Front Burner - Bonus | Nothing is Foreign: How Chelsea FC’s sanctions raise questions of ethical sports ownership

Episode Date: March 26, 2022

Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich has delivered unprecedented success for his team, London's Chelsea Football Club, in the English Premier League. But with sanctions tightening around Abramovich, who is on the list of those deemed to be enabling Russian President Vladimir Putin in his war against Ukraine, the team's finances and ethics are under the microscope. And that scrutiny levelled at Abramovich has expanded to other Premier League clubs that are owned by countries with questionable human rights records, leaving fans and its millions of viewers around the world asking what team they're really supporting. Does the blinding gleam of trophies cover up bigger, darker and more complicated questions about ethical ownership in sports? This week, Nothing is Foreign looks into how oligarchs and countries have used "sportswashing" to launder their reputations, the tentacles that extend from England into Russia, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and beyond, and the reckoning underway at the highest levels of sports and business. Note, this episode contains explicit language. Featuring: Mayowa Quadri, editorial officer at Versus and Chelsea FC supporter. Ben Jacobs, sports journalist and producer, CBS Sports.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey everybody, Jamie here. For the last couple of weeks, we've been dropping episodes of Nothing is Foreign in our feed. They're kind of like a sister show for us, a CBC podcast that delivers a weekly deep dive into an international news story and really puts local voices at the center. This week, they've got a super interesting story about how oligarchs and nation states have used pro sports

to launder their reputations. Of course, it touches on Russia, Ukraine and soccer, but also much more. I hope you like it. I definitely did. So we're now about a month into the war in Ukraine. The fighting continues and there have been catastrophic consequences for the Ukrainian people. And on the other side, Russians are adjusting to life under severe economic sanctions as the West is trying to put pressure on President Vladimir Putin to end the war. But the impact of these sanctions aren't just being felt in Russia. We're already seeing, for example, the prices of oil and wheat at record highs across the globe. And we're seeing the effects being felt in more unexpected places,

like Chelsea Football Club. Chelsea gets action everywhere they go. Chelsea gets action everywhere they go. Roman and Brampton, Roman and Brampton. Chelsea is based in West London, and it competes in the English Premier League, a multi-billion dollar enterprise and one of the most popular sports leagues in the world. And Chelsea is owned by Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich. So Roman Abramovich is a Russian billionaire who is believed to be extremely

close to Putin. Ben Jacobs is a sports writer and producer for CBS Sports, and he's based in the UK. Even though he has denied that relationship. But the UK government has described him as a pro-Kremlin oligarch associated with Mr. Putin, with whom whom Mr Abramovich has had a close relationship with for decades the UK government also adding that he's obtained financial benefits from that association and because there is a blanket UK government response to the war in Russia that has resulted in sanctions against key Russian officials Roman Abramovich has been sanctioned and had his assets frozen and as a consequence Abramovich can no longer run Chelsea

Football Club. Chelsea themselves have daily sanctions stopping them do what they normally do. The club wouldn't be able to buy or sell players while Abramovich is under sanctions. The merchandise shop is closed. They're having to play their Champions League game behind closed doors. They can't sell home or away tickets. No money that they make can go back to Roman Abramovich and ultimately he is forced to sell the club. The future of Chelsea is now up in the air, with bidders lining up to buy it.

And its supporters aren't happy. Some of them feel like they're being unfairly punished. But for others, it's a moment of reckoning about who gets to own a football team. And the conversation's now gone beyond Chelsea. There's a renewed focus on rich countries with questionable human rights records, like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE. They also own clubs, and fans and the league are asking themselves whether they should be allowed to, and how they're wielding the power that comes with owning a team. On this episode, we're going to England, where money from oligarchs and nation states

has taken over sports at the highest levels. We're going to talk about whether this is a turning point for the Premier League and whether it'll force fans to look more closely beyond trophies at the true cost of success. I'm Tamara Kandaker, and you're listening to Nothing is Foreign. So in case you've never met a Chelsea fan, I want to start by giving you a sense of who they are and how much this club is a part of their identities. Mayowa Quadri is an editorial officer at the football publication Versus and a diehard Chelsea supporter. So I've supported Chelsea all my life. So my mum's a Chelsea fan and I was born in West London, not too far from the stadium, before I moved to South London where I'm based now. I just, I was sort of adopted into the Chelsea way. I was just in awe of it. Yeah. Do you remember any moments throughout your life or

