Front Burner - Brexit is a mess

Episode Date: November 16, 2018

Theresa May's Brexit plan is one step closer to reality. But members of the British Prime Minister's party are resigning and she could be removed from power. CBC London correspondent Nahlah Ayed explains how we got here and what it means for the future of the United Kingdom and the EU.

Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Mr. Speaker, what we agreed was not the final deal. It is a draft treaty.

It's not. It is a draft treaty that means that we will leave the EU in a smooth and orderly way on the 29th of March 2019. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. First came the vote. Now, a whole lot of chaos. I mean, I don't think that's an overstatement. Because after nearly two and a half years of wrangling over how to exit the European Union, the Brexit situation has really escalated in the last two days. The government, Mr. Speaker, is in chaos.

On Wednesday, British Prime Minister Theresa May's Conservative cabinet approved her Brexit plan. Then, parliamentarians reacted with a wave of resignations. The Brexit secretary, Dominic Raab, has resigned. He says even he can't defend this proposed EU withdrawal agreement. Now Theresa May could face a vote that could remove her from power. And there are even some worries about renewed fighting in Northern Ireland. It's all been so tough to keep track of. Everyone's frustrated. They're watching their politicians not just snipe at each other as they always do,

but within parties they're divided. The political situation here is in shambles. here is in shambles. So today on FrontBurner, we'll break down Brexit to try to understand what it means for the future of Britain. Hi there, I'm Nala Ayed. I'm a foreign correspondent for the CBC based in London. So it's been hard, I have to admit, to keep track of what's happening with Brexit. So I'm hoping that we can start this conversation back in June 2016. I know that the United Kingdom, which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, they had a referendum and they narrowly approved a plan to exit from the European Union.

And I'm hoping that you can take me through some of the reasons why this vote came about in the first place. Essentially, it was a way to settle a dispute. It had been years that the Tory party, the Conservative Party, was tearing itself apart over the question of whether the UK should stay in the EU, in the European Union. And so David Cameron, the Prime Minister then, thought it would be a great idea to settle this issue by promising to hold a referendum. It seemed to quiet his troops. It led to a great majority in the next election. So his purposes were served. And he seemed to be quite certain, and certainly we were covering it at the time,

and the way he sounded was that he was pretty sure that this referendum would pass and that it would be the status quo, that the UK would stay in the EU. The choice is in your hands, but my recommendation is clear. I believe that Britain will be safer, stronger, and better off in a reformed European

Union. And lo and behold, that day, that night, that afternoon, you know, there are afternoon papers here, the Evening Standard. I remember seeing the front page, the picture of Cameron voting with his wife, and they said that Remain would prevail. But soon enough, we heard that it was different. 51.9% voted in favor of leaving. And as such, I think the country requires fresh leadership to take it in this direction. And the people that wanted to leave, why did they want to leave the European Union? And the people that wanted to leave, why did they want to leave the European Union? There's a sense among them that the UK isn't living up to its potential, that it's being held back by having to live with, you know, what are admittedly very complicated and heavy rules that the European Union imposes on its members. And there's this feeling that, you know, among some of them, that the United Kingdom had some incredible past as a sovereign nation that it could reclaim if it left the European Union. The third reason, and one of the most divisive, but also one of the

stronger arguments for those who were in favor of leaving, was this whole issue of freedom of movement. And it kind of got complicated and tangled up with the issue of migration at the time, because back then, we saw this big migration of people coming to Europe. And so a lot of people were quite afraid of what they saw as an invasion of migrants and immigrants from all over the EU. And they kind of conflated the two issues. But it was very much about freedom of movement and people not wanting other Europeans and others coming here and taking jobs that perhaps British people might want to have. So the idea was to try and close those borders

so that the United Kingdom could control immigration. Precisely. And England and Wales voted by a thin margin to leave the EU, And England and Wales voted by a thin margin to leave the EU. But Scotland and Northern Ireland both decided to stay in the EU. Correct. And then does this mean, though, that even though Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU, they still have to go because overall a majority of people in the UK voted to leave? That's right. a majority of people in the UK voted to leave.

That's right. And it's actually the same conundrum for the city of London because this very cosmopolitan city also voted to stay in the EU. So a lot of people who didn't want this divorce essentially have to go through with it anyways. Exactly. And it is just like a divorce. And complicated like a divorce too. Yeah, and complicated even more than a divorce because it isn't just two parties we're talking about here.

We're talking about several sides on the European side because there's so many members of the EU, but also on the British side. So I want to talk about some of those complications. I understand that this clock started ticking after June 2016, and the UK had until March 2019 to figure out how they were going to leave the EU. Can you take us through some of the big sticking points around these negotiations? And I'm hoping we can end with Northern Ireland. It was a series of sticky issues. The first was, what was the divorce bill? What was the UK going to have to pay to get out of this marriage?

And, you know, there were arguments very early on about having to pay too much or not enough. And so that was one of the bigger sticking points. Other issues that people were really concerned about is that there are many EU citizens, because of that freedom of movement, who live in the UK and have a right to live in the UK. They didn't know, and some of them have been living here for 10, 20, 30 years,

and they didn't know what rights they would have if the UK decided to leave the EU. Would they be thrown out? Would they be able to claim citizenship? And the same thing for British people who live in Europe. So that was another issue. How do you solve that? Right. Because if you are a member of the EU, you can work and move around so incredibly freely. Exactly. And many French people live in the UK and have children here and so entrenched that they can't imagine going back to France to live there. So it really was an essential question to answer. And then finally, I mean, there are many, many other issues which we can spend hours talking about.

