Front Burner - Canada and China, in the spotlight and shadows

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

On the sidelines of the G20 summit in Indonesia last Wednesday, a tense face-to-face confrontation between Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Chinese President Xi Jinping drew international headlines. Xi accused Trudeau of leaking the contents of their previous discussions to the media. The encounter was a decidedly public reflection of the countries' fraught relations when mounting allegations of Chinese meddling in Canada are causing further strain. Earlier this month, a Global News report alleged China funded Canadian candidates to influence the 2019 federal election. Last week, a Hydro-Québec worker was charged with spying for China. And the RCMP say they're investigating what have been called Chinese "police" stations set up inside Canada. Today, CBC senior writer J.P. Tasker returns to explain the allegations, how Parliament is responding, and how Canada could change its path forward with China during this historic low point in relations.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Allie Janes, in for Jamie Poisson. So this is Chinese President Xi Jinping and his translator on the sidelines of the G20 summit in Indonesia last Wednesday. And they're standing face-to-face with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, scolding him.

I continue to love you to work constructively together, but there will be things we will disagree on. Let's create the conditions first. This very direct confrontation comes during a surge of allegations about China meddling within Canada. A global news report alleges that the country funded Canadian candidates to influence our 2019 federal election. A Hydro-Quebec worker has also recently been charged with spying for China. And the RCMP say that they're investigating what have been called Chinese police stations set up inside Canada. To give us the details, I'm joined once again by CBC senior writer J.P. Tasker at our Parliamentary Bureau.

He'll explain all the reports, how Parliament is responding, and how Canada plans to change its path forward with China during this historic low point in relations. J.P., hello. Always wonderful to have you on the pod. Hi, Allie. Thanks for having me. So just over two weeks ago, Global News came out with this pretty bombshell report about Chinese agents allegedly interfering with our 2019 federal election. And that report cited unnamed sources and intelligence briefings that CBC has not independently verified. But what did the report allege?

Yeah, so as you say, it was a bombshell report. I mean, this shook the entire Canadian political establishment when they read in Global News that there was this sort of, you know, vast campaign of foreign interference, as Global called it, you know, vast campaign of foreign interference, as Global called it, which included channeling money, likely through intermediaries, to at least 11 different candidates that ran in the 2019 federal election. And Global was citing sources within Canada's national intelligence agencies, including CSIS. Apparently, CSIS had briefed the prime minister earlier this year that China wanted to play a role in the 2019 campaign, not only through trying to influence candidates, but also trying to push money their way, whether to fund them personally or to fund their campaigns, we don't know. But there are allegations that money was being directed towards some candidates. But also, there was talk too too that the prime minister was briefed

that the Chinese were essentially trying to plant agents into the offices of some members of parliament to try to influence policy decisions here in Ottawa. The report also alleged that there was an attempt to co-opt and corrupt former Canadian officials to try and, you know, gain some leverage in Ottawa where things have been icy. There is not a great relationship between Canada and China right now. So this Global News' reporting is really an attempt for China to burrow its way into our democracy to try to mix things up a little bit and to run amok. And so it is really prompting a lot of concern in the halls of power here in Ottawa.

I mean, in this report, in addition to boosting some candidates, how does this report say that China is alleged to have suppressed other candidates in our federal elections? in our federal elections. Yeah. So as you say, in addition to actually giving money and trying to co-op staff, there also were allegations that they were trying to really tamp down on some candidates that have been critical of China and the communist regime in Beijing. And we do know of past allegations from a conservative MP, Kenny Chu, who ran in a BC riding and essentially he was a very vocal critic of the PRC, of the People's Republic of China and the communist regime. Intimidations by foreign actors on Canadian soil, it's very real and pervasive problem. In my writing, it has adversely impacted the ability of ethnic minority diaspora groups to fully participate in experiencing the rights we hold dear as Canadians.

And during his short tenure in Parliament, one of the things he was pushing for was a foreign registry. So people acting on behalf of a foreign state would have to register their activities. Beyond calls for action and attention, the government has suggested no other plan to counter interference operations. Today I present my private member's bill, an act to establish a foreign influence registry. And China took that as a threat. And so Kenny Chiu has alleged that they really ran a robust campaign against him on Chinese language, social media platforms, targeting

Chinese Canadian voters in some key ridings, including his own in the Vancouver area. There was an effort by the PRC to try to undermine conservatives and prop up other parties. And that is something we don't know whether this is actually something that went on. Kenny Chu believes it is. But we do, we can look at the results from the last campaign and the Conservatives' incumbents in some of these Chinese-Canadian ridings, most of them lost.