players that made you think, this is why I love Chelsea? I remember so many moments of Gio Franco goals with the Flicks. I remember Jimmy Floyd Hasselbeck just rifling the ball into the top corner. I remember the days a bit later on when you had people like Damien Duff and Robin on each of the wings. There's just so many things that stand out, that are fresh memories of Chelsea. We've had so many iconic players over the years, that just means so much. Recently, a few months back, I wrote a piece on Didier Drogba and just how much he meant to me as a human being and a footballer. Didier Drogba is a Chelsea legend and one of the greatest African football players of all time. He was the driving force behind Chelsea's first Champions League title,

European football's most important trophy. Drogba! They pulled the rabbit out of the hat again! What a moment for Didier Drogba! But many fans also love him for what he's done for Africa off the pitch. After Drogba played a crucial match for his home country of Cote d'Ivoire in 2005, he called for a ceasefire in its ongoing civil war. And the speech has been credited with helping end the conflict which he actually he actually found the piece and shared it and it was like oh my gosh this is like my goat i've always had this real connection with it more than just football

but just how much you know the football club means to me yeah and if you had to describe the chelsea fan base and the culture around the team, what would you say? Are people generally as passionate as you are? 100%. There's a very real feeling about Chelsea. The way I see it is there's so many subsets of fans. There's a massive African contingent off of the back of the success of African players at Chelsea. I mean, my origin is a Nigerian origin. So I've been to Nigeria at times and literally all you see is the iconic Chelsea Samsung shirts

with Mikel, Drogba, all of these, Michaelessian. These are the African giants that represented Chelsea. So there's a massive sort of sub-fan base there. There is the sort of the King's Road massive as I call them the people that have you know from born and bred in West London and that Chelsea is the bread and butter from decades ago to now before their success that is their club there is a new age of fan who you know their success has brought them in but it's a very diverse fan base in that sense that everyone just genuinely loves the football club.

For people like Maioa, who followed Chelsea their whole lives, the news about Abramovich has been difficult to process because he's the one who's presided over the most successful period in the club's history. Two Champions League titles, five Premier League trophies, five FA Cups and three League Cups. But Abramovich's influence doesn't end with Chelsea. He's had a profound impact on all of European football.

Here's Ben again. I mean, Roman Abramovich was the first real foreign owner with money to come into English, if not global football, at that level. And when he entered Chelsea Football Club, the soccer club that he inherited, even though it's in a very fashionable part of London, was essentially falling behind. The stadium wasn't good. The training facilities were out of date, it had a range of old journeyman players and Abramovich came in with money and wanted to spend for an instant impact. I haven't thought about how much money I'm prepared to spend. I suppose that depends on how well we play and how determined we are to win. If I feel we need to buy any

particular player to get the results we want, I'll just spend more money. And Chelsea were able to catalyze a process where they caught up with those teams in terms of silverware and then ultimately replaced them. And cynics will say it's just because Abramovich spent money. But what he did was employ people around his soccer club in quite a cutthroat way. So he wasn't prepared to stick with a manager, a coach, a member of the backroom staff, if the job wasn't being done. And the other thing that he did, which I think bled into all of English soccer in particular, was he started encouraging his management staff and scouts to bring in top class, world class foreign talent. And one of the first players that came in was Gianfranco Zola, for example, the Italian legend and forward.

And Chelsea set that bar and then the rest of the English Premier League followed. And now the Premier League is not only the top soccer league, I believe anyway, in the world, but it's full of that foreign talent. Right. And my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that Abramovich purchasing Chelsea kind of kickstarted this era of huge amounts of money pouring in to football. So I read this piece in the New York Times, which described it as an inflationary spiral that has fractured European football beyond repair with only a handful of clubs hoarding all of the wealth of the game. What kind of impact do you think he's had