But the biggest, biggest issue, the biggest sticking point was what does the relationship look like after they separate? But also, how do you make sure that that change doesn't affect the island of Ireland? So I'm hoping that we can unpack Northern Ireland a little bit. Violence between Catholics and Protestants is this recent memory. And now people are saying that this Brexit deal could light that flame again. Can you explain that? There was an agreement, a peace agreement called the Good Friday Agreement. And this was meant to stop Catholics and Protestants from fighting. Those who believe in a united Ireland can make that case now by persuasion, not violence or threats. And a key part of that deal, the heart of it, was to remove all border checks between the two

Ireland's. There's Northern Ireland, which is in Britain, and then there's the Republic of Ireland, which is a separate country in the EU. So at the heart of that deal was to remove the border. So the idea of putting a border back in there is what raised the specter of violence. Now, the other reason is that that lack of a border has been crucial for peace there, but also crucial for the economy. So for example, I heard that, you know, there are certain kinds of products, beers, for example, that are made in the Republic of Ireland and they're packaged in Northern Ireland. And that depends entirely on the fact that there's a frictionless border there, that there's nothing. It's so easy. I was just there in February. It's so easy to pass from Northern Ireland to Ireland right now.

You can't even tell. Now, the good news is that very early on, British Prime Minister Theresa May and the EU said, we don't want a hard border there. But what they couldn't agree on is how to prevent that border from going up. Like, how do you do that? So they've spent the last few months trying to figure out the mechanism. How do you avoid a border there? So it sounds like there is a deal now, which includes some sort of solution on Northern Ireland. I understand Theresa May, she drew up this deal with European negotiators, with the European Union, and she got it through her own cabinet on Wednesday. But then, not even 24 hours later, all these ministers started resigning,

secretaries resigned, the guy who negotiated the deal appears to have resigned, and a leading pro-Brexit Conservative MP is called for a non-confidence vote to remove Theresa May from power. What we need is a leader who will say to the European Union, it is impossible to divide up the United Kingdom. What has made people so angry about this potential deal that Theresa May has created? It's a really good question because on Wednesday night it did look good, I mean, for her. It was clear that there was some issue because the meeting took five hours. But she came out alone and she said, you know, that her cabinet backed her.

I firmly believe that the draft withdrawal agreement was the best that could be negotiated. took five hours. But she came out alone and she said, you know, that her cabinet backed her. I firmly believe that the draft withdrawal agreement was the best that could be negotiated. This is a decisive step, which enables us to move on and finalize the deal in the days ahead. But as you say, before she even appeared in Parliament, the next day, people were dropping out. And the reason is this, that this deal would solve the Northern Ireland issue by keeping the whole of Britain, the entirety of the country, in line with EU rules until that border is sorted out. So it means that even though they're leaving the EU, they're still going to be living as though they are still in the EU, except they won't have any say, they won't be able to vote on any policy, but they have to live with the rules. So a lot of people said that this makes Britain a vassal state, that it's a catastrophic mistake, that it's being in the EU without having any say, possibly indefinitely, and that it's not what Theresa May had promised to the

people. So that's the reason that these people have been leaving Theresa May to stand there by herself with this deal in Iran. What impact do you think this is having on the country? I get a sense of exasperation from people. Certainly those who voted for Brexit thought that it would be settled by now. And those who don't want Brexit are absolutely desperate to be able to vote again. There's been this movement, a lot of young people who want the country to vote again, because they say, well, listen, we didn't know what was going to happen back when we voted. We really should get another crack at this. Because now we know the perils. Now we know what could go wrong.

And so everyone's frustrated. They're watching their politicians, not just snipe at each other as they always do, but within parties they're divided. And so, I mean, they're just shaking their heads. The political situation here is in shambles. Now, what's the next step here? What do you think happens next? Well, Theresa May spoke on Thursday and said she's not backing down. One of my cricket heroes was always Geoffrey Boycott. And what did you know about Geoffrey Boycott?

Geoffrey Boycott stuck to it and he got the runs in the end. In fact, one journalist, local journalist said that she's like the Terminator. She just will not stop. So unless there's enough of her own MPs who write letters to a committee in the party to try to bring her down, a vote of no confidence, she will keep going. So right now, the EU has set the date of November 23rd for their side to commit to this deal, to vote on it and to agree to it. And all that's left after that is for the British Parliament to agree on this deal. But what we've seen on Thursday in reaction to this deal, it would be an absolute miracle if this ever passed the House because everybody seems to hate it. Almost everybody seems to hate it.

Her partners who are propping up her government, who are from Northern Ireland, the Labour Party, a good chunk of people from the Tory party, all dislike this deal. So I can't imagine it going through the House. But that's the procedure. We'll see what happens. Nala, thank you so much for this really informative conversation and I hope you have a great night. Thanks a lot for having me on.

That's all for today. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced by Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, and Sylvia Thompson, with sound design by Derek Vanderwyk. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of FrontBurner is Nick McCabe-Locos. And I'm your host, Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening. For more CBC Podcasts,

go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was,

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