Front Burner - Bonus | Nothing is Foreign: Inside a secret school for girls in Afghanistan

Episode Date: January 21, 2023

World news, local voices. Nothing is Foreign is a weekly trip to where the story is unfolding. Hosted by Tamara Khandaker. Since the Taliban seized power in Afghanistan in August 2021, there has been a crackdown on the rights and freedoms of women in the country. This episode of Nothing is Foreign shares the courageous story of a teacher in Afghanistan and her students — a secret class of girls between grades 7-12 in Kabul — who are defying Taliban laws that prevent girls and women from getting an education. More episodes are available at: https://link.chtbl.com/zMgUEUti

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey, it's Tamara. Just a warning, we do talk briefly about suicide and suicidal ideation in this episode, so listen with care. When you enter the class, it's full at least 75 to 80 students in one class. at least 75 to 80 students in one class. Our classes have a carpet,

and they all sit on the carpet, of course. And of course we use markers. And it's all done because some of our friends who are out of Afghanistan, they're helping us somehow so we could continue teaching these girls. This is Sahar. She's in her 30s and she teaches at a school in Kabul. The classroom she's describing sounds pretty ordinary. In the voice memo she sent us, you can hear her students, a group of preteen girls, practicing a mindfulness exercise, describing what's in the room.

There's a board, a carpet, three lamps. Sahar is asking her students to stick to just naming the things that they see, to help them quiet their minds. As ordinary as this sounds, this isn't an ordinary school. It's actually operating in secret. Because girls who are of high school age are banned from going to school in Afghanistan right now. age are banned from going to school in Afghanistan right now. This is just one of the many ways that the Taliban have dismantled basic rights for women and girls since they seized power in the country in August 2021. Now to South Asia and the Taliban government of Afghanistan has ordered an indefinite ban on university education for women. Girls in grade seven and above are once again banned from classrooms.

This week, the Taliban's morality ministry added to its list of restrictions on women's freedoms, announcing a ban on gyms and parks. We have some big aid groups now stopping operations in Afghanistan now that the Taliban is preventing women from working with NGOs. They announced this ban over the weekend. This has all been happening even as there has been mounting pressure from the international community on the Taliban to reverse these decisions. And despite the threat of more help being taken away from the country, which is already

in the midst of a major humanitarian crisis. This week on the show, Sahar is going to tell us what it's been like for her students to live under the Taliban, why she decided to defy the ban on girls' education, and what these secret schools reveal about the resistance to the Taliban within the country. I'm Tamara Kandaker, and this is Nothing is Foreign. The school Sahar teaches at has two campuses, and the girls are taught the basic subjects you'd expect, like math, history, and languages. But she teaches psychology, and she provides the students with counseling.

We're not using Sahar's last name because there's a lot of risk that comes with doing this work. She's defying a policy set by the Taliban, which might make you wonder why she decided to get involved in this work in the first place. The reason I started going to these schools and this thing came to my mind, because it's been almost two years that I've started studying reality therapy, which is based on choice theory, and it helped me develop good mental health, especially deal with all my fears that I have. Choice theory is based on the idea that people have the power to control only themselves and have limited power to control others. It encourages you to focus on the things that bring you meaning, the people in your life,

the places you love, the possessions you own. And reality therapy is a kind of counseling that's based on those ideas. And it's what got Sahar through an especially difficult time in her life. Because I lost my job, I lost so many friends. Some of them were detained for months. Some of them went to outside the country and we could not get back to each other. So overall, with the collapse of Kabul, everything was changed for me. But this theory helped me become again happy and reliable on myself and life. So I thought that it's a very, like, positive and good way to help these girls

because we cannot change others, we cannot change the society, we cannot change what is outside, but we can change our mindset. Have you seen this information help any of these girls in concrete ways? Like, I wonder if there are examples of how this has help any of these girls in concrete ways? Like, I wonder if there are examples of how this has helped any of your students in real life that have stuck with you. I had two students at one of the schools.

One of them once told me she came for the counseling. She said that the only reason that I did not kill myself, that you told me that if I have any kind of issues, I can come and share it with you. And she had a very, like, issue of not having enough bread at home and all this stuff. And at the same time, I asked her that, can you change the situation? She said that at this moment, it's impossible. Sahar kept asking questions based on the principles of choice theory. She asked the student who was struggling with poverty and a shortage of food at home if she could think of any options other than suicide.

