Front Burner - Bans and blowback: Assessing the Liberals' gun bill

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

In the weeks following the 2020 killings of 22 people in Portapique, Nova Scotia — the deadliest shooting rampage in Canadian history — the federal government began introducing steps to limit the types of guns people can own and use. There were orders in council, which began with a list of more than 1,500 firearms, before more were added, and later a piece of proposed gun control legislation, Bill C-21. That bill had two readings in the House of Commons, before a major 478-page amendment was added. The changes have drawn more criticism to what was already a contentious bill, as some question whether it’s too broad and will affect too many types of guns. On today’s episode, we’re joined by Kieran Oudshoorn, a producer with CBC’s audio documentary unit, to walk through Liberal government’s plans for gun control.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Back in 2020, in the wake of the Portapique murders in Nova Scotia, the deadliest shooting rampage in Canadian history, there was broad support for increased gun control in this country.

Enter the Liberals. Here's Bill Blair. At the time, he was Minister of Public Safety. For decades, chiefs of police, advocacy groups, grieving families, everyday Canadians have been calling for a ban of these types of firearms. Guns that were designed for soldiers to kill other soldiers and not for recreational purposes. Guns that belong on a battlefield and not on our streets. Guns that were designed to kill people. They were intended in their purpose to kill people and they have been used in Canada to kill innocent people. Today, as

the Prime Minister has said, we are announcing an immediate ban on over 1,500 models of assault-style firearms and effective immediately. These newly banned firearms cannot be legally used, sold, or imported in our country. Bill Blair wasn't introducing legislation in Parliament there, just a regulatory ban on certain firearms called an order in council. But this was part of the groundwork the federal government has been laying in the buildup to Bill C-21, which is now trying to pass and make law. Well, despite the broad support the government had to move on this nearly three years ago, this bill has managed to gain opposition from a lot of people, including some pretty surprising players from Indigenous hunters to the NDP, the Toronto Star's editorial board, liberal backbenchers. To walk us through it, I'm joined today by Kieran Oudshorn. He's a CBC documentary producer.

Hi, Kieran. It's great to have you back on FrontBurner. Hey, Jamie. It's great to be here. So, of course, I know the Liberals campaigned and talked about it well before 2020, right? But I think it's fair to say that their efforts to take on gun control really start moving that year in 2020. They introduced this regulatory ban that includes 1,500 models and variants of what the government considers assault-style rifles. And so talk to me about this initial ban. Right. So this initial ban, as you described it in an intro, is called an order in council. And what it is, is it took this 1,500 different models and moved them from

being either unrestricted or restricted and made them prohibited. And the most famous one in this is the AR-15. That was included in that. And part of making these guns prohibited as part of that order in council was they promised to say, you know, we're going to do a buyback. So we're going to go out there. We're going to take all the guns. We're going to pay people a fair market value and buy them back. But that hasn't happened yet, which means that we now have hundreds of thousands of

guns that are technically illegal. You can't take them out. You can't shoot them. You can't take them to the range. You can't use them at all. But there hasn't been any process to take them back. So they're just sitting in people's lockers and people are waiting to see what's going to happen next with them. Okay.

So we've got this initial ban, this ordering cancel. And then I remember in 2022, they introduce this bill called Bill C-21, right? And what is in that bill? Right. So Bill C-21 is a relatively complex piece of legislation and it's trying to do a number of different things. So it's looking at introducing some new red flag laws. These are laws that contemporarily allow officials to take firearms away from individuals if they're having like a mental health emergency or something. The law was also looking to ban a number of replica and airsoft guns that they thought were dangerous. It's also trying to increase penalties for people who traffic guns, bring them across the border.

And the main sort of focus, one of the big elements of Bill C-21 and when it was originally introduced was to look at handguns and try to follow through on putting a freeze on some of the transfers and increase restrictions on handguns. And actually, since the bill was introduced last year, there actually was another order in council, this happened in October, where they did put in a freeze on handguns. So unlike that first one where guns were prohibited, you can still own a handgun, still can take it and go and shoot it, but you just can't buy one, sell one, or transfer one unless you have an exemption. Right. So it's fair for me to say that what we're talking about here are building blocks, essentially, that the liberal government is putting in place as part of its broader plan to

further restrict guns in this country. Ever tightening restrictions. Right, right. So this bill, Bill C-21, is making its way through the government. And then this fall, this amendment drops. And I guess depending on who you ask, it drops out of nowhere. It's 500 pages.

