Front Burner - 'Breonna Taylor's killing was an institutional one'

Episode Date: September 25, 2020

Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron on Wednesday said there would be no charges against Louisville police officers for the killing of Breonna Taylor back in March. Only one of three men involved, who has since been fired from the force, was indicted, and faces three counts of "wanton endangerment" for shooting into Taylor's neighbour's home. After the grand jury decision was released, protests erupted in Louisville. Today, host Josh Bloch talks to USA Today politics reporter Phillip M. Bailey about the implications of the grand jury decision, and why Taylor's name continues to be a rallying cry for those fighting against police brutality in the U.S.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a tragedy. And sometimes the law, the criminal law, is not adequate. That's Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron announcing that no charges will be brought against Louisville police

for the killing of Breonna Taylor back in March. Only one of three officers involved was indicted, facing three counts of wanton endangerment, and that's for shooting into the home of Taylor's neighbor. Shortly after the decision was released, protesters filled the streets of Louisville to express their anger, frustration, and sadness over the decision. Breonna Taylor! Breonna Taylor! their anger, frustration, and sadness over the decision.

Today we explain this latest chapter in the calls for justice for Breonna Taylor, and why her name continues to be a rallying cry for those fighting against police brutality in America. I'm Josh Bloch. This is FrontBurner. I'm Josh Bloch. This is FrontBurner. I'm joined by Philip Bailey, politics reporter with USA Today in Louisville, who's been covering Breonna Taylor's case for a long time. Hello, Philip. Hey, Josh. How are you? I'm well. And I want to ask you, before we dig into the grand jury decision and the reaction to it, tell me a little bit about Breonna Taylor, the 26-year-old emergency room technician who was killed in March. Right. Breonna Taylor was on the front lines of the COVID-19 crisis when really all of us were

sort of forced in our homes in the early days of the pandemic. She is someone who people describe as friends and family, as someone who's very caring, who would do her best if she saw someone in need. There was a gentleman in a wheelchair who did some physical therapy after being shot, and Taylor was his physical therapist. And he said, if it wasn't for her, I probably would be in worse condition than I am now. She always called me, contacted me, and made me feel hopeful about my future and my mobility and my life. But she was also a young woman who sort of was discovering and figuring out where she wanted to go ahead with her life and her future with her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who talked about getting married. talked about getting married, and certainly was someone who was trying to, I guess, break the cycle of poverty and lack of education in her own family and sort of break out of that cycle.

Born to a teenage mother, sort of all the basic struggles that come along with that, but someone who certainly would be considered a productive member of society. On Wednesday, a Kentucky grand jury announced it was not charging anyone for the police killing of Breonna. It was met by a pretty swift public response. We're talking to you now on Thursday afternoon, but what's it been like on the streets of Louisville since the decision came down? I don't think disappointment captures

the sentiment. The decision was announced that the grand jury was only indicting one officer, former officer Brent Hankinson, who had already been fired by Louisville police and really for the lowest level of charges possible wanton endangerment, not wanton endangerment of shooting in Breonna Taylor's apartment, not for shooting her, but for shooting in an adjacent apartment. The feeling that many people saying that, you know, drywall got more justice than Breonna Taylor. The immediate reaction from folks who are protesting for 100 plus days now out of Jefferson Square Park here in Louisville, the epicenter of sort of the government, metro government facilities was, is that it?

Is that all that we're going to see here? That concludes the business of the grand jury sitting for Jefferson County in September 2020. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. You may be excused. And it is. Daniel Cameron has made it clear that there won't be any other criminal prosecution involved in this case. Justice is not often easy, does not fit the mold of public opinion, and it does not conform to shifting standards. You already had one of the other officers, Sergeant John Mattingly, write this sort of scathing email to rank and file officers that was discovered by the media. this sort of scathing email to rank-and-file officers that was discovered by the media, Vice News discovered it first, saying how everything we did that night on March 13th was legally, morally, and ethically right. And Cameron saying, you know, I understand people aren't going to be pleased with the decision. I'm not basing it upon a motion. I'm basing it upon

the law. The criminal law is not meant to respond to every sorrow and grief. And that is that is true here. The officers were fired upon by Taylor's boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, and they were defending themselves. The feeling isn't just disappointment. It is underscoring a lot of folks who are saying this is just another example of how African-American life is not valued by the system. And that it took all of this just to get a wanton endangerment charge, which carries, what, one, two to five years at best. They don't care. They don't care. They don't care. They don't care. What kind of response did we hear from Breonna's family and their lawyer? kind of response did we hear from Breonna's family and their lawyer? There hasn't been an official statement sent by Breonna Taylor's mother, Tamika Palmer. She was invited to the press conference.