on the money that comes into the Premier League and into football in general? And who were the new owners who entered the scene after him? So Abramovich being one of the first with that amount of wealth and being prepared to some extent to use Chelsea Football Club for vanity, in other words, it didn't really matter whether or not he made a profit. To begin with, what he wanted was the kudos of owning a major brand and football club, coupled with success that he was prepared to buy, even if he was out of pocket. And you're quite right. That then created an inflationary spiral, whereby once people knew that Chelsea had

money, the market value for any player went up. But what we've seen is a slight shift from buying a football club just for vanity, which is Roman Abramovich to begin with, but he quickly turned it into a business and a brand. And then we've seen other foreign owners realizing that they don't just want to buy success because, of course, you're not guaranteed the success because the playing field is leveled and there's loads of billionaires suddenly. So then you have to come in as a rich owner with other goals other than just we want to win things and I'm prepared to lose money. So then after Roman Abramovich, you had Manchester City being taken over by Sheikh Nayyan. There was definitely more of a government interest within that sale.

So even if not directly influencing the club on a day-to-day basis, the whole point of Manchester City's UAE ownership was about spending for success and gaining things such as government messaging, cultural messaging, promotion of tourism. This is, for example, the kind of thing you can find on Manchester City's YouTube channel. Now, I'm off to Abu Dhabi, over 7,000 kilometres away from Manchester and the Etihad Stadium. What football team do you guys support? Man City. Of course.

Man City. What football team do you like to support? Man City. Of course. Man City. A bustling metropolis full of amazing sights, sounds and colours, but also a city of football fans. But when Manchester City came along, it was far more strategic and it's the same with a much more recent takeover

by the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund, who are known as PIF, and they've just bought Newcastle United as 80% majority owners. Saudi Arabia is bringing hope to thousands of football fans in Newcastle. These were the scenes at St James' Park Stadium at the first game since Newcastle United Football Club was taken over by a Saudi-led consortium. Fans were over the moon. Some welcomed their new golf owners with keffiyehs and white

throats they'd ordered online. Others settled for throwing a kitchen towel on their heads. Newcastle's takeover by the Saudi Public Investment Fund was controversial even before it was approved. Ever since this deal was first talked about over 18 months ago, Amnesty has said that it would represent a really high watermark for the Saudi authorities in their efforts to clean up their appalling human rights record by buying into top-flight English football. The PIF is a sovereign wealth fund chaired by Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. The same man who the U.S. alleges ordered the killing of dissident journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who's jailed women's rights activists and other human rights defenders, and whose government has waged a devastating war in Yemen. But when the sale of Newcastle was announced, the Premier League stressed that it was the PIF, not Saudi Arabia, who was buying it.

You know, very much our partner is not the Saudi state. Our partner is PIF, and we look forward to working with them. It's the same argument you hear from some Newcastle fans now. They'll also say it's unfair to hold Newcastle to the standard while other companies and even the UK government regularly deals with the Saudi regime. You know when the Saudis come into town you know the queen literally you know rolls out the red carpet. The Saudis have investment in Twitter, Facebook, Starbucks, your Ubers, your Buang. Are you going to stop going and using these social medias?

Are you going to stop having a coffee? We're not going to stop going to have a football cup. They're also trying to use sport for soft power, to use sport to promote government messaging, to use sport to paint Saudi Arabia in a better light. So what we're seeing is a sort of strategic shift with these rich owners from individual joy because they're football fans and they want the club because it's good for them. where it's good for them, plus their business, plus their brand, plus potentially their government or influential figures from the country or region where they reside. Right. And what you're talking about with Saudi's takeover of Newcastle or the UAE's ownership of

Manchester City, that's what's known as sports washing, right? I've also seen this term used quite a bit in relation to Abramovich but you've been saying that he bought the team for the purposes of vanity but I wonder like what is the conversation around him when it comes to sports washing I know there's been some accusations of that but what do you make of that well I think the difference between Abramovich and say Manchester City or Newcastle United going forward, even though that is a relatively new acquisition, is that Abramovich is quite a distant owner. He rarely gives an interview. A lot of what he does is kind of behind the scenes and in private. And we haven't actually heard that much from him in the limelight. Whereas Manchester City are all about promoting the UAE. They're all about showcasing Etihad Airlines on their shirts,

which is the national carrier of Abu Dhabi. Visit Abu Dhabi with Etihad Airways, official club sponsors of Abu Dhabi. They're all about showing that Saudi Arabia is progressive, is better with inclusion and diversity. They're trying to some extent to rewrite history. And for me personally, that's quite hard to swallow because you know what the record is like in Saudi Arabia on all of these different issues. And that's why it's called sports washing. And that's why it's a more derogatory term. In some cases, there are individuals or countries and the UAE is certainly a better example than Saudi Arabia where strides are being taken and sports should be used to show that and celebrate that.

