Front Burner - Brian Mulroney’s political legacy

Episode Date: March 4, 2024

Brian Mulroney, Canada's 18th Prime Minister, has died at the age of 84.He had an incredibly eventful nine-year tenure, from 1984 to 1993, at a time when the governments in the U.S. and the U.K. were shifting towards more deregulation and privatization.He was a champion of free trade, his work on the Canada-U.S free trade agreement, and NAFTA later, had an indelible impact on Canada's economy, but was also met with a lot of criticism along the way.Today, Peter Mansbridge, who covered much of Mulroney's time in office, is here to talk about his legacy. Mansbridge was the chief correspondent at CBC News for many years, and now hosts a podcast called The Bridge.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcriptsTranscripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. The time has come for me to step aside. I've done my very best for my country and my party, and I look forward to the enthusiasm and renewal that only new leadership brings.

Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. This is Canada's 18th Prime Minister, Brian Mulroney, during his resignation speech in 1993. He'd just stepped down in the midst of dismal polling numbers, nearly a decade after sweeping to power with a massive mandate. Whether one agrees with our solutions or not, none will accuse us, I think, of having chosen to evade our responsibilities by sidestepping the most controversial questions of our time.

Brian Mulroney died last Thursday at the age of 84. Preparations are now underway for a state funeral. His tenure as Prime Minister from 1984 to 1993 was eventful. You do not have a monopoly on patriotism. And I resent the fact that your implication that only you are a Canadian. Consequential. Prime Minister Mulroney talked about Canada's leadership role in fighting apartheid. When that question is asked, where did Canada stand?

Who stood with us in our struggle for freedom? The word Canada will come back loud and clear. While geography and the forces of history have made us neighbours, this agreement will make us all partners. Partners in opportunity and partners in the economic success that flows inevitably from free and fair trade. But also controversial. Brian Mulroney has enlisted the support of his entire family as he explains why he accepted

$300,000 in cash from former arms dealer Karlheinz Schreiber. Mulroney promised jobs, promised unity. He said health was a sacred trust. Nine years later, we have the worst of all of those things. There is a lot to talk about when it comes to Brian Mulroney's political legacy, and today Peter Mansbridge is here to help me with that. He is, of course, former chief correspondent for CBC News, and he currently hosts a podcast about politics and current affairs called The Bridge.

Peter, hi. Thank you so much for coming on to FrontBurner. It's such a pleasure to have you on to talk about Brian Mulroney and his legacy. Hey, it's an honor to be with you, Jamie. I love your show. So do most Canadians. So there you go. That's very kind of you. And, you know, I should also say I'm a longtime listener of The Bridge,

longtime first time over here. So thank you so much. You know, you are someone who covered Mulroney for most of his career. And I guess I'm just wondering over the weekend, as you reflect on his life and legacy, what are you thinking about? How are you remembering him? So many different ways, because you're right. I was there covering him before he became leader of the Conservative Party on his push towards becoming leader. Brian Mulroney, 1,584. He won the leadership, then he won the prime ministership, he won the country with this

huge majority government. As Conservatives and Canadians, we're going to reconstruct that grand alliance of West and East, English and French, new Canadians and old, and we are going to make a commitment to unity. He made certain things happen in terms of big change and big ideas. He lasted two terms, two majority governments. Not many prime ministers can say that about their success in politics. And, you know, I had an interesting relationship with him, as many people did. I mean, covering him as a journalist, we had our back and forths over time.

In the last 10 or 15 years, we became quite good friends. We talked to each other, not frequently, but, you know, at least once or twice a year. So I had mixed feelings over the weekend in terms of that. I mean, there was the professional remembrances, and then there were the personal ones too. I mean, he was a great campaigner. He was a funny guy. I've got to ask you this question.

Your views on Mr. Trump? I didn't hear you very well. He tended to stretch the truth at times. I mean, he went through that period where he was openly called Lion Brian. Yeah. where he was openly called Lion Brian. Yeah, yeah. You know, but at other times, I mean, he was standing tall on the domestic stage through free trade and Meech Lake and Charlottetown

and Acid Rain and the GST. I mean, as I said, you know, he decided when he had that huge majority in 84 that he was actually going to do something with it. Yeah, and I wonder if what we could do a bit of today is get into more detail on some of the examples that you've just talked about. And maybe a good place to start is the free trade one, right? With the signing of the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement in 88. And this was something that at the time, the country was deeply divided

about, right? I guess we don't really think very much about divisions around it as much now, but people really felt that it was going to turn Canada into the 51st state. And why was that? And how did Mulroney actually end up getting it done? It's an interesting journey because he was against free trade, certainly when he ran for the leadership of the Conservative Party. But he chose fairly soon in his term as prime minister that he thought it was the smart thing to do and it would benefit Canada in the long run. But you're quite right. Canada had been through free trade discussions in different formats and by name differently over its history with the United States. And it had always come to the, it's just going to turn us into Americans.

