Front Burner - Canada-China tension high as diplomats expelled

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

A growing crisis between Canada and China has led to the expulsion of diplomats from both countries, following revelations that a Chinese official reportedly targeted Canadian MP Michael Chong’s family. CBC parliamentary reporter Catharine Tunney joins Front Burner to sort through what happened to Chong, what Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his government knew about the 2021 incident, and how the two countries are now handling it. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Alex Panetta. It's the political crisis that just keeps growing. After months of bombshell allegations about China's purported interference in Canadian politics,

this week we hit the retaliation stage. Canada is tossing a Chinese diplomat out of the country Joe way has just a couple of days to pack his bags and leave in response China has issued a similar order to a Canadian diplomat in Shanghai Jennifer Lynn Lalonde this is all because of yet another big revelation that according to ceases the family of a canadian mp was quote targeted by the people's republic in july 2021 and not just that but nobody bothered to tell the mp michael chong or his family and if you believe the prime minister ceases didn't tell him either my parliamentary colleague catherine tunney is here to go through all of this with me today My parliamentary colleague Catherine Tunney is here to go through all of this with me today.

Hi Catherine. Hello there. Well, I want to begin with Michael Chong, the Conservative MP. I remember from my time in Ottawa, he's usually pretty mild-mannered, thoughtful, not the most partisan guy. Yet this Member of Parliament for Wellington-Halton Hills is at the center of a storm. Why is he the one being targeted by the People's Republic of China? The story kind of dates back to early 2021, and he, you know, sponsored a motion in the House to recognize China's treatment of Uyghurs as the Muslim minority in that country who are subject to just absolutely horrible conditions, to label

China's treatment of the Uyghurs a genocide. And he was sanctioned by China soon after. They kind of let him know that they were not pleased by his actions in the house. And now we know from the Globe and Mail's reporting that that anger went a lot further. And last week, they published a report that China kind of wanted to know more information about Chong's family that are still living in Hong Kong. He just wrote it in a document and the Globe was able to see that, you know, China was doing that to make an example of Chong and to maybe try to make sure that other MPs didn't do the exact same thing and didn't introduce motions or legislation that, you know, were anti-PRC. It's worth noting that as a member of the Conservative Party, Chong was a critic of foreign affairs, so international issues were part of his opposition role. But all of this happened a couple of years ago. Yet he just learned about this whole incident now, two years later,

when the Globe and Mail, which you mentioned, broke this story and it reached out for its reporting. What is at issue is that the government did nothing about a person in Canada that was targeting me and my family and targeting other members of parliament. The government knew about this two years ago and they did nothing. They didn't tell me about this particular individual in Toronto, Mr. Wei Zhou. And they didn't expel this particular individual. In fact, they continued to accredit this individual as a diplomat. What do we know specifically about what would have happened to his family? Yeah, so the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, CSIS,

believes that China's intelligence agency was trying to find more information, maybe put together a folder about Chong's family, part of his family that still lives in Hong Kong. And as part of that, Xiaowei, a Chinese diplomat who was working in Canada, was part of that plot, that campaign, to put together some information and potentially intimidate his family who are still on Chinese soil. Okay. Now, the word targeting has done a lot of heavy lifting this week in Canadian politics because it can mean a bunch of things. As you said, it can mean digging for dirt. It could lead all the way up to acts of violence. It could, you know, attacking someone. But when we talk about Chong's family being targeted,

we're talking about information gathering, right? Is it clear, you know, what happened with that information since 2021? Yeah, it's not clear, actually. So we don't really know what has happened beyond what was in that CESIS document back in 2021. As I said, you know, is it a folder that's sitting on someone's desk? It's probably not great, you know, that authoritarian government has put together, you know, maybe a profile, but we don't have any information to suggest that the threats went any further.

Okay, so what do we know about Chong's family? What has he said about his family in Hong Kong? Yeah, so he's actually been very clear that he has cut off contact with him. I, like many, many Canadians across the country whose family lives in authoritarian states have had to face the difficult dilemma of how to protect the family in these authoritarian states.