The student eventually told her that she could sew and maybe she could work as a tailor. The student eventually told her that she could sew and maybe she could work as a tailor. So Sahar told her to go home and use her skills and to try the techniques of reality therapy, like looking at the things in her life that gave her meaning to see if they would help her see things differently. And after two weeks when I went, she was feeling so good. And the teacher told me that she was waiting for the psychology class to tell you that these other techniques could help her. She understood that she cannot end the poverty. She cannot make a bridge from somewhere. Neither I can bring that for her because I have

so many students. It's tough to help them all. But at least she could build good relation with her mother, with her sister, with her father. And at least there was not enough stress at home. And the only stress they had was poverty. And it helped her. Now she is better than before. She is not having societal thoughts. But of course, we are following up with her because when a person has societal thoughts and she's youth, you cannot say that it's finished and we shouldn't be following up. And one of other students of mine, her father is dead and she's only nine years old and once she came to me and she did not have enough clothes to wear,

like her pant was so short. And she said that the government tells us to wear long ones when I do not have any other choice. So how can I deal with it? Sahar says the student felt powerless. She didn't own any pants that would have been deemed appropriate by the Taliban. So she was crying and lashing out at her classmates. But Sahar reminded her to look at what was within her control. upset that you do not have enough clothes and your clothes are so short and all this because her mother was so busy in working and they were so poor and I'm sure she was not even considering of looking at her clothes. Then the other week that she came, she said that when I talked to my mom, she had a scarf and I mean she sewed it. The pant was sewed and then it was longer than before. At least she had a choice to wear something not to be so much upset about it and at the same time she once told me that you said that what we learned from the choice theory is there are so many things

which is not in our control and then she she said, did I thought about it? And I understood that behavior of my mother and behavior of government is not in my hands. But of course, my own behavior is in my hand. This is so heartbreaking. Both of these stories are so heartbreaking. But it sounds like in both cases, the things that you taught these girls really helped them cope. And in one case, it sounds like you both cases, the things that you taught these girls really helped them cope. And in one case, it sounds like you may have saved a life. It was because my expertise is not working with youth who have suicidal thoughts. But of course, because we did not have any other choice, they cannot go to other psychologists or psychiatrists.

They do not have enough money. So it's like, as I said, I'm learning and teaching, learning and teaching and helping. And it's like, at the same time, all the process is going on. The school operates in secrecy because high school education is banned. And how do you guys avoid being caught? Like, what kind of precautions do you have to take? Girls are not bringing any pen or paper with themselves to school. They have their books at home. They only come, we give them paper, they write the class and that will be left

at the school. Obviously, they will not learn so good, but they have no other choice because most of the times on the street, they are caught by the government and they ask them, where are you going? And if they see that they have the book, which is above class six, then that's a very big issue. One of the other ways that we try to like cope up with this situation is our neighborhood. They are so much supportive. And all the schools that I go, the neighbors and the girls themselves, they support each other. For example, if I see government people are coming, then suddenly I come and tell schools that there are some people coming and be aware of it. We have Quran at schools and when they come, we say that it's madrasa. And also there are tailoring courses.

So we can say that they are learning tailoring as well. What would happen if you did get caught? If the Taliban showed up unannounced and no one saw them coming? And what would happen if they found out that you were actually running a school? If we are caught, any of us, and it's proved that we are doing these courses. So according to current law of Afghanistan, we will be detained. You can't even imagine how hard and fearful that would be. Because as a person who's 35 years old, sometimes when I I even think of about going to jail and

being detained it's like tougher than end of the world for me because we hear that they beat so bad you can't even walk good after that you will be so much lucky if you are back to home after you're detained. These are the realities that we experienced all these one and a half years. So of course, all of us are so much afraid of this, but it's like that there is a therapy in psychology, which is ACT, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, it tells you that even at the worst of the time, even at the highest level of your fear, you can live with your values. And this is what we are experiencing now. We have fear. We are afraid and scared of the situation, but we are living with our values. And when you live with your values, you have to accept that there will be some consequences.