But I should say, Elections Canada does not believe that there was any undue influence in this election or nothing that really would have changed the outcome of this election. They say it was a free and fair election. There may be allegations floating around out there that they do believe, though, that the vote from the last time was legitimate. Right. And the fact that ridings with large numbers of Chinese Canadian voters went to the Liberals, that's not evidence of like a causal relationship here, really. That doesn't mean that

it's because of these alleged influence campaigns. And the Global Report also notes that this alleged interference network included members of both the liberal and the conservative parties, right? Well, they don't actually, they say that there were parties involved from both parties, perhaps, you know, there were people involved from both parties, perhaps, but they don't say for sure. And we don't know, you know, allegedly China helped through intermediaries, helped 11 different candidates in the 2019 campaign. But we don't know which MPs those are, if those candidates even won or if they're from the liberals or the NDP or the conservatives or whatever.

or whatever. So this is not the only controversy about China that's unfolding right now in Canada. Last Monday, we also saw the arrest of a man named Yuesheng Wang, who worked at Hydro-Quebec, which is the provincially owned energy provider. And how was his arrest linked to China? So this is a big deal. This is the first time that a criminal charge has been brought against a foreign national for economic espionage. It's never been done before in this country. This is the first time police have actually pursued something like this. Essentially, what they're alleging is that this battery researcher, this guy who works at Hydro Quebec, was funneling trade secrets about the utility back to people in China. That he was trying to steal secrets about the utility industry in Canada and pass them on to Chinese intermediaries back in Beijing or in the Chinese economic sphere.

Chinese economic sphere. Mr. Wang allegedly used this position to conduct research for a Chinese university and other Chinese research centers. But it is very consequential that Canada is taking this action because we know that there is a history of China engaging in economic espionage, not only here in Canada, but around the world. And we have paid the price dearly for this. We know through various investigations into the collapse of Nortel, you might remember the telecommunications giant that was a huge presence in the Canadian economy, one of the biggest companies in the early aughts. Before Chinese company Huawei became the largest telecommunications equipment manufacturer in the world, a Canadian company, Nortel, was on top, with 70% of all internet traffic running on Canadian technology. China led a coordinated campaign to steal all of their data

and all of their secrets about how they ran the telecommunications industry in this country. And many experts would point to that theft, that intellectual property theft by China as why Nortel ended up going bankrupt in 2009, I believe it was. And so nothing was ever done about that. And Canada's changed its tune a bit, right? The law enforcement in this country are saying, okay, this character working for Hydro-Quebec, we're not going to tolerate this. And we're going to haul you into Canadian court and we're going to make you pay for it. If, of course, the allegations bear out and if they're proven to be true. But this is a potential fraud and them obtaining trade secrets and using computers for nefarious purposes, breach of trust with a public officer.

These are serious criminal charges that this fellow is facing. Right. Okay, so I also just want to mention one more story that's been in the news recently, which is that last month, the RCMP also said that it's investigating so-called Chinese police stations set up inside Canada. And, you know, from the media reports that are out there, what have we heard about these stations? Yeah, so this is a bizarre one. Essentially, a Spanish human rights group did some probing into this earlier this year and really came up with some startling findings that essentially, the PRC is operating so-called police stations in Canada and other countries in the Western world. And they're essentially a way for them to keep an eye on overseas Chinese, as the PRC calls them, or Chinese nationals who are living abroad. And the Human Rights Group alleges it's an attempt on the part of the government there to convince people who have been accused of crimes to go back to China to face justice. According to Chinese state-run media, 230,000 telecom fraud suspects were educated and persuaded to return to China from overseas to confess to crimes from April 2021 to July 2022.

But some worry dissidents and ethnic minorities will also be targeted. These stations are now are another tool that Beijing can use to repress Canadians here in the Chinese community in Canada. to repress Canadians here in the Chinese community in Canada. Questionable behavior for a foreign state to set up any sort of law enforcement operation outside of their country. I mean, it's absolutely outrageous if this is true. The Chinese government maintains that these are not police stations, that they're not trying to keep tabs on Chinese nationals for criminal activities. They actually say it's just kind of like a driver's license type spot, like a service Ontario, if you will, where you go and, you know, get your driver's license and supply some important information to the government.

They say, well, because of COVID, Chinese nationals have not been able to come back to China. And so we just set up these shops overseas to help them smooth out the process a little bit. But law enforcement isn't buying that at this point. And they have launched an investigation into this. They don't want so-called police stations run by the PRC operating in Scarborough and Markham and Toronto and in British Columbia. They don't want Chinese officials targeting Chinese Canadians who are living here. In a statement, the RCMP says it is investigating reports of criminal activity in relation to the so-called police stations. And it goes on to say it takes threats to the security of individuals living in Canada very seriously

and is aware that foreign states may seek to intimidate or harm communities or individuals within Canada. within Canada. So let's get to how all of these allegations are playing out in Ottawa now. What do we know about when Trudeau himself learned about the allegations, especially these global allegations? Yeah, so the election interference allegations that Global has published, we know that the Prime Minister has been a little cryptic about what he knew and when. But what Global has alleged is that he and other senior cabinet ministers, some cabinet ministers, were briefed in January about the Chinese consulate potentially

