Front Burner - BONUS: Hong Kong protests and fears of China’s long reach

Episode Date: June 15, 2019

Throughout the week hundreds of thousands of Hong Kong residents took to the streets to protest a proposed extradition bill. Many fear it will be used to target dissidents who speak out against the Chinese state. Protests escalated to violent clashes between police and young demonstrators. Today on Front Burner, Hong Kong Free Press reporter Jennifer Creery on what this means for the region’s fight to resist China’s influence.

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Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. That's the sound of protesters clearing out of the streets surrounding Hong Kong's legislature on Wednesday. They're covering their faces so that they won't inhale the tear gas that riot police just sprayed in the area. The Hong Kong residents were challenging a law that would allow China to extradite people to the mainland with few safeguards. Many fear that it will be used to target activists and dissidents who speak out against the Chinese state.

The crowd's notable for their size and diversity. Fear over the government's extradition bill is widespread. Today, I'm speaking with Hong Kong Free Press reporter Jennifer Creary about what's happening on the ground in Hong Kong and how this is really about the territory's long fight to have certain freedoms under Chinese rule. This is FrontBurner. Jennifer, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today.

Thank you for having me. These protests began last Sunday, hundreds of thousands of people crowding the streets, protesting the bill. And then on Wednesday, there was a surge of protests ahead of the scheduled second hearing of the bill, which ended up being postponed. And can we start with what you saw on Wednesday? Right, so on Wednesday, that was the second protest after a largely peaceful march on Sunday. And you could definitely feel the kind of anger and the tension in the air on Wednesday, particularly among young people, which was the primary kind of demographic of protesters. And this is because only a few days prior, the chief executive, Carrie Lam, had essentially dismissed Sunday's march, basically pushing forward with the extradition bill,

saying that it was necessary to kind of close a loophole. So particularly on Wednesday, you could really feel the anger among protesters. And this essentially culminated in just a series of clashes between them and the police. Can you tell me a little bit more about these clashes? What was happening on the streets? It really kicked off around 3 p.m. So the protesters had been occupying the space around the city's parliament for basically overnight. There are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people right around the legislature building.

And everything was largely peaceful, but they kind of set a deadline. They wanted a response from the government regarding the extradition bill. The crowd were kind of advancing forward and things escalated. And the police began to use pepper spray and ultimately tear gas. And of course, this culminated in just a series of kind of violent clashes. So as of 5pm today, the hospital authority in Hong Kong confirmed that around 81 people had been injured in those clashes. And two of those people are in a serious condition. And of course, the police chief, Stephen Lowe, confirmed that 22 police officers had been injured. We hence strongly condemn the violent behavior of the rioters.

So these were largely kind of, you know, violent clashes, which is relatively rare in Hong Kong. The images on TV are incredibly harrowing to see. I was seeing young people wrapping themselves in plastic wrap, essentially trying to protect themselves from the tear cast, wearing hard hats. What are people there saying about the violence that's erupted? Nobody really wanted things to escalate on Wednesday. that's erupted? Nobody really wanted things to escalate on Wednesday. If anything, the politicians kind of explicitly put themselves in front of demonstrators to try and calm them. In fact, one of the legislators, Roy Kwong, collapsed at one point from just exhaustion. But particularly among young people, there's just this sense of frustration. And this really harks back to the 2014 Umbrella protests and the 2016

Mong Kok unrest. So I want to get into that with you in a moment. But first, can we go through this bill, this particular bill that people are protesting? What's at the heart of it? The protest is over a proposed extradition bill that many see as an attack on Hong Kong's relative independence from China. Essentially, it's a lack of trust in the mainland's judicial system, but also a lack of trust in Hong Kong's authorities. We want to make sure that this law wouldn't be passed according to the government's schedule. That was the objective of yesterday's action. Essentially, protesters are concerned that the bill will give mainland authorities

power to extradite anyone on kind of trumped up charges. But also, this means that Hong Kong authorities, they essentially don't trust what Hong Kong authorities to kind of prevent this from happening. So particularly human rights activists, political figures, and even journalists are at risk. The idea being that China will be able to extradite whomever they want back to mainland, where there is a very opaque judicial system controlled by the state. Exactly. There's a lack of transparency in the mainland. You know, a few people I spoke to on the ground on Sunday's March, you know, they were very vocal spoke to on the ground on Sunday's March, you know, they were very vocal about their opposition to this bill,

but they were very reluctant to reveal their identities to me because they were afraid that if the bill does indeed pass, this could put them at risk and this interview could haunt them in the future. And so many of the people I spoke to only did so under the condition of anonymity.