And so out of an abundance of caution, years ago, when the PRC started violating the Sino-British agreement on Hong Kong and started turning one of the freest cities in the world into an authoritarian state, made the decision to cut off contact with my family. And so I don't know exactly what is going on. And I've chosen to take that decision out of an abundance of caution. It's not really clear either, you know, how close they were before or how immediate family they are. I mean, his father left and immigrated to Canada back in the 1950s. That being said, be it second cousins, be it

cousins, you know, it's probably not a great feeling to know that something that you did, that you stood up in the House of Commons on principle, is now impacting anyone that you have relations with. Yeah. Now, Michael Chong says he was given a general briefing on this issue by CSIS before his family was targeted. Do we know why they didn't follow up with him directly? Yeah, so those early briefings, you know, the security agency calls them defensive briefings. They're very educational. They're very kind of surface level, you know, what to look out for.

Make sure that you're not, you know, having public conversations because you might get, you know, some might be listening in too. having public conversations because you might get, you know, someone might be listening in too. He is very clear that those briefings that he was getting back in 2021 never shared any information about his family or the diplomat that was still in Canada. That might in part be because CSIS is very limited in what information they can share. They are mandated to share information with the federal government to give them advice and to share intelligence. And even then, it's those with clearance. It's not every single public servant gets a CSIS briefing. So they are limited in what they can say.

And honestly, the head of CSIS actually has been open that he thinks that's a hindrance. He can't necessarily share information with those who are a target. So that might speak to why it was so limited at the time. Yeah, I usually work in Washington, and the CIA meets regularly with members of Congress and they have these intelligence committees and they just get basically briefed all the time. There are also a lot of leaks from those committees, but that's another story. Let's talk about the government then, which was briefed by CSIS. Trudeau says he didn't know.

What about the people around him? Do the people around the prime minister know about these threats to Mr. Chong's family? Yeah, well, figuring that out has kind of been a roller coaster. So, you know, midweek last week, Trudeau kind of told Canadians, told reporters that the information about Chong never was briefed out of CSIS, never kind of left CSIS. It stayed within there. I learned following the media reports on Monday morning, I asked CSIS, you know, what is this briefing? What is this supposed story that is out in the media from a leak? What do we know about it? We then, you We then retraced over the past couple of days what this was, that CSIS knew about certain things, didn't feel that it reached a threshold

that required them to pass it up out of CSIS. Well, then you move one more day to Thursday, and Chong stands up in the House of Commons and says, no, actually, I just got a phone call from your national security advisor saying the information was shared with departments at the time, including the Privy Council office. I've just been informed by the national security advisor that the CSIS intelligence assessment of July 20th, 2021, was sent by CSIS to the relevant departments and to the National Security Advisor in the PCO.

This report contained information that I and other MPs were being targeted by the PRC. This contradicts what the Prime Minister said yesterday. He said CSIS made the determination... It does seem like information was shared. It just wasn't then shared up to the Prime Minister, if we take him at his word. And the Public Safety Minister has also been very clear that he, like all Canadians, found out about this information on Monday when he read about it in the Globe and Mail. I can also assure him

that as the prime minister said, and I said earlier this week, that we found out on Monday of this week, which is why we acted very quickly and decisively to reach out directly. Okay, so you mentioned the Privy Council office. That's his department. I mean, for listeners

who don't follow politics closely, cabinet ministers get a department like, you know, Global Affairs or Health Canada or National Defense. The prime minister gets the Privy Council office. And I want to talk about the prime minister. His department knew about this and it didn't tell him why. No, I think we would all feel better if we knew the why of that. I mean, there are a few, you know, factors to put out there before we kind of dig into it. So the summer I mean, there are a few, you know, factors to put out there before we kind of dig into it. So the summer of 2021, there was a bit of musical chairs going on in the National Security Advisor's office. You know, there were between retirements and then