And this is where things seem to really start to go sideways, right? Yeah. And tell me about what happens now. Okay. So this amendment, as you described, nearly 500 pages long. And what it does is it's looking to take a much broader swath of firearms and move them again from either being unrestricted or restricted and making them prohibited. Now, this is focused mostly on long guns and the way in which a gun can end up on this ban list. There's a couple different ways

that that can happen. So the first way is that this amendment puts forward what they're calling an evergreen definition for what they call assault style rifles. And what that boils down to is essentially all semi-automatic firearms that have a detachable magazine that can carry more than five cartridges. A semi-automatic is essentially a gun where when you pull the trigger, a new round is put into the chamber without you having to do a separate action. So if you think like a pump action shotgun, that's where you have to pump it. So you wouldn't, don't have to do anything like that with the semi-automatic. And so if you're thinking, well, wait, that sounds like most modern firearms operate like that. Well, that's right. And that's why I think a lot of

people are concerned about this. So that's one way the guns can end up on the list if they meet that definition, that evergreen definition. Another way is they looked at the power of the firearm. So the amount of energy that comes from the muzzle when the firearm is shot or the size of the actual barrel. But one of the problems with that is that the firearms that get caught in that sort of wide sweep include a lot of antiques, blunderbusters, muskets, things like that can get caught up in that as well. So there's some concerns there. The final way that guns can end up on this list, according to this amendment, is if they're simply put there. The government can add specific models based off name, even if they don't fall into the first two categories that we walk through.

And there are some guns that fall into that category. Whatever they decide to put on the list, essentially. And so we're talking about more guns than the guns that were banned in 2020. Yeah. Right. That's right. This is an expanding list. That's right.

So the list that we had in 2020 was 1,500. This amendment would potentially capture a lot more. So I remember in 2020, there were gun owners who were absolutely angry about these bans. Yeah, still are. Yes, and are still angry. But this has obviously ticked a lot more people off. And so I want to talk about some of those groups and why. And maybe we can start first with hunters.

We heard some criticisms from groups like the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters. And here's our policy and programming director, Matt DeMille. I just want to play you this clip. Whenever a government jumps to a ban that you, especially when it's introduced at the committee stage, so late in the parliamentary process, there's not opportunity for good dialogue. This is something that was introduced, you know, and really talked about handguns and other things that are unrelated to hunting in this country. And I think ultimately, you know, we as an organization and as a hunting community don't believe that banning firearms like semi-automatics with detachable magazines

is a prudent move to achieve the kind of public policy that we need to curb gun violence and deal with the public safety issues that are a reality in many communities across this country. And he's pretty focused on what sorts of guns practically hunters use. And is that basically what we're do that are a lot of the firearms that are covered in this. And I can tell you just from my own reporting, whether it was in northern BC walking trap lines with Talltan or, you know, in Nunavut when we're hunting seal with Inuit, these types of rifles, semi-automatic rifles with a detachable clip are often what people are using when they are out hunting.

And in fact, even some of the more powerful rifles I've seen used as well. I got to cover some beluga hunting and after they harpooned the whale, they shot it and killed it with a high powered rifle. And in Iqaluit a few years ago, there was a hunt for a bowhead whale, a much, much larger whale where they also had to shoot it with a high-powered rifle. And so, you know, there may be exceptions that are made for these types of specific situations, but there are good examples where a lot of these firearms that you wouldn't necessarily think have some practical application or use in Canada are actually being

used in some of these scenarios. Yeah, that's really interesting to hear. I've also heard the argument that these guns are used for self-defense in rural and northern Canada and people need protection. So maybe police can take longer to get to a house if there's a call or conflicts with dangerous animals, right? You come across a bear, even like a polar bear or something. Yeah. So in the reporting that I've done, the conversation around self-defense or the using that as a reason isn't something that came up a whole lot. People didn't really talk about self-defense, at least from other humans. I think that it is, there is a real concern when it comes to wildlife, whether it's polar bears, moose, bears, you know, like different things like that. I think that it is somewhat reasonable that people do talk about that, but generally,