And so during that campaign, the main element of the campaign, which was in 1988, it became exactly that. John Turner, who was the Liberal leader, who was on the ropes a bit himself in terms of his own party, turned that campaign into this question of whether or not you wanted to erase the border. We built a country east and west and north. We built it on an infrastructure that

deliberately resisted the continental pressure of the United States. For 120 years, we've done it with one signature of a pen. You've reversed that, thrown us into the north-south influence of the United States and will reduce us, I'm sure, to a colony of the United States, because when the economic levers go, the political independence is sure to fall. So it was this deeply felt thing, this can't happen, we can't allow this to happen, and Mulroney had to fight for his life. That is lost forever, and that's the issue of this election, sir. I today, sir, as a Canadian, believe genuinely in what I am doing.

I believe it is right for Canada. I believe that in my own modest way I am nation building because I believe this benefits Canada and I love Canada. But he turned it around with a significant campaign and a lot of money poured into their campaign from businesses, etc. It was a different kind of campaign funding in those days. And they pulled it off. Bush used the occasion to promote the trade treaty, saying it would bring more jobs and prosperity in Mexico, Canada, and the U.S. We are creating the largest, richest, and most productive market in the entire world.

Read my lips, no free trade! Demonstrators outside didn't agree, saying the treaty will mean a major loss of American jobs and industries to Mexico's low-wage economy. It turned into the fact that every successive government has not touched the free trade. You know, they've improved it and they went through just this, you know, the current government went through a period of renegotiating the deal as well. Bit of a hell of a time. But he was involved in that too, right? And he was.

You know, he offered up his help to Justin Trudeau, and I think Justin Trudeau appealed for his help early on during those renegotiations. There's no conservative way to negotiate NAFTA. There's only a Canadian way. And it requires patience and thoughtfulness and a generous approach. You've got to listen to what the other two are saying. And here we are all these years later, and there's still free trade. And most people, not all, but most people have come to the belief that it was the right thing and a good thing for Canada. He also served as prime minister during a time when there were big political shifts in the world, right?

Ronald Reagan was U.S. president, George Bush was vice president, and then would become president after him. Margaret Thatcher was prime minister in the UK. And there was this movement towards deregulation, privatization. And where did Mulroney fit into that? He was close friends with both, Reagan and Thatcher. He believed in Reaganism, believed in Thatcherism. Had arguments with them, but believed in what both of them were doing and they were kind of mentors for him. And he used what he learned in those relationships at home. For years he preached that government is too big, that it must be cut down, that Canadians

can no longer afford all the expensive programs that government had taken on over the years. This message that Brian Maroney preached so hard is now being accepted by more and more Canadians. And especially the American one. I mean, I think you have to remember that even the 50s, the 60s, and the 70s, the relationship between Canada and the U.S. had deteriorated. It wasn't a good relationship. And then Mulroney came on the scene, and Reagan was there, and they developed a real friendship. And there was all those corny things.

There was an Irish summit in Quebec City and two of them singing on stage. And when Irish eyes are smiling Sure they see you your heart away. It developed into a relationship that kind of still exists today, where there's a bond between the Canadian-American leaders. A little rocky during the Trump time. For the most part, that relationship sealed over.

For the most part, that relationship sealed over. But there was a relationship. It wasn't sort of Mulroney bending over every time Reagan wanted something. He, in fact, took on Reagan on acid rain and convinced him that this was a problem and had to be addressed. It wasn't that long ago lakes like this were under attack, victims of acid rain from industrial pollution. But you don't hear much about acid rain these days. A lot of credit for this is going to former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. They include his signing of the Canada-US Air Quality Accord to reduce acid rain. It's very significant that our two countries should work together on all matters of environment.

And the same goes for Thatcher in a much bigger issue at the time. Well, I think you're going to talk about apartheid right now too, right? Exactly. Yeah. So that first one, just for our listeners, I'll say that resulted in the Acid Rain Treaty in 91. And I think that was essentially one of the first systems of cap and trade that was put. I think that was essentially one of the first systems of cap and trade that was put. And then this next issue, this bigger issue that you're going to talk about now is Mulroney's position on apartheid in South Africa.

Yeah, you know, I'm one of those who thinks that Mulroney doesn't get enough credit for his position and in fact Canada's position on South Africa as apartheid came to an end and Nelson Mandela was freed from jail. I think it's entirely possible neither of those things would have happened, certainly at the time they happened, if it hadn't been for Brian Mulroney. Thatcher and the Commonwealth, especially Thatcher, were against this idea of pushing the South African government to end apartheid and to release Mandela. But Mulroney wasn't. And he, you know, he went head to head, face to face, you know, fist to fist with Margaret Thatcher on this issue, confronting her in meetings and saying, you know, Margaret, you're on the wrong side of history.

