Front Burner - Behind impeachment: Life in a Ukrainian war zone

Episode Date: December 19, 2019

The war in Ukraine and U.S. military aid was central to this week’s impeachment of U.S. President Donald Trump. That war has left roughly 13,000 people dead with many more injured and internally displaced. Today on Front Burner, CBC’s Russia correspondent Chris Brown will take us inside the conflict to explain why the U.S. military aid Donald Trump withheld had life and death stakes for the people who have lived through six long years of war.

This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. The yeas are 230, the nays are 197, Article 1 is adopted. On Wednesday, the President of the United States was impeached. Impeached because of what he said in a call with the President of Ukraine and his actions in that call's aftermath. It doesn't really feel like we're being impeached. The country is doing better than ever before.

We did nothing wrong. And amid all the uproar, it's easy to forget that the military aid withheld and eventually released would help Ukraine fight an active war. One that's left roughly 13,000 people dead.

CBC's Russia correspondent Chris Brown has been following the story closely. Today, he'll bring us a rare look inside eastern Ukraine's war zone to share what he learned from the embattled civilians on the ground and explain why that military assistance was such a big deal. This is Frontburner. Hi, Chris. Hello. Hi, Chris. Hello. Hi, Jamie.

Such a pleasure to have you back, as always. It's great to be back. Thank you. So I want to start with the Trump impeachment hearings. We heard from expert witnesses that the threat or even insinuation of withholding Ukraine military aid was just repugnant. Today we are joined by Ambassador William Taylor and Deputy Assistant Secretary of State George Kent. It was counterproductive to all of what we had been trying to do. It was illogical. It could not be explained. It was crazy. A Europe truly whole, free and at peace. Our strategic aim for the entirety of my Foreign Service career

is not possible without a Ukraine whole, free, and at peace. And as someone who just got back from that area, from eastern Ukraine, the epicenter of the war, why was that military aid so significant? Well, you use the word war. It is exactly a war. But what kind of a war it is depends on where you sit. From where I am here in Moscow, if you watch the television every day, they'll say it's a Ukrainian civil war fought between Ukrainians. But if you're in Ukraine, if you're in the capital Kiev, if you're in Western Europe, in fact, for many Canadians, it's not a civil war. It is a war between Ukraine and separatists that are backed and fueled by russia and that's why this money that the united states was uh withholding which it was giving to the ukrainian government

is so important because you had 400 million dollars that was being used for everything from you know snipers rifles to training troops to night vision goggles to medical assistance. All of this was going to Ukrainian government troops. And on the other side, you have the Russians. And even though they don't acknowledge this publicly, Western sources say it's absolutely true. And we can go into that more if you want. But there's ample evidence to show that they're doing the exact same thing on their side,

supporting the separatists with money, with weapons, with logistical support and so forth. So when one side kind of stops that support, it's very, very significant. And it could have had a very consequential impact if it had been allowed to continue. And that's why this was so absolutely crucial for the ukrainian government to get this money commander pavel sergejevich tells us one of his men was shot dead by a sniper 10 days ago so he's saying that when he heard the news that president trump had frozen the military aid he was unhappy because he says america is our important, our strongest ally. Right. And of course, we know that the Ukrainians did eventually get this money. The government did hand it over. Yes, they did. And when you try to quantify exactly, well, what was the impact on the ground

from a diplomatic point of view, it created an intense amount of uncertainty. It weakened the Ukrainian government's position. And anything that sort of weakens the Ukrainian government's position strengthens the Russian government's hand. And so that's sort of why this was such a big deal. OK. And so this war began in 2014, almost six years ago now. and I want to dig into it a little bit more with you. Can you tell me a bit more about what's at the center of this conflict? Well, ultimately, the place of Ukraine in Europe is at the very heart of this. You know, there's a saying, and I should know who said it, but I can't remember off the top of my head,

that Ukraine with Russia creates an empire. And if it's not with Russia, then Russia is just a plain ordinary state. So Ukraine really goes to the heart of what it means to be Russian. A lot of people see here, see Ukraine as like the birthplace of modern Russia, the origin in many ways of its language. The cultures, the people are very, very tightly connected. And of course, Ukraine was obviously a huge part of the Soviet empire up until 1990. But in 2014, there was a huge break, a cleavage with that. And there was a revolution, a coup, and the Ukrainians went to the streets of Maidan Square.