having some involvement in the 2019 federal election campaign. Now, what Trudeau has said publicly since that report, he kind of danced around it at first. As I said, he wouldn't really address specific questions about what he knew and when he knew it. But now he has since said that, yeah, I have been briefed in the past about foreign interference in our elections. But he said over the weekend and again on Tuesday in Ottawa, the prime minister also said that he did not have any information about funding federal candidates, that he did not know and was not briefed about China or its intermediaries potentially funding federal candidates in the 2019 elections. I do not have any information, nor have I been briefed

on any federal candidates receiving any money from China. But the very substance of this, though, is the Conservatives saying, wait a second. So if you were briefed about possible Chinese interference at some point this year, why didn't you come forward with that information? Why didn't you make that public? The Canadian people deserve to know that China was being a bad actor. We find out that the prime minister was told 10 months ago in January about hundreds of thousands of dollars that were illegally funneled to at least 11 election candidates. My question is simple. Who are these 11 election candidates? OK, despite that prodding from the conservatives, though, I understand we do have some level of cooperation across parties here.

So how have MPs agreed to look into interference from China? have MPs agreed to look into interference from China? Yeah, so as soon as this global news report came out, the MPs on the Procedure and House Affairs Committee called for an emergency meeting. That's the committee that looks into election related things and whatever comes up with respect to elections, PROC as they call it, is kind of tasked with doing this work. And so they called an emergency meeting. And they met last week, and they all agreed to study the matter, to haul experts in front of the committee, to have MPs grill them about what they knew and when and if there is anything to be said for this global news report. And the first meeting on this happened on Tuesday. They heard from the chief electoral officer of Elections Canada. He said that he didn't know anything about this, that the elections in 2019 and again in 2021 were free and fair and that the outcome should be trusted.

But that is not the end of the story. We're going to hear from more experts. MPs are going to be able to have their say and really go on a fact finding mission to learn about the extent of China's involvement in Canada's democracy. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. a financial vision together.

To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. You also mentioned earlier a former MP, Kenny Chu, who said that the Chinese government tried to smear him and he had been pushing for what he called a foreign influence registry.

And so now there's this conservative senator who's brought in another bill that would establish a registry like that. So can you explain to me what that would do? Yeah. So Senator Leo Houssakos, a conservative from Quebec, has picked up this fight. And it's easier for him because he's a senator. He doesn't have to face the electorate. He doesn't have to worry about a smear campaign from China potentially in an election. He does not have to go to the voters. He's there until he's 75 if he wants. He's there.

I think he's got another 25 years or more to go. So he'll be there for a long time. So he said, OK, let me take up this fight. And he's introduced legislation to start a foreign registry in Canada. Essentially what this would mean is anybody working on behalf of a foreign state or entity would have to report those activities to federal authorities, to the government. And the idea is, okay, of course, not everybody's going to report their dealings. They're not always going to be honest about it. But it does empower police in Canada to charge people

for failing to report their activities because a lot of this foreign interference and foreign influence talk that we have here, not all of it's criminal, not all these actions on behalf of China, if they're proven to be true, there's not necessarily something in the criminal code that police can point to and that crown prosecutors can use in a court of law. So that's something that could be done. It has been done in other countries and other Five Eyes partners or other partners that we share intelligence on. The United States has a national foreign registry and it was actually used in the Trump administration to process senior people that used to be around Trump who are working on behalf of foreign players, including Paul Manafort, his former campaign manager. He was working for pro-Russian elements in Ukraine, did not declare those activities to the foreign registry, and he was ultimately prosecuted and sentenced. You know, I can imagine that this may be something that would not, like, perhaps improve relations

between China and Canada. So let's talk a little bit about where things are at between Canada and China, because, I mean, there have been, been like a number of other massive collisions between the two countries in the last few years. And, you know, these tensions showed in a big way on the world stage last week when Chinese President Xi Jinping scolded Trudeau on the sidelines of the G20 conference in Indonesia. I mean, on its surface, at least, what was that confrontation about? Essentially, Xi Jinping was alleging that the conversation that he had with the Prime Minister, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, where the details of that conversation were leaked to the press. And he was concerned that when the prime minister's office in Canada told reporters that prime minister raised Chinese interference in Canadian affairs, he was concerned that that was betraying some sort of trust between Xi and Trudeau and that he didn't like it.