Like, for example, Margaret would say things like, well, Brian, you don't understand that Nelson Mandela is a communist. And I say, well, Margaret, how do you know that? He's been in jail for 27 years. Because if you're saying that simply because communist regimes around the world are helping financially in other ways for the ANC. They're doing that because you refuse to help. Margaret, I'll bet you a dollar to a donut right now that when Nelson Mandela walks out of that jail, there's no more of a communist than you or me or Ronald Reagan. And he succeeded in pulling her back, and to a degree, Reagan as well. her back and to a degree Reagan as well. You know, I remember in, I think it was 2013 when Mandela passed, there were ceremonies in Johannesburg and across South Africa, obviously, and Mulroney

went as a guest. A number of Canadian prime ministers went. But I stood with Mulroney at the side of the road. It was actually on the second floor of a balcony overlooking the road where the kind of pre-funeral procession was going by. And it was a moving moment listening to him talk about his great admiration for Mandela. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked

to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cups. You know, you mentioned, we talked earlier about his second mandate, which I think was in 88, right? So he won it and then he gets NAFTA done. But his second term is way more tumultuous than his first, right? And there were some big controversies and failures.

And I wonder if you could talk to me a little bit about the Meech Lake Accord, the Charlottetown Accords that followed, where, of course, he was trying to bridge the gap between Quebec and the rest of the country, but it did not work. And what happened there and what were the reverberations of it? You know, it was a Quebecer and it came from a small town in Quebec, Bay Como. And so obviously had deep feelings towards the Quebec position in Canada. Was one of those who felt strongly that that situation had to be fixed, that when the constitution had been patriated in 81, 82, Quebec had chosen not to sign on, so they were kind of left out of the picture. And Malrouni wanted to fix it, and he wanted to fix it because he believed in

the cause. He also, I think, wanted to fix it because he wanted to be one up on Pierre Trudeau, who hadn't been able to do it. But he, you know, he called this conference, which was supposed to be a day, turned into like a week or more than a week, where all the premiers and the prime minister were in Ottawa, meeting in the old railway station across from the Chateau Laurier. The premiers are here to discuss Quebec's conditions for signing the Constitution, a recognition of Quebec as a distinct society, limits on federal spending, a veto on the amending formula, a role in appointing judges to the Supreme Court,

and increased powers over immigration. It's the veto proposal that may be the hardest to sell. They hammered away at this, and they came up with an agreement which would have brought Quebec back in. Now, there were things in the Meech Lake Accord that some people had difficulty swallowing, some of the premiers, but they ended up doing it. And Mulroney gives this interview to the Globe and

Mail. One of the things about Mulroney is when he achieved something, he was very proud of himself. Like very proud of himself. And he started bragging about how he'd done it. And he talked about having rolled the dice by having that conference and stretching it out. Yeah. Well, at first he denied having used that term. But then eventually he had conceded, in fact, he did use that term. And it blew up on him. However, yesterday evening, the last remaining hope that the accord would be ratified was dashed

when the House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador adjourned without a vote. We have fallen short of the unanimous consent required, and the accord is not passed. Yeah. People talk about how this sent support for Quebec separatism. Sorry, right? I mean, I don't think they talked about it. It did, right?

That's what happened. That's exactly what happened. And it led towards first the Charlottetown referendum to try and fix it. It didn't. And then that led to the Quebec referendum in 1995, which, you know, had the country hanging by a couple of votes. October 30th, 1995 was a night of maximum tension. When the first results came in, the Sovereignist side had a wide lead. It looked as if Parti Québécois leader Jacques Parizeau was about to realize his lifelong dream of separating Quebec from Canada. It was a tumultuous period.

And, you know, it was among, Meach was among the reasons why the conservative popularity just plummeted. I mean, we talk about how much trouble Justin Trudeau's in right now on the polls, and he's in trouble. But man, Mulroney would have traded his position for Justin Trudeau's position now

as he was in a worse position and never recovered. And eventually, as we all know, chose not to run again. And his party got decimated a couple of months later. I just want to talk about some of the reasons why, well, why he essentially tanked as hard as he did. I was young at the time, but I do remember people really hated Mulroney. You know, we were, of course, in the midst of a recession. People were losing their jobs. There were a lot of cuts, though, right at the federal level, cuts to federal jobs,

to spending on health care and education transfers to provinces. And, you know, what were some of the other reasons or the most important reasons, you think, why he was so disliked by 1993, especially considering what we talked about earlier, that he had such a mandate when he was first elected. Well, there were a few. I mean, it starts with people tire of leaders after, you know, they hit the sort of 8, 9, 10-year mark, and we've seen lots of evidence of that.