Jody Thomas, who was a current advisor before she was officially announced. So you had a guy filling in. Well, then it seems that he goes on vacation and you have a guy filling in for the guy filling in. That being said, those offices, you know, the advisor is one person, but they have an office. So there are people, you know, who should have maybe raised that alarm. And you also have to remember that this is 2021. The two Michaels are still in detention. You would think you would hope that when you have intelligence suggesting that, you know, an MP's family is being targeted, you have intelligence suggesting that, you know, an MP's family is being targeted, that you would pass that briefing on with, you know, maybe some highlighters and some asterisks to make sure that

it continues to go up the chain. So, we don't really know why. And actually, today, Public Safety Minister Marco Minichino, you know, said his office, of course, is reviewing this flow of information. But then he told reporters, we might not be able to make it public the results of that review, which obviously I think got people riled up in the scrum. And there were a lot of pointed questions after that. I think lots of Canadians want to know, was this a mistake?

Probably an unacceptable mistake. But was it a mistake? Or is this a sign of a culture within this government, within the prime minister's office when it comes to national security information and how that gets shared? Well, you mentioned a couple of things happening in 2021, including the two Michaels. Those are the Canadians who were detained in China amid yet another major diplomatic crisis between Ottawa and the People's Republic. But something else was happening that year. It was an election year. And I'm just wondering whether anyone in Ottawa has raised the possibility that the prime minister was shielded from some information. He had plausible deniability if

anyone asked him about it, because I'd imagine nobody wants to have the prime minister asked about this on the campaign trail. Wouldn't have been fun for him. Is there been any indication that maybe he was shielded from certain information for his own political good? You know, I think there have been conversations publicly and maybe not so publicly about this government's approach to national security. You know, I think leading up to the election, people have maybe raised it, but I think the bigger question that people are asking, including Chong, of course, who is the center of this, is that why was the system set up this way? I think the fact that he didn't know is his responsibility.

When a new government is formed, the government, the prime minister is responsible for setting up the flows of information in the government, responsible for setting up the machinery of government, as they say. And so clearly he set the government up and away so that he would not be told about serious national security threats. At one point, Chong said, you know, it seems like the prime minister doesn't seem that he wants to be bothered with this information. This foreign interference is happening to Canadians across the land who suffer in silence as their government can't even be bothered to learn about

national security threats that PRC diplomats are conducting across the land. Of course, the prime minister would deny that. But I think that seems to be the biggest question coming out of Ottawa is why was the system set up this way? Because, of course, this is not the only national security issue that we've been talking about in the last few weeks here. They're having concerns about, you know, the 2021 election and then also the 2019 election. And again, questions about accountability and how seized this government was with that. So I think that's some of the most pointed questions that seem to be

aimed at this government. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couups. Okay, so now we know that a lot of civil servants knew about this, but I'm wondering, did any elected people know? Like at public safety, did any minister find out about this as well? No, if you go through the list of who, you know, was in office at the time, it was Bill Blair was the public safety minister.

He says that he was never briefed on this. It would have been useful to have that information at the time, but it was never shared with me during that period of time. That he did get briefings in general about Chinese tactics and foreign interference, but he never was briefed on the details of this case. Of course, we have heard the prime minister say that multiple times. Information that was released on Monday through the media never made it to me, to my office, or to the minister at the time. The current public safety minister, Marco Minichino, adamant that he didn't know about it,

and foreign affairs minister, Melanie Dulli, again saying that she learned about this by reading the Globe and Mail. When did you first find out that a PRC diplomat was targeting me and my family? I've learned it through the news. After all of this came out last week, Trudeau set up an unusual meeting with CSIS director David Vigneault and Michael Chong. What happened at that meeting? Yeah, so they sat down.