yeah, I haven't heard a whole lot of people using self-defense against other humans, although that is a common, you know, line in the states. And given the fact that we have seen all of this protest, you know, including from indigenous groups, has the federal government shown any willingness to adjust this bill to accommodate hunters? Worth mentioning here, like the NDP has said that they think that this goes too far and have come out in support of hunters. Worth mentioning here, like the NDP has said that they think that this goes too far and have come out in support of hunters. Yeah. Well, following all this pushback in November, I think the liberals have been taking it quite seriously, trying to listen to people. Marco Mendocino, who's the public safety minister now, has come out saying that they're listening to stakeholders as they continue to go through the consultation process before they go to third

reading. So I would expect that there are going to be some changes, maybe some carve-outs that are made for hunters. Hard to say exactly what will come, but that is what's being indicated by a lot of the political establishment at this point. Now I want to get to the other big group this bill will affect. That's recreational sports shooters, right? I actually saw earlier this week, conservative leader Pierre Paglia posted this video where he's standing with this group called the International Practical Shooting Confederation. Everybody, I want you to meet the people that Justin Trudeau says are the most dangerous in all of the land. This is the International Practical Shooting Federation. They are experts on professional use of firearms.

And we have here, for example, Joy. You're a national champion, aren't you? Yes, I am. Justin Trudeau says you're a very dangerous person. Are you dangerous? I'm not dangerous. Oh, thank God. You had me nervous there for a second.

And Kieran, first off, this group of recreational sport shooters, like who are we talking about here? Describe them for me and how big are they in this country? Yeah, well, I mean, something to think about here is that guns are really quite, there's a lot of them in Canada. They're pretty common. In fact, I think a lot of Canadians, especially people like know, people like you and I who live in cities might be surprised by some of the statistics here, but the department of justice says that a full 25% of households

across Canada have a firearm in it, which is kind of my mom. That's one in four. Um, so that's pretty wild. And the majority of these guns are being used recreationally or are being used in sports shooting. Um, and that recreational side of, And that recreational side of shooting is actually a large part of the economy around guns as well. I talked to some business owners. They said that as much as 60% of their business actually comes from the sports shooting, the recreational side. And their businesses were really impacted by that order in council in 2020. And their businesses were really impacted by that order in council in 2020. And the people I talked to are worried that this Bill C-21 is just going to be the last straw for their businesses.

What are the main concerns you're hearing from people who use guns for recreational or competitive shooting? Yeah. So target shooting is an internationally recognized sport. It's an Olympic sport. And there are a lot of people in Canada who participate in it, although it has become harder and harder to do that over the past three years. And I spoke to a number of people who do shoot competitively, including Amanda Fisher. And I think her story is particularly interesting. She is a woman who grew up in Nova Scotia in a relatively urban setting. And for the first two thirds of her life, she tells me that she was

scared of guns. She didn't want them in her house. Didn't think that they had any practical use. But then nine years ago, she moved to Alberta, got married. Her husband was a hunter and there was a firearm in the house. And she tells me that she wanted to feel safe around it. She wanted to feel like she could handle it if needed. And that's why she ended up going out and getting her license. So I did get my firearms license in 2015. And then a coworker, a friend of mine, took me to the range to shoot my first handgun. So I was in my 30s when I shot my first handgun.

And it was empowering. It was exhilarating. It just, it felt amazing. And I just, I wanted to find that rush again. So I went out and I bought my very first pistol a month later. So seven years later, Amanda is now a competitive pistol shooter. She's ranked number one in Alberta and number two Canada wide. And her two sons, they're actually in the sport as well. In fact, her entire family has really made sports shooting a big part of their life. And they've spent upwards of $100,000 on their hobby. They've

invested thousands of hours to get to this elite level. And Amanda, she really credits overcoming her fear about guns as a major stepping stone that allowed her to build self-confidence and grow as a person. How would she be affected by the moves that the liberal government is making here, Bill C-21, but also these ordering councils? So Amanda is really concerned that sports shooting is just going to continue to wither away the way that it's going right now. And the OIC, that's the ordering council in 2020, that had a major impact on the sports shooting world. It made it illegal to use a lot of the most popular rifles that were used in that sort of arena. And now this more recent order in council, this is the one that happened in October that froze the transfer of handguns. That makes it really difficult for Amanda to get access to what she calls her sporting equipment.