But generally, you find with a lot of these countries that they are trying to kind of get in with a fan base that will just love having a rich owner. And they know that fan base is loyal and they're aware that that fan base will put sport above everything else. And you can use that to promote whatever you want. How do countries like Saudi Arabia and the UAE, how do they respond to the allegations of sports washing? I mean, they don't like the term and they think that it doesn't have to have derogatory connotations. And that's because they fundamentally believe that they're in sport to showcase their culture, which obviously is very positive. So if you're Qatari and you've got a World Cup coming up this winter and you're invested in a football club like Nasser Al Khalafi is at Paris Saint

Germain over in France his take is why wouldn't I want to get people back to my native country seeing the sites realizing it's got great hospitality and climate and food and then by arriving there they'll make their own judgments about what the country's like. At this level of senior ownership in Qatar, in Saudi Arabia, in the UAE, will repeatedly tell you that on and off record, that their main aim is not to pull the wool over your eyes. This is the Saudi finance minister, Mohammed Al-Jaddan, on the takeover of Newcastle. They are investing in the club, but they are also investing in the community, in the academy, in the stadium itself.

But it's also, you know, touching the people and reaching out to people. All they're trying to do is get you to their country or educate you around the country and the culture. All of that is fine to some extent. But first, they can't just wipe the past clean. They have to be accountable to the past. Recently, it's been Newcastle coach Eddie Howe

answering the tough questions. After a recent match against Chelsea, reporters grilled the coach on the 81 people who were executed in Saudi Arabia the day before, the country's biggest mass execution in decades. From my perspective, and I've always maintained this, my specialist subject is football. It's what I know, it's what I've trained to do as soon as I deviate from that into an area where I don't feel qualified to

have a huge opinion I think I go into dangerous ground I'll see you next time. entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So as the Abramovich-Chelsea saga has developed over the last month, there's been a renewed focus on the ownership of the other teams that Ben's been talking about and the allegations of sports washing against Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE. But going back to the crisis Chelsea's facing right now, a lot of its fans are stressed about their club's future.

Basically today I've just been told the news and I think it's a joke. It's like they're trying to extinct our club. At games, they've been chanting Abramovich's name. Roman Abramovich! Roman Abramovich! Last week, the prime minister's spokesperson actually told them to stop, calling it completely inappropriate. And some Chelsea fans agree.

They say their behavior is embarrassing and that this whole situation's brought up a lot of uncomfortable questions for them, making them reflect on their relationship with Chelsea. One of those people is Maioa, who recently wrote an essay called, The Blue Flag Must Keep Flying High, but we need to address the red flags too. Blue is, of course, Chelsea's team colour. I asked him what it's been like to be a Chelsea fan in the wake of the sanctions. I think there's been uncertainty about what happens to the club, the uncertainty about whether the club will be able to finish the season, how hard the sanctions

would be, now the club being up for sale. To many's this feeling of have we come to the end of a road of what has been a very successful period for Chelsea for me I love Chelsea I love what Chelsea is but there's there's always like an uneasiness part of that comes from some of the behaviour that happens around Chelsea I think it's well known that there has been issues with racism in the past. We like it, we like it, we like it, we like it, we like it. Four Chelsea fans have been ordered to pay heavy fines and have been given suspended sentences for racially assaulting a black man on the Paris metro. They were part of a group who sang racist chants and pushed the man off a train

as they traveled to a Champions League match against Paris Saint-Germain. So I've always had that feeling a little bit as I've got older and I've been more wise to things. I've always had that uneasiness. It was one of those things that in the back of your mind, you kind of had that the owner's not allowed in the country. Something's not right here. What's going on? Abramovich used to be a regular at Chelsea games, but he stopped showing up in 2018 after his visa expired. He withdrew his application as British politicians were ringing the alarm about Russian influence.