I thought it was a bit odd and curious that Xi Jinping, a man not exactly known for transparency and openness, did all this right in front of a Canadian news camera. And he had to have known that that camera was right there in front of the two men as they were having this discussion. And I think, you know, you can debate what it meant or what it did not mean. But I think it's probably fair to say that she knew that this dressing down would be picked up by the Canadian press and it could be used over here for a domestic audience. Maybe he thought he was shaming the prime minister. Maybe he thought that would be something embarrassing for the prime minister, that it would kind of sully his reputation among Canadian voters to have a big man like Xi Jinping dressing him down on the sidelines of this big summit. That could be one kind of answer as to why this went down.

But I think that, you know, probably for a domestic audience, it's not all that bad for Trudeau, right? I mean, she isn't exactly a trusted figure here. So I think people are happy that the prime minister was being honest with Canadian reporters about what he discussed with the Chinese president. It wasn't necessarily something of a problem. But it kind of does tell you how low Trudeau's standing is among Xi Jinping in China right now that he doesn't mind dressing him down and, you know, doing all this sort of thing that is, you know, not very diplomatic. I mean, there's a lot going on between US President Joe Biden in China right now and Xi Jinping was there shaking his hand, smiling for the cameras. They allegedly had a good meeting. Both sides said that things were productive. We did not hear that sort of thing from Trudeau's meeting with Xi Jinping. OK, so Justin Trudeau's liberals are expected to put out this long-awaited Indo-Pacific strategy, probably in the coming weeks. And that would, you know, as I'm understanding it, basically describe this government's approach to China going forward. going forward. So how can we expect this new strategy to be different from, you know, how the liberals were approaching China in the past? What's happening is essentially a very, very low point. And so Canada and other Western countries are saying we need to band together and work with

like-minded allies in the Indo-Pacific region, which is what they call it now. They don't call it Asia-Pacific, they call it Indo-Pacific, which is also kind of a diplomatic shift as well. They want to cozy up to countries like Japan and South Korea, and in some instances, India, you know, work closer with Australia and New Zealand and Malaysia and Singapore and Thailand and some countries where relations are not so frosty, you know, where Canada isn't frozen out, because clearly things aren't going so well with Beijing right now. And it's a big shift for this government and for the Liberal Party of Canada in general. Liberals historically have been much more open to China than the Conservative Party has been. And that's for

sure. And it really all goes back to Pierre Elliott Trudeau, the Prime Minister's father, For sure. And it really all goes back to Pierre Elliott Trudeau, the prime minister's father, normalizing relations with the PRC in 1970. He was the first prime minister, Canadian prime minister, to travel to China in 1973. That was a big deal. You know, China was a much different country than it is now. And for Pierre Trudeau to make that trip, wow, that was big. And then even Jean Chrétien did something similar in the 90s with this big Team Canada trade mission to China. Justin Trudeau ran in 2015 on a platform of trying to broker some sort of free trade deal with China. We've agreed to launch exploratory talks towards a potential free trade agreement between Canada and China.

between Canada and China. And further to this, we set an ambitious new goal to double bilateral trade between Canada and China by 2025. He went to China in 2017 to kind of start the process of a free trade deal. We look at this trade deal the way it is, as a significant potential trade deal that's impacts will be measured in decades and generations and not just months or years. And now they're completely iced out. You know, it's a huge about-face.

It's a massive change. Obviously, China taking Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig into captivity for more than a thousand days changed everything. And so now they're saying, okay, we can't really rely on Beijing anymore. And I mean, if they do kind of transition away from China with this new strategy, what kind of impacts do you think we can expect that to have on Canadians here at home? on Canadians here at home? Well, there could be consequences. I mean, China is not above economic coercion. They have done this before. They've done it to us before. They held up canola exports for a long time. Australia is kind of a few years ahead of the rest of the Western world on this. Australia has faced an economy-wide assault by China. China essentially froze their exports for a long period of time.

And Australia does a lot of trade with China. They send them a lot of iron ore. They send them oil and gas and coal and agricultural products and all this. It's a big business for Australia. And China said, nope, we're going to block a lot of this. They slapped anti-dumping duties on a bunch of Australian products, including barley, which is like a billion dollar industry for Australia. So there could be economic consequences to upsetting the apple cart. But what's interesting is, and there has been work on this, Australia paid an

economic price in the short term, but they were able to pivot to other countries. They were able to send their goods, not to China, but to to other markets and that they really didn't have that much pain to pay in the end. They didn't really pay that big a price in the end because they found other friendly nations to sell their goods to. And so this experience for China really is at the heart of what Chrystia Freeland, Deputy Prime Minister in this country and other allies are calling a friend-shoring approach, not offshoring, but friend-shoring, working with like-minded countries, working with partners, working with other democracies, where we're less reliant on a country like China. All right. JP, thank you so much for talking to us about this. And obviously,

it's something that we'll be continuing to watch. Thank you so much for talking to us about this. And obviously, it's something that we'll be continuing to watch. Thank you so much for having me. All right, that is all for today. I'm Allie Janes, in for Jamie Poisson. Thank you for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.