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She's one of the people that enables me to say that I'm good. Because as long as we have people like her, I guess the light is not dying anytime soon. Obeidullah Bahir is a frequent political commentator and teaches at the American University of Afghanistan. You may remember him from one of our very first episodes about the country's hunger crisis. He also started a campaign called Let Afghan Girls Learn, which calls on the Taliban to let girls go back to school. He says that secret schools, like the one that we just heard about from Sahar,

are actually pretty common and that the Taliban know they exist. We were expecting that after the university ban and the NGO ban that they would crack down harder. The problem is that this isn't a policy that's safeguarding these secret schools. It's local authorities who are aware of them and turning a blind eye. And that's never a sustainable model. It's never a safe model because you don't ever want to expose the girls or the teachers to a situation like that. But again, we're not in ideal circumstances, so we don't really have ideal solutions. And this is currently the best thing we've got. Why do you think these local officials haven't cracked down

on them? Why are they being allowed to stay open? Because unlike the popular narrative that this is cultural and this is abiding by cultural or religious values, people don't believe in that. Even the Taliban lower ranks and middle ranks don't believe in that. There is people in the leadership that don't believe in that. And we've seen that from the remarks that they've given. People like myself, we've gone on national TV and we've expressed our displeasure with the policies. And so have Taliban members on social media, on these networks. So, again, there are people in their ranks, majority, that see the utility of schooling, see the role of women in real life, in public life. But unfortunately, it's absolute obedience that supersedes everything. So many Afghans don't believe in this ban on girls going to school.

And it sounds like a lot of Taliban officials also don't support it. And they've been saying for months that they were going to lift it. So how have they justified keeping it in place? The justification has always been a very hazy, very mixed up. Some days it's the curriculum, other days it's the dress code, other days it's the logistical aspect. It's a cultural issue. It's a religious issue. So it's just you ask a person and they'll give you a different excuse. And honestly, we're sick of it. This is an ideological issue in a way where there are different readings of Islam. And even the Taliban leadership amongst themselves have different readings of Islam and what a woman's role in society should be. We've seen members of theirs come up and quote verses from the Quran stating that women should stay at home. But there are other scholars that would tell you that there are contexts to these verses, that there is a time frame for these

verses. And at the end of the day, we've had religious scholars, Tamara. We got the most esteemed religious scholars before and after the ban to come on large stages and say that these bans were un-Islamic, you know. So they really don't have a foot to stand on. But somehow it looks like there's a very specific idea of what Afghanistan should look like that the emir, the supreme leader of the Taliban has, and he's enforcing it on everyone. And the problem is that those that don't agree with him or are pro-education within the Taliban leadership ranks, they are very passive as well, where we expect them to take a harsher stance and sort of show discontent with the policy. The max we've heard is from a few members that have spoken out subtly or not so subtly against it. But at the end of the day, that doesn't amount to action.

But even if the people who disagree with the leadership were more vocal about it, how much power would they actually have? Could they push the minority at the top to backtrack on this issue? Well, I honestly see it on two levels. I think it's not just up to the leadership to do something about it as well. And obviously, there is a major reform required on the leadership's part. And that doesn't look like the current Amir changing his mind, but somehow the Taliban have to work out something within themselves to change these policies. But that alone wouldn't do it. I think unless the people mobilize and

voice their opinion on these very fundamental issues. I don't think the Taliban leadership is going to feel enough pressure because we've seen international leverages and international sanctions not really affect the Taliban much because if you look at the reports, they're making enough money from exports, from internal revenue to sustain themselves as a regime. And sanctions and sanction studies would show you that they very rarely hurt authoritarian regimes to begin with. They actually bring people closer to authoritarian regimes. We think that probably one pressure that might work is internal pressure, is the voice of the people and people taking a sterner stance, one that doesn't turn to confrontation, but it does show the government

that people are willing to go ahead with civil disobedience if their voices aren't heard. The last time you were on the show, we talked about how the U.S. had frozen $7 billion in the Afghan Central Bank's assets and the impact of Western sanctions on the Taliban. Those sanctions are still in place and the assets haven't been released. Meanwhile, the economy's tanked and there's a full-blown humanitarian crisis in the country. And you were just talking about how sanctions don't work and they tend to bring people closer to the regime. And Western diplomats have said they're not going to budge unless there are improvements to women's rights, including education. We, the Security Council, signatories

of the Statement of Shared Commitments for the Principles of Women, Peace and Security, have come together to express grave concern regarding the critical situation of women and girls in Afghanistan. We urge the Taliban to immediately reverse all oppressive measures against women and girls. So I'm wondering then, what do you think of that? Like, if sanctions are not the right approach, then what do you think the international community can do at this point that would be helpful? Look, what we try to do is we go up to both sides and we keep telling them that you're not helping. You're not listening to each other. You don't