Well, people are afraid. People are also angry about this extradition treaty. So everyone is coming out, not just Hong Kongers, but also expats who are staying in Hong Kong and calling Hong Kong home for now. And what does the Hong Kong government have to say about this? Of course, Hong Kong is part of China, but essentially Hong Kong has its own judicial system that is separate from China's,

and it also has its own government. What is the Hong Kong government saying here? Right, so the Hong Kong government introduced this bill in February, and they said that they've introduced it because they want to, quote, close a loophole, which is that we know Hong Kong doesn't have an extradition agreement with mainland China. It's not just about mainland China as well. They want to create extradition agreements with a variety of jurisdictions, including Taiwan.

But people are, of course, concerned about mainland China because of its opaque legal system. People are, of course, concerned about mainland China because of its opaque legal system. And actually, it's worth noting that in 1997, when the colonial government was drawing up its extradition agreements for Hong Kong, they explicitly avoided creating one with China because they said that its legal system was underdeveloped. And even Beijing themselves agreed at the time that you go through declassified files, which we did. It's interesting because there's a case in New Zealand right now where a similar thing is playing out, I believe. A New Zealand court has stopped a murder suspect from being extradited to China. It's ordered the government to reassess its decision, citing human rights concerns.

The Chinese government was trying to extradite someone from New Zealand and a New Zealand judge just ruled that this person would not be able to get a fair trial if they were extradited to China. That's what a lot of activists and critics are kind of pointing to as an example of how the kind of Hong Kong government's reasoning behind this bill is essentially hollow and a straw man. Tell me a little bit more, and I know that it's complicated, but briefly about how Hong Kong's government works. Does the Chinese government have a lot of influence on Hong Kong's government? Right. So this is, of course, a very poignant question because the Hong Kong government will of course say that no it's independent, it operates alongside the framework of one country, two systems which was drawn up during the handover in 1997.

We are in the closing seconds now of Hong Kong as a British colony. But a lot of critics would argue that in in fact, no, they are, of course, you know, influenced by mainland China. And every month, Chief Executive Carrie Lam meets with kind of mainland authorities to discuss whatever issues are at hand at the time. And so, of course, people are very paranoid. And this creates kind of this climate of anxiety among Hong Kongers. We'll be back in a second. Discover what millions around the world already have. Audible has Canada's largest library of audiobooks, including exclusive content curated by and for Canadians. Experience books in a whole new way, Thank you. car or out on a jog. The first 30 days of the Audible membership are free, including a free book. Go to www.audible.ca slash cbc to learn more.

You mentioned earlier that there were a lot of young people out on the streets. Are you seeing any other faces in the crowds? I'm just trying to get a sense of who in Hong Kong is opposed to this. Mainly on Sunday, it was a very wide demographic because you had families there with their kids and their dogs. And you had young people, you had old people because this really hits the core of Hong Kong

because it emphasizes kind of lack of trust in not only kind of mainland authorities, but also Hong Kong itself. The Chinese government is trying to control over Hong Kong and also trying to make sure that Hong Kong people keep silence and just follow their orders. just follow their orders. Beyond this extradition bill, can you tell me more about how this is about people in Hong Kong defining themselves differently

from mainland China? Right, so with the extradition bill, it's a difference between judicial systems. We have kind of, or we supposedly have the rule of law in hong kong but this is also about kind of hong kong identity and so a lot of protesters i spoke to kind of define themselves as hong kongers particularly after the handover in 1997 and the various kind of events that followed so you know you have the 2014 Occupy protests. And I really think it comes back to this idea of having this sense of kind of individualism and separation from the mainland. So the protests in the past few days is as much about, you know, freedom and rights as it is about identity.