These are the handguns that she shoots with. In fact, she says, you know, if her handguns break down, she's worried, how am I going to possibly get replacements for it? And it also creates barriers for her children to potentially follow her into the sport. to continue on with the sport. But the individuals that currently do not have a handgun that want to shoot my sport, they won't be able to shoot my sport because they cannot acquire the sporting equipment that they need to be. It'd be like somebody wants to go into tennis

but they can no longer get a tennis racket. Well, guess what? No tennis for you. So it's the same thing. So the sport is same thing. So the sport is going to die in the country. And that's quite unfortunate. It's an internationally recognized sport. I mean, I hear this clip. If I could push back on the tennis racket comparison a bit, though, I think people might hear that and think that they've never probably heard of anyone

getting killed by a tennis racket. Right. And I think it's worth mentioning here that just this week we saw two mass shootings in California. These weapons, they are not tennis rackets, right? Yeah, I think that you've really struck at the crux of the issue here. You know, for those who don't use gun, they see these as weapons that are built really with no other purpose than to maim and to kill. Well, on the other hand, people who use firearms all the time, they see them as tools, they see them as sports equipment, and they see them as things that they use daily. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection.

Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income?

That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. For those who see these weapons as machines that do maim and kill, I'm talking about gun control advocates here who really want to see a tough approach from the government. What do they make of all of this right now? So the organizations I spoke to are broadly in support of Bill C-21.

They're happy with the direction it's going and what it's doing. I spoke with Heidi Rothgen. She's part of a group called Polly Remembers. They're a large gun control advocacy group and the approach the or the take that they have is that allowing these types of firearms like the ones that are laid out outlined in this bill allowing those to be accessed by the public is just too dangerous she says when you have these types of weapons they can kill multiple people very quickly that it's just a matter of time until someone ends up doing that. And the lives that are lost when that happens, those,

those can't ever be reclaimed. You know, we're a group that have been advocating for a number of measures for gun control, but our number one measure, the one that was the subject of the petition of the students of pretty picnic on which we worked. I was there at the time is banning assault weapons. So, you know, our fight will end when we finally get a complete and permanent ban on assault weapons in Canada.

We talked about all the backlash to this bill earlier. I wonder what Heidi's response to some of the criticism has been, even the fact that, you know that we mentioned the NDP is supporting indigenous hunters. The editorial board at the liberal-leaning Toronto Star thinks that the government has screwed up the rollout of this bill. Liberal backbenchers like Liberal MP from the Yukon says that he can't support this generally because he thinks that it's ensnared too many guns that hunters use. Is Heidi open to some of those arguments that we might be catching too many guns here? Yeah. So I think that broadly, all sides seem to agree that the communication around specifically this amendment on C-21 really did not roll out well. It just added to a lot of the confusion and left a lot of space for people to be making arguments on all sides that maybe aren't really grounded. Yeah. It's hard to get that group together in opposition of gun control, to be fair.

It's a big coalition. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And interestingly, you know, even Heidi in the conversation that I was having with her, even though she is a very, very strong advocate for gun control, she said, you know, there may need to be some changes that are made to the law as it stands right now to accommodate the reasonable use by hunters of firearms. So she was even saying that that is possible. need to be some changes that are made to the law as it stands right now to accommodate the

reasonable use by hunters of firearms. So she was even saying that that is possible. Okay, so now I want to talk to you about how this plan might actually be put into action, right? We talked about the buyback plan and how is it meant to work if it ever gets running? Yeah. Well, I think this is a great question and I'm really happy that we're getting to this because, first off, we don't have a whole lot of details. I mean, I've asked for it and I asked the government if they could give me an update on sort of what the plan is, not just on what the plan is going forward, but what they've been talking about for the past three years. And they've given me nothing. I mean, like one paragraph in an email and that was it, which I think is a little bit

surprising. And the buyback is so important because, you know, we can have this debate. We can discuss whether or not the merits of banning a gun or not banning a gun and what makes sense there. And so if you're going to ban them, like, how are you going to gather them? How are you going to find them? How are you going to collect them? How are you going to dispose of them? And that's a really open question at this point. And the logistics of that whole process are really mind boggling at this point. Now, there was some documentation that came out earlier last year

that from the government that showed that they were going to try to do a pilot project of the buyback in Prince Edward Island, starting with the smallest province first. But following up on that, it does not seem that that started. That was supposed to be happening in December with potentially the buyback actually happening across Canada in spring. But when we followed up and checked in on that, it doesn't seem like anything's moving forward. And when we've asked for more details, we're told by the government that they'll share details when they have them. Now, all of this is on a clock because there's the amnesty.