Unarmed protesters, gunned down in the streets by the riot police. By the end of the day, more than 50 people were dead, including three policemen. We are not terrorists. We are free people that want to live in a good country without corruption, with good laws. They threw out the Russian-backed president of Ukraine and they made a big tilt to the West. And that has been at the root of this and after 2014 the Russians they they invoke this idea that you know our people in Crimea are at risk Russian speaking people so their troops went in they

seized the Crimean Peninsula unidentified pro-russia armed militias controlling the streets of Crimea's capital. Armoured Russian vehicles burst through the wall of Crimea's Belbek base today, firing warning shots and throwing sound grenades. And then a little further north from that, the Crimean Peninsula is of course right on the Black Sea, a little further north of that in eastern Ukraine, these separatist conflicts broke out in places like Donbas and Lugansk, and it turned into a real fighting war between these separatist conflicts broke out in places like Donbass and Lugansk and it was a it

turned into a real fighting war between these separatists that were fueled by Russia and the Ukrainian government and it's really bogged down it's become in some cases like trench warfare almost like the First World War you know people we've talked to there have said I teach us when they're slouched it oh you know the Second World War the great patriotic War, the worst war the world has ever seen, only lasted for four years. And yet this conflict has been going on for six. Wow. So that gives you some sense of just how important and how big a deal this is for Ukraine.

I want to talk to you about what it's like for the people living there, especially when you put it that way. What is it like for the people living there, especially when you put it that way? The images from your reporting, your team's reporting in eastern Ukraine are difficult to watch. For people who haven't seen them, what does it look like in Donetsk? Well, I should tell you, we have been in the last 10 months, 9 months, our crew from Moscow has made four trips into Ukraine, various areas into parts of eastern Ukraine, many to the capital. But there's one area that's been very, very difficult for Westerners to get into, and that is the separatist area of Donetsk, Donbass, Lugansk. These are the

territories. They essentially, we've applied a number of times, and they will not let Canadians, will not let Westerners in. So in order to get that sense on the ground, we had two of our team that had Russian passports. And so they went in to a very dangerous area right around the capital of this self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic into the largest city of Donetsk. And they talked to folks there. We followed it up with other conversations with them, but they were the ones who actually got the pictures right up to the contact line. And this is a 500-kilometer front line

that they have, essentially, between where Ukrainian government troops to the west and separatist troops to the east. And, you know, we did this in the lead-up to this big summit that they had with the president, Vladimir Putin, with Ukraine's President Vladimir Zelensky, and then the leaders of Germany and France. And this was just a week

or so ago. And the overwhelming sentiment that we heard back from Donetsk was people just wanted this war to end. I mean, the conditions in the front lines were atrocious. I mean, we talked to one family, their kids couldn't go into their backyard because so often artillery shells, they don't know from which side of the line, would fire mines. And the mines would just end up on their street, in their

backyard, and of course those blow legs off people and much worse. We try not to go into the garden much because we can't predict when there will be gunfire or not. They say not a day goes by where there's not gunfire, not some kind of shootout happening. And this has been going on for six very, very long years. And this is supposedly in a situation where there's a ceasefire.

There actually is a ceasefire there, but it's obviously not holding. And so the overwhelming sentiment is just one of absolute fatigue. And, you know, speaking of these kids, I imagine many of them are young enough that they have only seen war. And I know that your team also went to a school and spoke with some young children. And what did they tell them? Well, exactly. I mean, if you're 11 years old, and this war has been going on for, you know, five and a half, six years, the only thing you realistically remember is when there was war going on. And of course, these kids lived almost right on the contact line.

