Front Burner - Canada fires off-message ambassador to China

Episode Date: January 28, 2019

Canada's ambassador to China, John McCallum, was forced to resign after making multiple comments that were out of step with the federal government's stance on the Canadian arrest of Chinese Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. Today on Front Burner, CBC's Katie Simpson breaks down what happened and why it is such a big deal.

Hey there, I'm Kathleen Goltar and I have a confession to make. I am a true crime fanatic. I devour books and films and most of all true crime podcasts. But sometimes I just want to know more. I want to go deeper. And that's where my podcast Crime Story comes in. Every week I go behind the scenes with the creators of the best in true crime. I chat with the host of Scamanda, Teacher's Pet, Bone Valley, the list goes on. For the insider scoop, find Crime Story in your podcast app. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Pueso. By any standards, this weekend was nuts when it comes to Canadian politics.

Canada's ambassador to China, John McCallum, was summarily fired by the prime minister. We begin tonight with the unprecedented firing of Canada's ambassador to China. A statement from the prime minister's office says Trudeau asked for and accepted his resignation. He was fired. This is not a resignation. He was outright fired by the prime minister. You see, the longtime liberal politician turned diplomat was forced to resign after making multiple comments that were out of step with the government's stance

on the Canadian arrest of Chinese Huawei executive, Meng Wanzhou. I think she has quite good arguments on her side. One, political involvement by comments from Donald Trump. And this is all happening at a time when Canadian-Chinese relations are the worst they've been in generations. Thankfully, my colleague Katie Simpson has been all over this developing story. And today she joins us from Ottawa.

This is FrontBurner. Hi, Katie. Hi. Thank you so much for joining us today. My pleasure. So let's start with what happened over the weekend, the firing of John McCallum. So it's Saturday afternoon, and I'm just happening to be looking at my phone and out of nowhere there's this statement from the Prime Minister's office that is

a comment from the Prime Minister about the resignation of Ambassador John McCallum. We knew that there was intense pressure on the Prime Minister to do something after some public comments that John McCallum had made throughout the week. But on Friday, what the real turning point here seems to be, on Friday, John McCallum was at an event in Vancouver with Vancouver's Chinese community, and he had a conversation on the record. He again repeated some comments that he had to apologize for earlier in the week. So because this was the second time this had happened in a week, what we're being told by officials, well, by the Liberals, we just interviewed Marco Mendicino,

who the Prime Minister's office is putting out for interviews today, and he said that the Prime Minister had to act because John McCallum's comments were unhelpful. Obviously the comments that he made over the last number of days were not helpful and did not reflect the position of the government of Canada. And that's why the Prime Minister called for his resignation. So I want to get to these comments and how they all unfolded. But first of all, what do we know about how his firing went down?

We know for sure that it was the Prime Minister who did it himself. And John McCallum is a really well-liked liberal within that PMO circle. Him and the prime minister go way back. He was the dean of arts at McGill when Justin Trudeau was at school there. There is a long relationship. And John McCallum, though he does have a history

of sort of putting his foot in it and then kind of putting his foot in his mouth, he's been able to overcome that because he is, one, well-liked, and two, he was seen as an effective performer on the files that he did handle. As you know, Canada fulfilled its mandate to welcome 25,000 Syrian refugees by the end of February 2016. And he does have a deep understanding of China. He was seen as someone that the Chinese liked. And at a time when the prime minister really wanted to expand business ties in China and even possibly pave the way for some form of a trade deal,

he was kind of seen as the guy that they tapped to start this foundation. I also believe that this China assignment is the perfect job for me. And I am grateful to the Prime Minister for his confidence. So let's get into these comments that essentially got him fired this weekend personally by the prime minister. Of course, this is all happening in the context of a very tense relationship between China and Canada. We have two Canadians who our government says are being arbitrarily detained in China. It's unfortunate that China has arbitrarily and unfairly detained two Canadian citizens.

We have another Canadian man who has just been sentenced to death. We have already spoken with China's ambassador to Canada and requested clemency. There's a lot of speculation that this is all because of the arrest of Meng Wanzhou, the CFO of Huawei. We have arrested her here for extradition hearings to the United States. So let's go back to last week. John McCallum is at an event in Markham. And what happens? So it's Tuesday in Markham and he holds a news conference. It's part of an outreach program. That is what I am told, where it was mostly Chinese media, mostly Chinese language media or media that has a largely Chinese audience.