So you've mentioned these 2014 protests. My understanding is that they were these pro-democracy protests and they were part of this movement called the Umbrella Movement. The protests have been growing larger, louder, and ever more defiant as riot police have tried to quiet those intent on pressuring Beijing into granting Hong Kong full democracy. And can you tell me how these protests in 2014 relate to what's happening today? Right, so Hong Kong has a very proud tradition of protests. You know, we report on one at least every week. It's about an exercise in civil liberties. And I think part of the reason why we have these protests now is that there's a certain anxiety about these civil liberties being whittled away through these various pieces of legislation like the extradition

bill and actually an important kind of thing that I noticed on Wednesday's protest was there was a lot of repetition, a lot of the slogans that were used in the 2014 protest were repeated rather deliberately. For example, at the end of Occupy or the Umbrella Movement, there was a large banner that was hung up and it said, we will be back. And so on Wednesday's protest, people were essentially chanting, we are back. And there was this one pro-democracy legislator called Claudia Moe

who got quite emotional because there was a sense of kind of the Umbrella Movement sense of kind of the umbrella movement being incomplete because of the way that the police ended the protest. And so certainly all these protests feed into each other. And it's all about kind of the exercise of civil liberties and freedoms in this semi-autonomous territory. And I also understand there have been events since the umbrella protests that have also made Hong Kong residents fearful that these freedoms that they have are being chipped away at. And, you know, for example, can you tell me more about the disappearance of booksellers

in 2015? Right. So there are five booksellers in Hong Kong who were selling kind of gossip books about mainland Chinese authorities. And around the end of 2015, a bunch of them disappeared from Hong Kong and a few of them turned up in mainland China on a series of televised confessions. This is very relevant to the extradition bill because, you know, there's this phrase that people always use here, and that is to be disappeared. And this

mainly kind of happens in the mainland where activists, politicians just goes missing. And, you know, in a few months time, kind of some kind of Chinese court will post a short statement saying, oh, they've been in custody for X many weeks. But there is certainly this fear of being disappeared as with the Causeway Bay booksellers. I spoke to a few

legislators about this and I asked, you know, if you're a prominent enough activist, then surely you would just be disappeared. You don't need this extradition bill. But they said that, well, this extradition bill will basically give mainland authorities the kind of legal power to take anyone, regardless of how prominent or, you know, famous they may be. Right. And so, so essentially, the extradition bill is about kind of giving power, giving legal power to mainland authorities, as opposed to how the kind of court was way they booksellers disappeared. Essentially, it's like, in a way, legitimizing the power as opposed to it happening in these darker corners. Is that a fair way to describe it?

ago, he, over fear of this kind of extradition bill, he was essentially scared that it would give kind of mainland authorities reason to extradite him back to the mainland. So yes, as you say, it's kind of this legitimization of, you know, to be disappeared. appeared. Jennifer, I know that you were born in Hong Kong. I'm wondering if you've had a chance personally to reflect on what you've seen. I know you've been really busy covering this. Reflecting on what's happened in the past few days, certainly there is a sense of being inspired by how Hong Kong society is able to organise this quickly. I'm Yoyo and I'm from Hong Kong. I've been going on a hunger strike here for the last 32 hours

to protest against the amendment of the extradition law in Hong Kong. And also just interacting with protesters on a ground level. Yesterday was my first time being tear gassed. You know, I have no experience with it. And I didn't have, you know, much protective gear. But as soon as it hit me, and by the way, I have asthma. I'm sorry to hear that. I couldn't breathe very well. And, you know, within a matter of seconds, you know, I had protesters coming up to me asking me if I was okay, you know, putting solution in my eye. And there was definitely a sense of kind of community, which I think makes it all the more bittersweet how it's ended. I'm not sure if ended is the right word, but how Wednesday ended. It's certainly very upsetting,

but also it makes it all the more, you know, gives me all the more reason to come out and try and document it and try and talk to people on the ground level. Jennifer, thank you so much. Thank you. That's all for today. Thanks so much for listening to Frontburner. Thank you. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus.

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