This was after a former Russian spy was poisoned in the UK. former Russian spy was poisoned in the UK. Abramovich has also donated $100 million to a controversial organization called Elad, which supports Israeli settlements in occupied East Jerusalem. In his piece, Maiawa takes issue with this. He says it presents far more questions around Abramovich's political motivations. Now it's like, wow, should we have really looked into those things a lot more deeper? Which is, it's a conflicting feeling, right? Because a lot of people will say that you can love your football club and not love what's around it. But I likened the Premier League to a monopoly board of wealthy individuals

or countries worldwide that want a piece of it because it's a global standard, right? wealthy individuals or countries worldwide that want a piece of it because it's a global standard right and with that it means that politics and society and big business are always going to be involved in football you can't separate it let's just zoom out for a second so this isn't just a Chelsea problem right in the wake of these sanctions uh the owners of other clubs are under the microscope too. These things have been talked about before, but why do you think it's taken Russia's war against Ukraine for these things to really come into focus? It's a really, really good question. And my honest answer is, I don't know. I think in terms of everything that's happened in the world recently we're in a place where conversations are had a lot more i feel like after the pandemic and everything we saw

in and around if i'm being honest george floyd under that situation we're in a place where people have sort of realized that there's power in questioning things and standing up for something this situation has been brought about by an invasion of another country and the uk or the west taking a stand and then in reaction to that people are now questioning why things have not been done before why is the energy different some people want to have more conversations about it now because they've got an example, which is a prominent example of when things can be done. And of course, with football fans,

what tends to happen is football is tribalistic by nature. So what happens is other clubs will use the situation as a beating stick. Well, what I'm seeing here is rather than that happening, people actually having a conversation about how do we get football to a place where football can be safe? There's another dimension of this that I wanted to ask you about. There is an argument that owning a sports team buys you influence, that it can help you kind of launder your reputation. From a fan perspective, do you think that's been true for these countries and for someone like Roman Abramovich, that owning a football team has helped them in that way? Football is the global language. It's a game that everyone understands.

It transcends sport. It's something that brings people together. Having a football club and doing right by a community that is a global community always looks a certain way for whoever's involved. So for instance, the City example, the amount of money that's been pumped into City has redeveloped Manchester completely. It's done so much. has redeveloped Manchester completely it's done so much same with Chelsea and the same thing's going to happen with Newcastle so to the people that on the other end of that what they see is an opportunity that's come in and benefited them but I think the key part is because those football clubs are so global such a global thing that feeling that you have with your club that affinity is such a pure and powerful thing and it's a tool that you know has been used

for so long in football to sort of get people on side essentially that's the key thing for me I feel that a lot more attention has to be brought into that and that is you know that is the job of the governing body is the league to make sure that you can't just buy a football club for the purpose of essentially painting your own image in a better light. Maiawa's relationship with football has shifted in a pretty fundamental way since last week. For him, ethical ownership is now a priority. But while he's gotten a lot of positive feedback on his piece from people who agree with him, there's also been a good amount of backlash.

There was people that praised it and said that it articulated how they've been feeling. And there's people that were sort of saying it was almost like stabbing in the back of the whole situation. Ben has been watching this debate play out. I've been following some of the conversation happening on social media and we talked to a Chelsea fan who told us that this whole thing has raised a lot of uncomfortable questions for him, that he can't compartmentalize the way that he used to. And I wonder, have you seen that sentiment more broadly and is this a turning point? So if you're a Chelsea fan, you've been a season ticket holder for years, you travel up and down the country, you know that Abramovich is going to be selling the football

club anywhere in a matter of weeks or worst case months. And your first question, wrongly, but I have empathy for it, is why me? When naturally the first question should be, why Ukraine? There's a real tendency for all football fans. We certainly saw this with the Newcastle United takeover as well, to discover a rich club wants them and then slap a Saudi flag on their Twitter handle and blindly follow whoever might come into their club or does come into their club because they think they've got money. We've had 14 years of being the cheapest club in the league.