trust each other. You're not communicating your expectations. You don't know your expectations as well. Look at the international community. What do they want from the Taliban? Ask every state and they will have a different answer. So what we tell them is sit with each other, talk to each other, be honest with each other, be micro-ambitious, build trust. The grandstanding politics is helping no one. It's hurting us in the middle. And so it's just that these countries, A, need to have a clearer vision. They need to understand that Afghanistan has its own idiosyncrasies. I mean, there was a report on Human Rights Watch today that Afghan cricket should be banned until they can let women participate in sports, not knowing that even during the Republic days, there were a lot of problems facing women. So change in society doesn't happen when you come and you enforce your own ideology on a whole different country with a different culture, you know. So expectations should be managed. And

because at the end of the day, yes, you might make a grand demand. You might be able to sleep better at night. But who did you help? Did you help that Afghan woman or that Afghan child or Afghan society as a whole with your choosing to make a grand demand? And if it's not met, opting out of the whole process? No, it is a country. You broke it. You own it. The United States and its allies came into Afghanistan.

They spent 20 years here. There is this very clear-cut responsibility that they have towards Afghanistan. And we're not saying, come and solve Afghanistan's problems for us. We can handle it. We will do it. But don't hurt us. Don't hurt this process. The frustration that Obeidullah is expressing here about using sanctions as a way of pressuring the Taliban to do the right thing and let girls go to school, it's something that Sahar feels too. Sanctions on Afghanistan means more people die. More people will be in trouble. It will not hurt.

It will not make them change their decision. Communication is one way of solving these issues, not sanctions. Sanctions will make it tougher for people. Right now, Sahar says the hardship being caused by the sanctions is also distracting a lot of ordinary Afghans from fighting back against the education bans. But she thinks eventually, this is going to change. The good thing about the past 20 years is that most of the people, they are thinking and they are accepting about girls' education, but because of the financial issues and poverty, they cannot focus on that. If it continues like this, because the poverty is rising at the same time, all the bans have made people more angry, angrier. So, of course, the situation will change because people will not have any other choice. If everything is taken from you, then finally you react.

So you're saying if this keeps going the way that it's been going, people will eventually break and start to revolt? Is that what you're saying? Yes, because when all the basic human needs that you have in your life, all of them, freedom is taken from you, food is taken from you, security is taken from you. You know, the worst thing about the current situation is that the families are not talking with each other and they do not have enough time for each other because they are always stressful and fearful and they think that what if I don't have enough time for each other because they are always stressful and fearful and they think that what if I don't have enough food and all this stuff and it's like that they are breaking the

family chain it's like that you are demolishing a society but step by step not not at once. And when everything is taken from you, freedom, your power, your survival, your love, and of course there is nothing that you should be happy for, then of course finally you will die or you will stand. The biggest fear that I have at this situation is about the societal cases and this is my big fear because the youth are having societal thoughts because the only thing they think of that what is my future even if I if I go to these courses what is my future now the universities are banned courses are banned your work is banned. You cannot do anything at all.

But the only thing you can do is just marriage and bring child. You're obviously working against this. You're one of the people that's resisting. What is your hope for the girls that you're teaching? Actually, the day we started, when I say we, I mean with all the teachers and all my friends who are supporting us. One of my friends, she lives in Iran. She told me one thing, one sentence, which is wonderful. She said that, see, Sahar, by doing these things and by educating them, giving them information about their mental health, you will help them rise.

So this is what makes me hopeful because what made me Sahar, what made my life today was education. Sahar, thank you so much and good luck with everything. Really, really appreciate you coming on the show. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for your time. I won't say that we are being resistant. We are being resilient. And we will stand by the values we have, inshallah. All right, that's all for this week. Thank you so much for listening. Our producer is Joyta Shangupta and our sound designer is Graham McDonald. Our senior producer is Elaine Chao. The executive producer of Nothing is Foreign is Nick McCabe-Locos.

Nothing is Foreign is a co-production of CBC News and CBC Podcasts. Our theme music is by Joseph Chavison. And before I let you go, I'm going to ask you to do me a different favor this week. If you like this episode, please take a second to share it with a friend or on your socials. We'd be very, very grateful. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at CBC Podcasts. I'm Tamara Kandaker. Thank you so much for listening, and I will talk to you back here next week. you back here next week.