She did have a chance to speak with the attorney general. I can tell you that speaking to her family lawyers for the Taylor family, devastated, shocked, shell-shocked is the description of the lawyers that Tamika Palmer had to the announcement that only Brett Hankinson would be charged. Even though they had just won this $12 million settlement from the city, there's no acknowledgement in that civil settlement with that $12 million of any wrongdoing by the city. And there isn't any acknowledgement on the criminal side either. It's almost as if nothing happened, right? No one is at fault, basically, at this point for Breonna Taylor's death, not civilly and certainly not criminally. Right. I mean, that settlement happened just earlier this month, and she did speak at the

time of that settlement. What did she say back then about her hopes for the grand jury indictment, the investigation into the police officers that killed her daughter? Tamika Palmer had posted a very heartfelt message to Daniel Cameron on Instagram recently, making the comment about, you know, if your mother had to live through this, what would she do? Can you see my daughter as your own? Can you see her as one of, as your sister, as a member of your community? Tamika Palmer was certainly hopeful, right? I mean, she was certainly hoping that there would be more than this. As significant as today is, it's only the beginning of getting full justice for Breonna. We must not lose focus on what the real job is.

And with that being said, it's time to move forward with the criminal charges because she deserves that and much more. Her beautiful spirit and personality is working through all of us on the ground. So please continue to say her name. Breonna Taylor. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to ask you a bit more about, you know, there's obviously these different accounts of what actually happened that night that the police killed Breonna Taylor in her own home.

Her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, was with her at that time. And we know that it was a botched raid. But what does Kenneth Walker say happened that night? What Kenneth Walker says is this. It's March 13th, around 1 a.m. after midnight. He and Brianna are in bed. They're falling asleep watching TV. He basically says the TV is watching us at a certain point. Then they hear this banging on the door. This thunderous banging on the door. He and Brianna yell, who is it? Who is it? They get up out of bed. They get in the hallway. They're still yelling, who is it? Kenneth Walker has maintained both in the 911 tapes and his interview with police afterward that he never heard police say that they were police. The next thing he knows,

police knock the door down. He's already got his legally owned firearm with him after yelling so many times of who it was. Police bang down the door. He fires a single shot, which hits Sergeant John Matterly in the leg, severing his femoral artery. And that's when the gunfire, the hail of bullets start. He and Brianna are on the ground. He turns, she's bleeding, and he calls 911. 911, operator Harris, where is your emergency? I don't know what's happening. Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend. My God. And that's where basically she dies. Daniel Cameron said, the attorney general said yesterday during his press conference that she was killed by one bullet, actually,

even though she was struck six times in total. That's his account. Police say that they did announce themselves, that they did say they were police, even though they had a no-knock warrant, they still knocked and identified themselves as police. There is one neighbor who said that he heard police announce themselves one time. Evidence shows that officers both knocked and announced their presence at the apartment. The officer's statements about their announcement are corroborated by an independent witness who was near in a proximity to apartment four. In other words,

the warrant was not served as a no-knock warrant. Other neighbors in the apartment complex say they never heard police announce themselves. There's a deep level of distrust around the decision here to not indict any of the officers involved with Breonna Taylor's killing. And, of course, we see it on the streets of Louisville and across the United States. You've touched on this a little bit, but what else, what other specific questions do people have about the grand jury decision in this case that is fueling that distrust? Well, there's a lot. I mean, number one, did the attorney general pursue tougher or stricter punishment for the officers or did he simply leave it at wanton endangerment? The demographics of the grand jury. Questions such as… We don't know the demographics of the jury, of the grand jury?

No. Attorney General Daniel Cameron declined to identify those individuals based upon their race or gender. I know there's efforts to ask the presiding judge about the demographics of the grand jury. Questions, for example, did Officer Hankinson, if he endangered neighbors, how did he not endanger Breonna Taylor? Why didn't the attorney general investigate the issuance of the search warrant, which Taylor's family lawyers alleged in their lawsuit was obtained illegally or through fraudulent means, basically the police lied on the search warrant. Because if that warrant was obtained fraudulently, the officers would have no legal right to execute the warrant and be there, and that would affect the self-defense

justification. So there are, Josh, a round of questions that people have about how Daniel Cameron, conservative Republican, certainly someone who's a rising star in Republican politics, how he handled this case. At the end of the day, I think it's just, it's such a gut punch for people because there was an expectation after these hundred days of protest that something would come of this, that this was so egregious, this young woman, no drugs were found in her apartment, no money was found in her apartment, her sort of thin, flimsy connection to the main target of this drug investigation, her former boyfriend. There was really a feeling that this was sort of a perfect sort of thin, flimsy connection to the main target of this drug investigation, a former boyfriend,

there was really a feeling that this was sort of a perfect sort of case of abuse and overreach by police. But again, the attorney general's point is that police were acting in self-defense, and even by the police officer Mattingly, his own admission, they feel that they did everything right in their pursuit of this drug case. It's certainly, I think, a call for larger reforms, perhaps, but it shows you how embedded I think it is, this idea of can the system check itself? Because the point that I think a lot of legal experts were making to activists that they just didn't want to hear because of their own frustration and anger over this young

woman's killing was, can police with a legally signed warrant be held accountable for murder in the course of their job as police? And this is why I've always said, Josh, that more so than George Floyd, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, any of the other more controversial shootings, Walter Scott, we've seen in the country, Breonna Taylor's killing was an institutional one, from the investigation itself to this question of did gentrification play a role in why police were so animated in the pursuit of Jamarcus Glover, the focus of the drug investigation, the signing of the no-knock warrant. Do judges really overlook

and review these warrants correctly? Why did you need a no-knock warrant? Do judges really overlook and review these warrants correctly? Why did you need a no-knock warrant in a situation with someone who was considered by police's own admission a, quote, soft target in the investigation? It's from top to bottom a question of how this system behaved and how it works and how it sort of operates in our country. One of the most controversial parts of the grand jury decision is what you just spoke about, was the state attorney general, Daniel Cameron, saying that the two officers who did fire their guns at Breonna Taylor were justified in doing so. I mean, what evidence did he point to to support this? His main thing is that, look, when police entered, they said that they announced themselves as police. A cooperating witness says they announced themselves as police.

