want to inspect the ballots in Maricopa County, which is, you know, believed to be the Democratic-leaning part of the state. There's about 2 million ballots at play here. You know, what's happening is that Joe Biden won Arizona, and a lot of Republicans, especially, were surprised by that, because that's typically a Republican state. And in response, basically, Republicans made these baseless claims of election fraud. But

already we've seen, I mean, there have been previous attempts to look at the ballots, response, basically, Republicans made these baseless claims of election fraud. But already, we've seen, I mean, there have been previous attempts to look at the ballots, there have been sort of spot inspections that did not find any evidence of fraud. But so Republican lawmakers and activists in the state have been kind of insisting on a recount or a ballot inspection done exactly to their terms. And so that's now sort of after a couple court battles, that's what's taking place. We have to do everything we can to protect the sanctity of the ballot box. You know, we're never gonna get 100 people,

100% of the people to agree on who should win the election, but we should have as close as possible to 100% of the people who have confidence that the election process was done with integrity. And that's what we're here to do. Okay, so I was hoping that you could tell me a bit about the company that's been hired to quarterback this latest audit. They're called Cyber Ninjas. Right. I mean, it's a name that doesn't sort of exactly inspire much confidence. I mean, this is the question of who recounts the ballots is obviously a huge one.

And there are a lot of reputable companies that, you know, they could choose. But I think what's happened in the past is that when Republicans choose these companies that actually have experience with ballots and that kind of stuff, they end up not getting the result they want, which is they don't find ballot fraud. want, which is they don't find ballot fraud. So this time, the Senate Republicans in Arizona, they chose this company called Cyber Ninjas, which is this really little known firm. And pretty much as soon as they were chosen, it turned out that they had like a lot of, I guess, sort of unusual ties. The founder of the firm had posted about the QAnon conspiracy theory positively. So, you know, it's just a little unclear, you know, if these were really reliable people to trust with, you know, over 2 million ballots. Right, right. And you mentioned the founder of that firm, that's a guy named Doug Logan. And I know, I was listening to

him the other day, he says he's just taking part in this because he just wants a transparent audit to get everyone on the same page. We want a transparent audit to be in place so that people can trust that the results so we can get everyone on the same page. We want a transparent audit to be in place so that people can trust the results, so we can get everyone on the same page. If we go through here and we don't find any fraud, I'm going to be ecstatic. Yeah. Okay? I'm going to love that.

And I want to be able to tell people that. If we go through here and we find fraud, I want to fix it so that our country and democracy works. I know you guys want to pay. But of course, that's a little difficult to take at face value when there have already been two independent audits done, as you mentioned, that found no evidence of fraud. Is it clear that this company has any experience with election fraud auditing? No, I mean, not really.

I mean, they're pretty much unknown in this field. You know, and in terms of that concept, I mean, these people who are looking at the audits always say, well, we just want to assure the voters that, you know, the elections are safe and that they're reliable. I mean, we're just about the ballot integrity. But, you know, they just ask it over and over and over. And there's no, like, line of, OK, we're going to be satisfied with this. over and there's no like line of, okay, we're going to be satisfied with this. I mean, I think what's going on is that they're really just looking for some kind of shred of thing that they can manipulate into looking like voter fraud. Will, when you say that Doug Logan has tweeted QAnon-related stuff, what are you talking about here?

Sure. I mean, he's posted QAnon-related conspiracy theories that the election was stolen. He's interacted on Twitter with this guy named Ron Watkins, who has been accused of being sort of behind QAnon and playing a major role in that. So, I mean, this is a guy who really has his ties into a lot of fringe conspiracy theories, including QAnon. And so it's sort of hard to believe that he's really coming to this with an open mind and just looking to find out what happened. Otherwise, who would be stupid enough to walk into this?

Every individual that walks into any election integrity thing gets butchered by everybody. I mean, seriously, I care about this country and that's why I'm here and doing this. And, you know, we're seeing this kind of QAnon influence play out in the audit. The inspectors are scanning ballots with UV lights, which is meant to uncover whether the ballots have secret watermarks. And this dates back to, yeah, this dates back now to, you know, right after the election when QAnon people became convinced that the ballots had watermarks, the legitimate ballots had watermarks, which was basically an attempt to sort of a Donald Trump plan to catch Joe Biden in the deep state, stealing the election. And so, you know, they're looking for these fictitious watermarks.