CBC News was not invited to that event, nor were other large mainstream media outlets. And when I registered my displeasure about that with Global Affairs, as I did ever so politely, they said, note it. But Fairchild TV, they were there. They're a Chinese language broadcaster in Canada. And we've reached an agreement so that they would share some of their tape with us. And as I said, I think Ms. Meng has quite a strong case. So here's the setting. John McCallum is sitting in front of at least a dozen cameras and reporters from various Chinese language media outlets

or outlets that have a mainly Chinese audience. And over the course of 40 minutes, he repeatedly argued and advocated for Meng Wanzhou's release. The comments that really got picked up were that he thinks that she has a strong case and argued that Donald Trump's comments could be used in her case as part of her defense that perhaps the U.S. president had tainted this case because he said he would be willing to intervene because if it would help advance his interests in China, perhaps use her as a bargaining chip.

One, political involvement by comments from Donald Trump in her case. Two, there's an extraterritorial aspect. And three, there's the issue of Iran sanctions, which are involved in her case, and Canada does not sign on to these Iran sanctions. English language media found out about this because Reuters, which is a wire service that we subscribe to, sent out a clip from this, from John McCallum,

and that's the clip they chose, him making the case that Meng Wanzhou has a strong defense here. And he went on to say things that are far more controversial. If that's not controversial enough, giving your opinion on a case, a very sensitive case that's before the courts right now and that could upset your closest ally, the Americans. He went on to say if the Americans and the Chinese could cut some sort of deal. And part of the deal would be that they would no longer seek her extradition. And we would hope if the U.S. made such a deal,

part of the deal would also be to release the two Canadians. The reason that is so controversial is because the Canadian government has argued time and time and time again that this is not a case where there can be any political interference. They've argued that Canada is a country that is a rule of law country and that there's going to be no political interference in that. So those comments kind of undercut what the Prime Minister and Foreign Affairs Minister had gone at length to say.

The appropriate authorities took the decisions in this case without any political involvement or interference, as must be the case. So essentially, this is a massive departure from the party line that we've been hearing for weeks on this matter. Yeah, it's certainly not what the government had wanted out there. Now, there is some opposition questioning right now as to whether perhaps this is the message that John McCallum was instructed to put out there. So I have to be honest, when I saw this last week, I thought this might be some sort of strategy to try and maybe soften Canada's approach to China. Maybe someone thought this would help the Canadians being held in China. So the Liberals are on the record denying this.

They're saying, no, this was not some sort of grand scheme to try and ease tensions with China. And Marco Mendicino, who we interviewed, says on the record, no. No, of course not. And I think floating any type of suggestion in the absence of any factual basis is actually quite irresponsible. But the opposition is arguing perhaps the big crime here isn't what McCallum said, but the crime is that he got caught saying it. So he makes these initial comments. Does he get in trouble after making these comments?

He sure does. Once the English language media sort of gets a hold of this, Andrew Scheer, the leader of the opposition, is calling for his resignation. The government is using our ambassador to China to interfere in the process to obtain a desired outcome. It will undermine our ability to stand up for our judicial system, our investigative systems in the future. Do you think Mr. McCallum should remain as ambassador? No, I don't. If I were prime minister, I would fire John McCallum.

Former ambassadors are calling on the prime minister to immediately distance themselves from his comments and correct the record. And about 24 hours after those comments really started to pick up traction and catch on fire, there's this statement from Global Affairs that's attributed to John McCallum saying that it was not his intention to weigh in on this case and that he misspoke and that this is not his position on this. So John McCallum was expected to go about his business. Okay, they've apologized. They've distanced themselves. I know from sources that the Canadians did a frantic damage control response at the U.S. Embassy. The ambassador, I'm told, started reaching out to key American allies, key Trump administration officials,

to try and make sure that Canada's message was clear, that Canada is not taking a political position on this case, and that Canada is a rule of law country and will follow the letter of the law. So there was clearly some trouble for Canada in the immediate aftermath of his comments, but they certainly got that walk back and apology out in about a 24-hour time frame. Our focus is entirely on getting those Canadians home safe and making sure that all their rights are respected. Making a change would not help release those Canadians a day sooner. And what do we know about how this is playing out in China at this time?