The prime minister was there for about 10 minutes, according to the story. And unlike the briefings that he was getting before, it seems that they gave him a much more fulsome picture of what was happening. You know, that being said, it had been published in the newspaper. And it's not clear yet if he actually got so many bonus nuggets in there. So, obviously, there was a decision, you know, be classified information or not that, you know, Mr. Chang needed to have a briefing. But yeah, he said that was, you know, after reading it in paper and then getting that briefing. That's when he got the full sense of things, not when he was briefed back in 2021. Okay, so let's get back to the expulsion of this Chinese diplomat, Zhou Wei.

What exactly has he specifically been accused of in this entire targeting affair? Yeah, it's a little bit vague, but according to the reporting, you know, that he was involved in this plot to target Chong and gather information. We don't have a lot on his methods or how successful he was, but it is enough that the Canadian government feels that it's true and that they are acting on it. Canada has declared the individual in question today, Prasanna Nongrada. Our government has been clear we will not tolerate any form of foreign interference in our internal affairs.

Melanie Jolie, the foreign affairs minister, saying, you know, it was a form of foreign interference in our internal affairs. Melanie Jolie, the foreign affairs minister, saying, you know, it was a form of foreign interference in Canada's internal affairs. So, yeah, he has to get on a plane within the next, you know, by the week's end. Okay. And what else do we know about him? I mean, do we know what his role was at the Chinese consulate in Toronto? I've seen a couple of pictures of him online, but I'm wondering what he did. Yeah, so online, he's simply kind of listed as a diplomat with the consulate. Through the Globe and Mail's reporting, they have sources who say that, you know, that's not really his full title.

That, in fact, he was, you know, an intelligent actor, which is just, you know, a fancier way of saying he was a spy. And, of course, based out of the Toronto consulate, which has been tied, basically, anytime there's a national security scandal or a case in Canada, it usually comes out of the Toronto Consulate. So he was tied to that one. Outside of that, I think he is a pretty good spy because there's not a whole lot bigger picture, the Cold War component to this whole thing. It's been years since a diplomat was kicked out of Canada. Now, there's a lot of tough talk coming from both sides. An opinion piece in the Global Times, a Chinese state-affiliated publication, says China, and I quote here, China will not beg Canada to maintain normal relations, and we have no reason to please this American puppet state. If it wants to cause trouble, let it be.

So what are the concerns for escalation here? You know, I think everyone is kind of holding their breath, hoping that it stays at the current state and that it doesn't further escalate. Of course, this week, China announced that, you know, it will send a Canadian diplomat back home, Jennifer Lin-Lilan. She also has until May 13th to make her way back. Before this decision was made, there was lots of talk about, you know, the economic impacts and then we have to weigh this. We know that when China is really pissed off that they will use their economic might. We have seen tariffs. We have seen trade wars. Of course, we have the horrible case of the two Michaels when China was quite upset

about the Meng Wanzhou case. So we have seen them escalate. And today they did kind of hint that they could take further steps. But I think for now, everyone is holding their breath that so far it seems pretty proportional. I pretty proportional diplomat for diplomat. Okay. Speaking of that diplomat, do we know anything about Lalonde and what she does in China? Yeah. So we know that she works in a Canadian consulate. So really, it's kind of a tit-for-tat situation. You know, this is not China sending home the Canadian ambassador or anyone that's kind of higher at that level. So it is proportional. And just like the diplomat that we're expelling, she also has to get back by May 13th.

OK, so it's proportional for now, but let's be clear, this this could still escalate. I mean, just look at what else is happening these days. This week, Canada wrapped up consultations on creating a registry of foreign agents. We know the People's Republic detests, completely detests this idea. And meanwhile, Catherine, how's this for irony? This Michael Chong saga supposedly began with the story of Uyghurs, with Chong calling out human rights abuses in China. And here's where we end.

Just a few days ago, right as the Chong scandal was erupting, Canada's parliament quietly passed a bill targeting products made with forced labor. So stay tuned, because this diplomatic crisis ain't over. Thanks so much for joining us, Catherine. Thanks for having me. And that is all for today. I'm Alex Bonetta. Thank you for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.