Now we're the richest club in the world. I think it's absolutely amazing. It's fantastic. Something we needed, the team needed, everybody needed, the fans. And that's what's kind of interesting, that football fans are at a key juncture now and all of sport. So if a rich owner comes along, a lot of fans will say, well, as long as they don't ruin my football club, I'll turn a blind eye to their past. Now, maybe sports fans, not just as I say in soccer, might change their perspective and say, let's do our own due diligence and find out who these people are. What do you think are solutions that are realistic and would actually be helpful? You know, there are fans who've called for something

like the 50 plus one rule, like what the German Football League has. The fans here want a 50 plus one ownership structure, which would give them control of the club through a voting majority. Commercial investors would still be able to make suggestions, but they'd need the fans backing to get things done. So it wouldn't be possible to buy and sell the club because it would be majority owned by fans and an investor wouldn't be able to just come in and take over. Would something like that be helpful? wouldn't be able to just come in and take over. Would something like that be helpful? Those kind of rules can be helpful. And it certainly provides an element of fan consultation. And it certainly provides a voice to the fan base, but I wouldn't call it a long-term solution. I think the solution is in an independent body doing the vetting to begin with.

So at the moment, the Premier League is the decision maker for whether they think an owner or a director is fit and proper. And I think we need an independent body to vet all potential sales. And then secondary to that is clear-cut rules for once you've entered, how you can be kicked out if necessary. So Abramovich may change the process for that, because there's always been a feeling within soccer in particular, that once you're in, it's hard to push you out. But now Abramovich, who's been in and for a while has been pushed out that's partially because the government took the lead on it and then the premier league can reflect what they've done

and use what the government have done to clearly disqualify him but it may help the rules being rewritten to give the premier league more power if they need to in getting rid of people that start fit and proper and then don't become fit and proper. Right now, the Premier League is reviewing its own governance. And as part of that review, it's considering adding a human rights component to its owners and directors test. Any changes will need to be approved by at least 14 of the league's 20 clubs. How much power do fans have to change the culture of the Premier League and where its

money comes from? Fans have got massive power to change the culture of the Premier League and where its money comes from. Fans have got massive power to change the culture of the Premier League, perhaps less on the money side within their individual clubs, but certainly across the league, they proved with the failed European Super League, particularly in England, just how important their voice is. So for those that are not aware the European Super League was effectively spearheaded by Real Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus a series of top English clubs said that they were going to join it was a closed league that would protect

the European elite of soccer and And after the individual clubs, including Chelsea, issued statements saying they were joining, within 48 hours there were fan protests. The announcement of the Super League was met with widespread outrage from politicians, governing bodies, clubs that were left out. And fans were aligned, maybe for the first time, and came together to fight back. They held signs that read things like,

Super Greed, Football Belongs to Us, Not You. And within hours, All of the English clubs pulled out, and the fans played a massive role in that. This was an uprising led by fans. They protested at the stadiums of all six clubs that were planning to join in the days that followed, calling for their billionaire owners to be removed. To voice their continued opposition to the ownership of Manchester United by the Glazer family, some protesters soon decided to go removed. To voice their continued opposition to the ownership of Manchester United by the Glazer family, some protesters soon decided to go further and ultimately onto the pitch itself. So that shows you now that fan protests and fan voices are very effective and when they

do that you have a scenario where they are heard, especially in this world of social media. Since the Super League, a lot of fans have started to recognize their own power. And Maioa wants them to keep having the conversations that can drive change. You may not have made the decision, but you are a key stakeholder here. And I think that's why it's important that fans continue to have conversations openly. Loads of fans are always going to not agree, but it's important that even those conversations

are aired out so that it's clear to those that hold power, make decisions. You can't make those without fully taking in what your key stakeholder is saying. And that's all for this week. And that's all for this week. You've been listening to Nothing is Foreign. Our producer is Joyta Sengupta.

Our sound designer is Graham McDonald. And our showrunner is Adrian Chung. Nothing is Foreign is a co-production of CBC News and CBC Podcasts. Willow Smith is our senior producer. and Nick McCabe-Locos is our executive producer. Our theme music is by Joseph Chavison. If you like this episode and want to help new listeners

find the show, please take a second to rate and review us wherever you're listening. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at CBC Podcasts. I'm Tamara Kandaker.

Thank you so much for listening and I will talk to you back here next week.