They enter with a legally signed warrant, and Kenneth Walker, her boyfriend, shot at them. From Daniel Cameron's perspective, once Kenneth Walker fires his gun, police are defending themselves. Taylor's family attorneys will argue or have argued that look how many times those officers shot. And their argument is at the root that the poison of the root was the way in which they obtained the war in the first place. When people say it's a tragedy, that word, I think, sort of masks the true conflict of our policies, our war on drugs here in America, and how police operate, and this sense of good guys versus bad guys. There are a lot of shades of gray in this story, in this case. So that word

tragedy, Josh, I think doesn't encapsulate the true nuance and clash of these public policies we have here, and the question of if Breonna Taylor had been a non-African American person, would she be treated this way about the system? Are there any legal avenues left for the family to seek justice? Not for Breonna Taylor's family directly. They, of course, already have settled the civil lawsuit. The criminal aspect is now complete. The only thing, the only hanging fruit that's still left out there is the FBI isn't investigating potential civil rights violations.

Breonna Taylor has become such a focal point in the Black Lives Matter movement. You know, there are countless celebrities. Beyonce, Oprah Winfrey purchased 26 billboards calling for justice for Breonna. For months now, we've seen and heard protesters chanting, say her name. And of course, right now, we're seeing protests right across America, not just in Louisville, in New York, in Atlanta, in Los Angeles, in Portland, just to name a few. And yet there have been so many cases of African-Americans being shot by police. What is it about Breonna's story, Breonna's death, that has made her so synonymous with this broader call for racial justice. These other shootings or these other incidents, Josh, are often patrol officer,

African-American individual clash, right? A phone call or someone looks suspicious. Someone got pulled over for a traffic stop. Someone's selling loose cigarettes. Someone gets pulled over for a bad license plate. Whatever it might be, it's a sort of small infraction initially with a patrol officer that escalates into something. You can point to a case like that and say, bad officer, bad training, bad apple. Or you can point to the individual and say, this person didn't cooperate. They didn't

comply. They didn't do what they were told. They have a past criminal history. They're a violent person. Whatever perspective you have about these incidents, it's boiled down to the officer and that individual. Breonna Taylor is not that. This is someone who had still a care and love for an ex-boyfriend who was an alleged drug dealer, still had a connection to him, still friendly with him, someone he still called upon when he was locked up. That's Breonna Taylor's involvement in this case. Again, no money was found, stash money was found at her home, no drugs were found at her home. And that sort of idea of having a cursory relationship to someone who might be a focus of investigation and for police, for the government to knock down your door and kill you,

I think has activated a different sort of response. Because now people who maybe go, who could go, well, I don't do anything wrong. I obey the laws. I'm a good citizen. I don't have to worry about these interactions with police. Well, Breonna Taylor was never pulled over. She never had a criminal background or history, and she's dead, right, at the hands of police and in this investigation. That's the part I think that has activated people, particularly African-American women, who are often at the crosshairs of these policies, what they're feeling like and why they're taking the lead of this movement in Louisville and really across the country.

What do you think this news now, how do you think it will shape or push the conversation around fundamentally reimagining or defunding policing? Being black is exhausting. And if you know even a tenth of black history, whether you're African-American, an ally of it or not, this doesn't surprise many African-Americans. It doesn't surprise me. Where do I think? I think that that movement will certainly stick around in some shape or form. I don't know if it will continuously be occupying the space that it's been for the past 100 days. I don't know if it'll be continuing to shut down traffic or boycott certain businesses. the mentality is so embedded in police culture. But I do think that the American people are skeptical of outright revolution and overhauls like this of no policing or defunding the police or significantly rolling back police department budgets out of fear of what that means on the

other side, the unknown. So I'm skeptical if the American left will be able to convince average mainstream Americans that they can overhaul the system and it still be a safe country. But I do know that's a conversation we're going to be having beyond just body cameras and chance of Black Lives Matter. There's a fundamental issue going on in our country with law enforcement and how they deal with certain communities. Philip Bailey, thank you so much for speaking with me today. Hey, no problem, Josh. Thank you. That's all for today. FrontBurner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts.

The show was produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Ali Janes, and Shannon Higgins. Derek Vanderwyk did our sound design with help from Mac Cameron. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound.

The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McCabe-Locos. I'm Josh Bloch. Thanks for listening. Back on Monday.