They had to walk along cleared streets so that they didn't step in any landmines. They went, in some cases, under armed guard. And their life has been nothing but violence. So when you ask these kids, you know, what do they want? I want them to stop shooting. I want them to rebuild all the homes. I want people to walk around with smiles. I want people to stop shooting. I want them to rebuild all the homes. I want people to walk around with smiles. I want people to stop dying. These are very basic emotions that these kids feel,

but you can understand why they would be so precious to them because it's not something that they've experienced really in their whole life. And I know that your team also spoke to some older women who have actually moved underground for their safety. Can you tell me about this bunker that they're living in? Yeah, this is crazy. I mean, these women are older. They're all in their 70s. Their husbands, for a number of different health reasons and so forth, died before they did. And they've really come together in this odd community just outside of the main capital of Donetsk. But they can't go back to their homes because their homes are right in the line of fire. They are so shell-shocked. Their lives are so traumatized by the violence around them that they literally have moved into an old Soviet-era bunker, gone underground.

And this is where they've set up beds. The bunker already had running water. So they have some sanitation facilities, but there's no heat. So these poor women literally cluster around each other all night, and they have spent three of them told us they have been down there, it's their sixth

winter that they've spent down there because it's just not safe for them up above. And I found it quite striking because their loyalties were quite divided. Donetsk belongs to Ukraine. It was Ukraine's and still is. It wants to join Russia. Maybe so, but I doubt Russia will want it.

Some of them were clearly on the separatist side. Some of them clearly were fed up with the Ukrainian government, clearly wanted nothing to do with, quote, those people. And yet others clearly just wanted the war to end and for these breakaway republics to go back to Ukraine. But it also didn't really seem to matter. Like, they just wanted the fighting to end. I want peace to come so we can come out of here,

so people will live, so kids can have a normal life and go to school like before. Do you think that these women are like a microcosm of opinion, like broader opinion? Is this an example of how split the rest of the region is? On the Ukrainian side, people will tell you, well, if the Russians just stop funding this war, if they stop sending arms to the separatists, then this conflict would just end. That's the Ukrainian point of view. And I think a lot of people in Donetsk feel that way. But my sense from what I can distill from the official sort

of pronouncements from down there is that there still is quite a bit of support for the separatist cause. A lot of people speak Russian. They think of themselves as Russian. What they are is annoyed because whereas Crimea was sort of absorbed into Russia and is now effectively part of Russia, all those Crimeans are now eligible for Russian passports and they get Russian pensions. That didn't happen with these breakaway publics in Ukraine. So there's bitterness towards Russia because they feel sold out. So in many cases, these people really are, you know, wanted by no one. Right. I couldn't help but notice that one of the women that your team spoke to, she had doubts that Russia even wanted Donetsk.

Well, this is the thing. This is a very poor area. It's a post-Soviet industrial wasteland. It used to be very, very productive, but you can imagine what six years of war has kind of done to the economy there. And Russia, outside of Moscow, is not a rich place. There's arguments in the streets here, in many cases, about declining pensions, about declining standards of living. And the last thing I think that the Russian government needs is another 5 million poor Ukrainians to look after. And so this is one of the motivations, perhaps, that's brought Vladimir Putin to the table to talk to Vladimir Zelenskyy of Ukraine about what to do about this. Now, you know, Putin doesn't just simply want for the war to end on Zelenskyy's terms. That's not what he's after. But the motivation to do something about

these people, to make them not a Russian problem, would be one of Russia's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. So let's talk about this a little bit. You mentioned last week President Zelensky met with Russian President Vladimir Putin and they met for the first time at a peace summit in Paris. It was quite strained. It certainly looked like that. The meeting was long and difficult, but the mood of the meeting was rather positive. It is true, and I want to make it clear.