So when you look at that order in council that came in 2020, all those guns that were made prohibited, that are still sitting in people's lockers, those can't go anywhere. And after the amnesty is over, those can't go anywhere. And after the amnesty is over, those will be illegal to have. And that amnesty is set to run out in October this year. Right. So they either got to figure out the buyback or they need to extend the amnesty. Right. Do we have any sense of what a program at this scale could cost?

A little bit, yes, a little bit, no. So there was a report that came out in 2021 from the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, and that took a look at potentially what a buyback would cost. And their estimates were focused solely, though, on the value of buying back the guns at a fair market value. So it didn't look at the administration of a program like that at all. When they were looking at that, they took estimates of how many guns were out there from a couple different sources, and the estimates really varied. So the outcome that this report came to was that just to buy the guns back was going to cost between $47 million and $750 million, which is a very widespread if you look at it. And remember here that this was just the guns that were in the 2020 order in council.

If the Bill C-21 moves forward with the amendment as proposed, that's a wider selection of guns. So it's reasonable to think that there's going to be more guns that they would have to buy back. It's reasonable to think that that would cost more. Then we think about, okay, how much is it going to cost to administer a program like this? Well, we don't have any specific numbers on that.

But if you look to other jurisdictions like New Zealand that did a gun buyback, what I'm told by experts is that often it costs two to three times more than just the cost of the guns to do the actual program itself. So, you know, at this point, although we don't have hard numbers, we're likely looking at multiples of billions of dollars to execute a program like this across the country. Right. And probably worth mentioning here, of course, the cost of a program like this. I know it raises questions about whether it's the best use of that money, right? Because part of this debate centers around where guns used in crimes actually come from, whether they're illegal,

as they were in the case of the Portapix shooting, right? Some of those guns were smuggled in from the United States. Yeah. Broadly speaking, it's really tough to come to any conclusive statements about whether or not guns that are used in crime are illegal guns or illegal guns. That data is just not gathered in a comprehensive way. But yes, there is this question about what are we spending this money on? And that's the argument that is made by people who are advocates for guns. They say, rather than spending billions of dollars to take guns away from legal gun owners, why aren't we spending that money to stop trafficking, to smuggling of guns, to deal with all these different crime issues? Yeah. And of course, advocates say you have to do it all. We talked about the administering of the program.

And so who is going to actually do that? Yeah, another great question without a clear answer. So you might assume that maybe it's going to be the police, the RCMP. But actually, last year, there was a coalition of police forces that came forward, they said they didn't want to be involved, you know, where they are more focused on is they're saying, look, we got lots of other things to do, we have a full job, it's busy enough as it is, where are we going to carve out this time? Where are we going to get this, you know, this, this person power, this manpower to go out and do this type of work? So I spoke with Brian Sauvé. He's the head of the National Police Federation, which is the RCMP's union. Do we have enough cops in Canada to be able to carry out

this buyback program or this confiscation program, whatever we want to call it? And is that going to just once again increase the mandate of police in Canada, you know, on behalf of the RCMP, obviously? And do they actually have the bodies to do it in a safe, timely, and effective fashion? So because it's become a bit of a polarizing issue, are we going to get into situations where people will not want the police attending to take their guns? Right, right. I know, you know, of course, there are advocates who think that this is exactly the kind of job that the police should be doing in our country. Karen, what if gun owners told you about whether or not they'll participate in a buyback program if one is offered?

Yeah, almost to a person, everyone tells me they are going to defy a buyback, that they are not going to participate, they're not going to hand in their guns. And some people say it quietly. They say, you know what, I'd rather go to jail than give back these guns. And some people are willing to say it a lot more loudly, like Amanda standing up and saying, you know, they're not going to participate. There won't be any giving up. My firearms or joining in a buyback program. I will be one of those people. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be kicking and screaming and throwing a big hissy fit,

but I won't be giving my firearms back without a fight. Thank you so much for coming by and wading through all this with us. It was really interesting. Yeah, always a pleasure. All right, that is all for today. A big thank you to CBC's Audio Documentary Unit for helping us put this episode together. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner.

Talk to you tomorrow.