Recently, yes. Yeah. So that started. But it also, you know, free trade left a bitter taste in some people's mouths. They never recovered from that. A union protest rally in Ottawa. Here, Brian Marooney and his trade initiatives are the villains. Here, they don't believe the government line that but for free trade, the recession would have hurt more. Here, free trade is seen as the cause of recession. I started fiddling with some social programs because of the need to deal with the deficit situation.

There was a time when he wanted to do something to old age pensions and there was this big rally on the hill and he went out because he was pretty good at meeting protesters, but he went out there and he got trapped by this woman. She just took him on and all the cameras were whirling. This is the Charlie Brown reference, right? That's right, exactly. Yeah. And, you know, he had to back off on what his plan had been because this woman nailed him. Like, she really got him in one of those kind of moments that everybody could relate to. And by the end of that period of time,

he was in serious trouble that he couldn't recover from. Although, at the same time the thing that you have to say about him is he kept the loyalty 100% of his caucus and his party they never abandoned him and they didn't because he worked that relationship from day one as leader was it because they were scared of him or was it because they respected him? I think it was more the latter than the former. As he used to say,

you dance with the one who brung you, right? And the majority of conservatives were in their seats because of Brian Mulroney. The last big kind of mark on his career, I know there's lots that we could talk about, but the last big one that I want to talk to you is Airbus. These allegations of corruption that really cast a long shadow, I think, over his political legacy. You know, he spent a long time after his tenure as prime minister trying to defend the fact that he took hundreds of thousands of dollars from a German arms dealer.

And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about what happened with the Airbus scandal and what role you think it will ultimately play in his legacy now. You know, is it a footnote? Is it a bigger piece of the puzzle? You know, 15 years ago, I would not have said it was just a footnote. Today, I think it probably is. There's no doubt it was an ugly, dirty business that happened there, the full facts of which are still not known. It is known that he accepted cash from Karl Heinz Schreiber, the German arms dealer. Mulroney's appearance follows four separate days of hearings with Schreiber, who alleges he had an ethically dodgy private meeting with Mulroney to set up future business

while the former prime minister was still in office in 1993. Mulroney acknowledged he received $300,000 in cash from Shriver, but he says he takes full responsibility for the second biggest mistake of his life, the act of receiving the cash in the first place. He accepted cash in envelopes that he, you know, put in his pocket and moved somewhere. And just trying to, this is after he'd left office, right? This is not while he was prime minister. The deal may have been cooked while he was prime minister, but the movement of money. Right, and there are some questions.

He might have been in the House of Commons after he stepped down when he received one of the payments? Yeah, that's what I mean. There's a lot of mystery to exactly what happened, but it was basically was there or was there not a bribe paid to senior members of the government, including the prime minister, to ensure that Airbus got certain contracts. That's what the charge is. Let me say here and now, clearly and unequivocally, one, I never received a cent from anyone for services rendered to anyone in connection with the purchase by Air Canada from Airbus of 34 aircraft in 1988.

But it's kind of drifted off. And, you know, it's funny, you watch the last few days of coverage of this, and it's hardly mentioned, right? Yeah, I was thinking about that over the weekend. Not a moment, a proud moment, and not one that he ever wanted to talk about. Yeah. Or some of the other things that he wanted to talk about, including some of his failures. So, you know, political about. Yeah. Or some of the other things that he wanted to talk about, including some of his failures.

So, you know, political failures. Yeah. Peter, before we go today, one last thing that has been on my mind over the weekend that I would love to get your thoughts on is that, you know, Mulroney, he was a politician in what feels like a different time. And I just would love to hear your thoughts

on how you might compare his leadership style, the tone and tenure of the politics around him to the politics that we see in this country today. You know, very different. I think he's unlike any other politician that I've covered. He could make people laugh. He could make people listen. He could engage people in conversation,

which sometimes wasn't always going his way. But he loved that. He somehow managed to reach out across political spectrums. I mean, it wasn't a perfect time. There was lots of back and forth. And he mentioned before big fights, so it wasn't. Yeah, so there was lots of that. But he kept a friendship with people from all sides.

You know, there's a story about how in 84 when his party trounced liberals all over the country, I mean, as I said, you know, this huge, huge majority that apparently he got on the phone that night and the next day and was phoning liberals to thank them for their service in office when they had been in office, before he phoned his new conservative MPs. Now, that's pretty remarkable if it happened. But the fact that he never had any open revolts in his own party is a testament to how he looked after his relationships with them.

He's a complicated guy who had a really interesting time in politics. And as Susan Delacorte said the other day in her column, it's hard to imagine a Canadian political scene without Brian Mulroney in it. And this is including the time after he'd been there, long after. He was still a player right up to the end. He was still a player. Peter, thank you for this. This is great. It was a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jamie. Always good to talk to you. All right. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.