The county elections department assures us that there aren't any watermarks on the ballot. So if there aren't any watermarks on the ballot, they won't find any watermarks on the ballot. But that was part of their procedures that they decided to use. Huh. And speaking of the examination of these ballots, I understand there's another controversial character involved here, a man named Jovan Pulitzer. And who is he and what's his involvement in the ballot counting? Right. I mean, so yeah, Jovan Pulitzer is certainly like a colorful character, I would say. You know, maybe the most colorful in the scene that's attracted a lot of them. Jovan is an inventor. He kind of was a character in the dot-'s attracted a lot of them. Javon is an inventor.

He kind of was a character in the dot-com boom. He invented this cat-shaped scanner. What if there was a way to manage this incredible information overload? A way to give us just the knowledge, facts, and news we want instantly and, most important, simply? Well, the answer is right here. It's called QCAT and CRQ technology. All this magic from a company called...

That people could use and was, you know, sort of widely considered a flop. I think, you know, this tech magazine called it one of the 25 worst inventions of the tech age. I saw this. People were just asking, like, I guess the invention scans barcodes and then would take you to an Internet site. And people were like, well, why wouldn't you just type in the site? Right, right. And so the thing I should note here is that Jovan did not, he was not going by the name Jovan Pulitzer at the time. And so his birth name is Jovan Filia. But after the QCAT, you know, was widely seen as a failure, he changed his name to Jovan Pulitzer.

And so he reemerges a couple years ago as a treasure hunter or as what he calls himself the commander of treasure force. And so he actually has – there's a Canada connection here, which is he was on this History Channel show about this island that was seen as sort of like haunted or that there was a lot of treasure there. And he claimed he had found this ancient Roman sword on the island, which would, you know, imply that Romans had visited Canada long ago. But, you know, this claim has been really widely disputed by experts in anthropology. You know, they did some testing on the sword and found that that was really, you know, in their opinion, was not the case. Right, right.

And also, he literally thought the Ark of the Covenant was in Nova Scotia, I believe. The Ark of the Covenant? The gold chest, which according to the Old Testament, contained the actual Ten Commandments? Here is what we believe. There is an ancient legend about an ancient mariner society traveling from the Holy Land to Nova Scotia. So how is this guy related to the

ballot? Sure. So I mean, obviously, this is a guy who kind of goes through a lot of a lot of career inventions. And so most recently, shortly after the election, he emerged as sort of this like internet folk hero for Trump supporters. He claimed he had this technology called kinematic scanning, which effectively boils down to seeing whether a paper has been folded enough. The implication being that mail-in ballots that are fake, he claims, or sort of is implied by his research, wouldn't have enough folds. And so you can tell whether a ballot is legitimate or fake based on the number of folds. But this is really, when I asked him about whether this technology that he's invented had been used before in inspections or audits, he became very heated and claimed he couldn't

provide me any examples because it's all top secret, that kind of stuff. I think it's sort of working out to be, I mean, his own role in this audit, he's very vague about that. But, you know, it's shaking out to be a situation where, you know, whatever, you know, if they start talking about the folds, you know, I think it's gonna be hard for people to dispute it because this is really like a whole new thing. I mean, the Secretary of State in Arizona has said this whole thing is a waste of time. So so there's another perspective on it.

We have so many concerns about this exercise. I kind of don't want to call it an audit. I think that's an insult to professional auditors everywhere because they're making this step up as they go along. You mentioned the UV lights looking for watermarks. I also heard they're looking for traces up as they go along. You mentioned the UV lights looking for water marks. I also heard they're looking for traces of bamboo in the ballots. So can you tell me briefly what that is, what that's about? Yeah, I mean, this is this is sort of a sign of just how bizarre and sort of shambolic this entire process has been. And it's being live streamed on this conservative cable channel here in the U.S.