How did it play out? Well, not a whole lot happened. I guess you could say the takeaways that were positive was they agreed that they would try to implement the ceasefire. Now, they've been trying to do this for a number of years, and it's not happened, but maybe they'll try a little harder. They agreed to do some exchanges in terms of prisoners, and that's obviously very good for the prisoners. We saw a very big prisoner exchange a few months ago leading up to this and this kind of paved the way, if you will. I think the biggest takeaway, the best thing that you could probably say of this is that at least there's a process now to perhaps continue with these conversations. The former president of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, was adamantly opposed to giving ground in any way to Russia.

We are now together with our European, American, and world partners, and we do not allow anybody to blackmail us. And Zelensky was elected back in March with a huge 70-something percent majority campaigning on this idea that we're going to end this war. So he has an awful lot of public support behind him, but no one in Ukraine wants to see him sell the farm, give everything away to Vladimir Putin in order to end this war. And I think the real worry is that what the Russians may push for, and what they clearly are pushing for, is that they would retain

some de facto control, almost a puppet state, if you will, in these breakaway areas so that once they're reintegrated into Ukraine, Russia gets its way, it can perhaps paralyze Ukrainian government, it can veto things like future membership in NATO, future membership in the EU. And that's not what Ukrainians want. So Zelensky doesn't have a lot of room to move in spite of his, you know, big, big election win. Are there any solutions that seem possible here at all? So I think there's three big solutions. Well, I wouldn't call them solutions, three potential outcomes anyway. One is that this conflict could continue to grind away as it has

for many, many more years to come. I mean, just to give you an example, you said 13,000 people have been killed in six years. That's very true. Just in the last week, just since the Putin-Zelensky summit, there have been breaches of that ceasefire. There have been mortar shells raining down on the Ukrainian side of that ceasefire line. That's just in the last week. But one of the possible outcomes is that that kind of thing keeps on happening. I suppose Ukraine could give up on this area and just say, fine, we're done with it. They could walk away from the whole separatist region.

That, to me, seems unlikely. Zelensky would have a real political backlash. So it does seem that some sort of a deal eventually will come of this, but this may take a very long time, and it's just going to be very sad for all these people that we've talked to because there just isn't that much impetus for Russia to give up too much.

And the Ukrainians really can't. And again, it comes back to this $400 million. That's why when one of your biggest backers, such as the United States, suddenly looks lukewarm, suddenly doesn't seem to be entirely committed. It really weakens your negotiating position. Right. And it gives sort of the upper hand to Russia. Exactly. And of course, Canada is playing a role in this conflict as well. What have we been doing? Canada has been playing a very important role in this conflict. Over the last six years, we've given something like $740 million to Ukraine. We have 200 troops right now in the western part of Ukraine that are part of something called Operation Unifier, where they train up Ukrainian soldiers so that they can then go to the front

lines and face off against these separatist soldiers. Canada's trained something like 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers. And then again, you've got lots of support that we give in terms of governance, fighting corruption, all sorts of help with policing. A strong, stable Ukraine is not only important for Canada, it's important for the entire world. It is essential that we preserve a rules-based international order, and that's why we've extended Operation Unifier until 2022. So Canada is one of the key Western partners that Ukraine has, and it's one of the reasons why when Vladimir Zelensky was elected, one of his, if not his very first stop, wasn't the United States, even though he clearly wanted to go there,

but it was Canada. I remember that when he came here. It was in the summer. Chris Brown, thank you so much. Thank you, Jamie. All right, so yesterday was a marathon day in the U.S. House of Representatives as Congress debated and then, of course, voted to impeach the president. Here's a bit of what went down. The president and his men plot on. The danger persists. The risk is real. Our democracy is at peril. These facts are beyond

dispute. The only question now is whether we are willing to tolerate such conduct. When Jesus was falsely accused of treason, Pontius Pilate gave Jesus the opportunity to face his accusers. During that sham trial, Pontius Pilate afforded more rights to Jesus than the Democrats have afforded this president in this process. That is all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. I'm Jamie Poisson. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.