So initially, after the apology was issued, we saw some Chinese state-run media sort of respond negatively to John McCallum walking back those comments, saying that it essentially arguing that it's political correctness run amok and that media in Canada is out for the Chinese. And, you know, they applauded the comments that John McCallum had made. So he makes these initial comments and there's this massive controversy around it, but he doesn't get fired. He just walks them back. And then he speaks to the Toronto Star on Friday. John McCallum, what does he say? He does. So our cameras were there as well.

So it's a dim sum luncheon in Vancouver with Vancouver's Chinese community. And one of our colleagues in Vancouver tried to speak with McCallum outside. And he said, you know, my comments are my comments. Look, I'm late for my lunch. I'll just say my statement speaks for itself. And I'm going back to China tomorrow. So he goes inside to this luncheon. And what we know from the Toronto Star is that a reporter from the Toronto Star identified herself as being from the Toronto Star,

had her microphone, her tape recorder out and recording, and started asking some questions. And that's when John McCallum started to repeat some of the comments that ended up getting him in trouble. Things like it would be great if the Americans let Meng Wanzhou go and that if there's going to be some sort of deal that perhaps the Canadians can be released in concert with this. And so after those comments were published and they were published Friday evening, I was still in the office when it happened. Friday evening. I was still in the office when it happened. We were told the prime minister made that phone call to John McCallum. And then, of course, Saturday, the news release went out and John McCallum had been fired.

So John McCallum, he's been Canada's ambassador to China since 2017, but he isn't a rookie. He's been around for a long time. He has. And the thing is, he is really well liked in liberal circles. He was a minister back in the early 2000s and then was, of course, during the Harper years, was still an MP, a member of the opposition. And he's really well liked by Trudeau's inner circle. And I can name for you five staffers and I will not name them on this podcast because they will never speak to me again, but do dead ringer impressions of him. And I've even really I've even heard the prime minister do it. And it was when he was still the minister of

immigration. There was this event and I can't remember what it was, but I was there. And I remember I tweeted about it at the time because it was so kind of it was funny. The prime minister, whether he realized he was doing it or not, did this impression of John McCallum saying, you know, I've got the only immigration minister who's, you know, begging me for more refugees. And he sort of did it in that John McCallum, I can't get enough refugees. And he did it like that. And I don't know if the prime minister realized he was doing it, but he did it. And it was hysterical.

And other staffers do dead on impressions of him. And it's kind of a well-known thing here in Ottawa. It's not done out of meanness. It is done out of love and affection and respect. But all of that said, there is a clear awareness in inner circles around the prime minister's office that John McCallum does have trouble sticking to his script. And that is not new. There were a number of issues back in the early 2000s that he had to apologize for. Oh, interesting. What are some examples?

Well, one of the most recent, aside from this, back when he was appointed, not long after he was appointed ambassador to China, he made some comments at an event in China saying that, you know, Canada has more in common with China right now than it does with the U.S. given the Trump administration. That, of course, came sort of in the middle of NAFTA talks. And it was when the government was on this very, very careful, being very careful about their words toward the United States because they did not want to do anything to upset Donald Trump out of fear he would react by cancelling NAFTA. They're very careful. They do not want to upset the Trump administration and do not want anyone to put

them in that position where they have to defend themselves. One criticism I've heard that maybe sort of melds with what you've just been saying about John McCallum is that he's more politician than diplomat and that this is problematic in a role like ambassador. And absolutely, that is a valid criticism or a valid concern. And the other big question now is what is the government going to be doing moving forward? Are they going to pick a former politician to go into this role? Or are they going to pick a lifetime bureaucrat who probably is not as necessarily as comfortable with the media that John McCallum was? And remember, China reacted positively to John McCallum's appointment in the first place because he is so well respected and so well liked by the inner circle he was seen as someone who could pick up the phone and get the prime minister on the phone right away that

justin trudeau would listen to john mccallum so that was sort of the initial positive reaction and it you know when you take a look overall at the the canada china relationship that justin trudeau has been trying to cultivate that has not worked whatsoever. Putting a person like John McCallum in that position was meant to be a signal that this relationship is incredibly important to Canada and that when it comes to the Canada-China relationship, Canada wants more, more, more, more, more. It's interesting you say that because conservative leader Andrew Scheer has called this latest incident with McCallum part of a bigger problem with Trudeau's image over substance foreign policy when it comes to China. The time to take the decision was right away.