But there were really no explanations. I mean, reporters were barred from going inside for a while. And there was no sort of like, OK, here's the process moment. And so people were kind of trying to glean it. And then, you know, why are they using the UV light? You know, what's with the folds? So really, this stuff is sort of just dribbled out with remarks made by random officials involved in it. And this most recent one was someone said, yeah, they're looking for bamboo fibers to see whether they're made in China. And this actually, this dates back to, there's this idea in Arizona among in sort of this far

right activist world, that the ballots were imported from China or Korea, or South Korea. And this is just like a totally nutty idea that someone basically, if you can believe this, I mean, someone at the, I think the Phoenix airport, they saw a Korean airline flight. And it was sort of someone said, oh, I wonder if, you know, this is just carting in a bunch of ballots. And so this idea sort of took off and it became like, you know, people were tracking this flight and all this stuff. And so then Jovan said, well, maybe there would be these fibers. Well, did you know from a forensic level that you can tell absolutely the difference between paper here in the United States or paper that was made in China? And now, you know, we're seeing that play out in real time. Right. It's so wild to think that this idea has somehow made its way

all the way to this, you know, official recount. Yeah. I mean, it is truly bizarre, right? I mean, this is not just like a forum where people are internet forum where people are going crazy or, you know, even like some protesters outside. I mean, this has the imprimatur of the state Senate of Arizona. And these are genuine ballots. I mean, these are the imprimatur of the state senate of Arizona. And these are genuine ballots. I mean, these are not like Xeroxes of the ballots. I mean, people are, this is an official recount. And it's just, you know, it seemingly is being run in just this like bizarre ad hoc way where, you know, someone cooks up an idea and they say, well, you know, let's inspect them for that. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. ZGEM, brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing.

In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Who's paying for all of this, Will? Right. Yeah, I mean, this is actually like a very, you know, I keep saying we don't know. And you might say, wow, it's a recount. People should probably know this. And I would agree. I mean, it's very hazy how this is being funded. I believe MyPillow baron Mike Lindell, who's sort of a pillow salesman, a pillow tycoon, has put some money into it.

Dominion, we have machines now. I do. I have machines. We have ES&S machines. We got them all. And we're going to be putting out so much information over the next couple of weeks. And not this isn't from Arizona, Steve. These are machines we actually have. And we're doing one American news, which is this pro Trump cable network that's been filming the audit. One of their hosts has been raising money for it. I mean, again, I mean, this is kind of a small issue,

but typically, you know, journalists aren't supposed to be raising money to fund ballot audits. Talking about the process, because it doesn't matter who paid for it. It doesn't matter who paid for it. Why should people trust the outcome? Is this even legal? I guess I guess I'm wondering what I'm wondering here is like this is a Senate sanctioned process.

These are ballots cast in a in a presidential election. Like, why is it even possible for this sort of ragtag group of people to to even get this close to the ballots and be able to do this? Yeah, I mean, it's a total mess. I mean, the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, who are sort of like the city council, they really fought this really hard, as did the Secretary of State in Arizona. And in terms of whether it's legal, I mean, we'll see, because the Department of Justice in the U.S. has sent them a letter that said, hey, you know, it kind of sounds like this is a mess. You know, you might want to shape up here. And so, you know, depending on how this goes, you know, potentially that sort of implies there could be some action coming from them. You know, and additionally, the whole thing is just being put together on the fly.

You know, I mean, the whole thing is just being put together on the fly. So one plan was that they were going to sort of inspect the legitimacy of the ballots by going to voters' homes, which is obviously voter intimidation. And so after the Justice Department weighed in on that, they said, oh, you know, maybe we're going to throw that out. But I mean, this whole thing is just, I mean, it's just really bizarre. Okay, I thought that they were supposed to be finished this recount today, Friday, but they aren't. And so what's the next? What are the next steps here? You know, I mean, it looks like it's just gonna blow through the deadlines. I mean, people are talking about sometime in June now. I mean, yeah, I mean, it looks like it's just going to blow through the deadlines. I mean, people are talking about sometime in June now. I mean, yeah, I mean, I do think it's because it's this kind of half-baked process. In the past, the more legitimate ballot audits were they would do a sample because 2 million ballots is a whole lot of ballots to go through.

And so they would sort of select a sample and see if there were any problems there. They didn't find them. So, I mean, this thing really looks like it could just keep dragging on. I guess my next question is, what do they think might actually happen now, though? Because, you know, as you mentioned, there are tons of people, even in Arizona, who think this is a complete joke. The results were certified by the Republican governor in Arizona. Joe Biden is the president. So what is the potential outcome here? Right. So, you know, there's different groups supporting this that are hoping for different things. On one hand, you have kind of hardcore people like, you know, the MyPillow founder, Mike Lindell, and his supporters who have claimed that Trump will be back in the White House sometime this summer.

They think that this audit, basically, they're convinced that this will find so many things wrong that then not only will the Arizona results be overturned, but then every other battleground state will inspect their ballots and this widespread fraud will become clear. I think the more realistic people, the Republicans who ordered this audit in the state Senate, for example, I think that they're generally looking to sort of this audit in the state Senate, for example, I think that they're generally looking to sort of cast doubt on the election results, both to, you know, damage Joe Biden's legitimacy, and also to, you know, lay the groundwork for future restrictions on voting.

You know, if you can say, through whatever cooked up math you have that, you know, X percentage of mail-in ballots were fraudulent, then, you know, you can use that to build up for more restrictions on mail-in voting, for example. Has Donald Trump weighed in on this recount? I wouldn't be surprised if they found thousands and thousands and thousands of votes. So we're going to watch that very closely. And after that, you'll watch Pennsylvania and you'll watch Georgia and you're going to watch Michigan and Wisconsin and you're watching New Hampshire. They found a lot of votes up in New Hampshire just now. You saw that?

Because this was a rigged election. Everybody knows it. Oh, yeah. I mean, Trump loves this stuff. I mean, this is, so Trump has said, or, you know, he's posted, he has this new blog type thing because he's been banned from Twitter. He's said that, you know, he's posted he has this new blog type thing because he's been banned from Twitter. He's said that, you know, he's very supportive of Arizona. He's supportive of this other recount that's happening in New Hampshire,

which, you know, Trump supporters have become fixated on. And just generally, there's this idea that, you know, he's very much just promoting this idea that he did ever since he lost the election, that the race was stolen. You know, this is an illegitimate Biden administration. You know, Will, final question today. I know we've been laughing about the sort of absurdity of all of this, but what does it say to you that this has gotten this far, this official audit?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really disturbing. I mean, I think it's just another. I mean, I think it's just another sign of this sort of unreality that's seeping its way into American politics and particularly into the Republican Party, that they sort of have to, you know, either that Republican politicians are either willing to court these groups or, or allow them in, or, you know, in some cases, I think they do actively believe in this stuff. This idea that, okay, we're gonna look for the bamboo fibers. I mean, it's just, it's surreal. But at the same time, I think it's kind of a hole at the heart right now of American democracy, which is that, you know, roughly half of the people involved in it, you know, refuse to see

any election they don't win as legitimate. And so they're willing to resort to these sort of super comical things in some ways. But of course, it's, you know, it's funny up until, you know, they claim they overturned an election because they found bamboo fibers, you know, supposedly or something like that. Right. Right. Okay. Well, Summer, thank you so much for this. Thanks for having me. All right, so before we go, on another note, yesterday, ethics watchdog Mario Dion released the results of his investigations into the We Charity scandal. He found that former finance minister Bill Morneau violated the Conflict of Interest Act by failing to recuse himself from

cabinet deliberations on awarding a multi-million dollar summer student grants contract to WE Charity. This despite his relationship with Craig Kielberger, the group's co-founder. But the watchdog cleared Justin Trudeau in his third ethics investigation into the prime minister, finding, quote, although the connection between Mr. Trudeau's relatives and WE created the appearance of a conflict of interest, the appearance of conflict is insufficient to cause a contravention of the Act's substantive rules. Trudeau has been found to have violated ethics rules twice previously. First in 2017 in relation to accepting a vacation to the Aga Khan's private island,

and again in 2019 when Commissioner Dion had found that Trudeau had tried to influence then-Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould over a deferred prosecution agreement with SNC-Lavalin. All right, that is all for this week. Front Burner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, and Ali Janes. Our sound design was by Derek Vanderwyk and Mackenzie Cameron. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound.

The executive producer of Front Burner is Nick McKay-Blocos. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you all on Monday. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.