Instead, he's shown weakness on this file and damaged Canada's reputation and our ability to handle this very important issue where Canadians' treatment in China is being affected by this. What is he trying to get at there? He's trying to argue that Justin Trudeau has not really understood the scope and the power of China and that he's been naive in thinking that Canada can really cozy up and build relations with China when it is a country that does what it wants, when it wants, how it wants. It all leads back to what has the Prime Minister done here on his foreign policy toward China,

trying to sort of get closer and closer and closer to this uncontrollable entity. And now we're in this position where Canada has been put in this position by the Americans and Canada doesn't really know how it's going to get out. One question I have about McCallum's comments over the past week, you know, the first being that Meng Wanzhou might have a good extradition case. The second that it would frankly be great for Canada if the United States dropped their extradition of Meng Wanzhou. These comments have been roundly criticized, but are they really so bad? You know, is it possible that he is just saying the truth? It's not necessarily that his comments are incorrect,

but the fact that the government has sort of put out this line there to tell the Chinese, listen, we are not going to politically interfere, no matter how hard you lean on us. I think it's really important to be clear that Canada is a rule of law country, and Canada is a country that believes in abiding by its treaty obligations. And to have someone so senior speaking on behalf of the government to sort of advocate for her release

and sort of wish that the Americans would cut some sort of deal, it's seen as undercutting the Canadian position and could be another sign that this is all a big political thing. What do we know about what McCallum is saying for himself here? Well, McCallum, no one's been able to get a hold of McCallum since the resignation, since he was forced to resign. And we've tried to reach out to him at this point. We're not exactly sure where he is right now, but I still want to ask him, did the prime minister's office ask you to make these comments? Because even though the prime minister's office and everyone's denying at this point, I'd like to hear it from him as well.

And what do we know? We talked before about how his comments were playing out in China. How is his actual firing playing out in China? Well, we're going to say a word that we've never said on the podcast before. So warning, brace yourselves. There's a brand new editorial out from the Global Times, which is basically a tabloid publication that's state-linked. It's basically a mouthpiece for the Chinese government. And it pretty much says that Meng's arrest is not within the spirit of law, and it criticizes the firing of John McCallum. And here is a quote from one of the last paragraphs.

It says, goes, you cannot live the life of a whore and expect a monument to your chastity. Canada is a country worthy of respect, but some Canadians must be reminded that they are now refusing to face up to the moral predicament. They are against moral righteousness while deceiving themselves to believe that they can be honored as moral models. Wow. So there's that. Yep. Just a casual Sunday. Just happy Sunday. But I think the broader accusation there is that Canada is sort of trying to take this moral high ground, but it is not. In fact, they're trying to say that there's no political interference in this case, but they're arguing that, look at all of this. Clearly, this is political, so let her go.

Her being Meng Wanzhou. So that's new and that is new that's that's what it's not old it's new it's not old that's that's something different but you know their actions have been much stronger than their words of course and something that is not funny whatsoever is the two canadians that have been detained michael spavor michael kovrig picked up on allegations of compromising chinese national security. As we have reported previously, sources have told us that the Chinese have a list of Canadians that they could arrest at any time. And we should note, there are preliminary reports

that another Canadian has now been arrested in China. Yes, we're working to confirm this. We've reached out to Global Affairs and officials in Christopher Freeland's office. The initial reports out of China are that a 61-year-old Canadian man has been arrested on fraud charges. We don't know much else, but it's fraud in the range of hundreds of millions of dollars, apparently, and it's related to some sort of unknown, unnamed entertainment company. We're trying to get the information confirmed, but right now we don't have that confirmed by Canadian officials. But one thing I do want to flag, though, there are a series of stories that came out and said, OK, 13 Canadians have been arrested in China since this incident first unfolded.

China is a country that arrests people all the time. And at any given time, there are 200 Canadians that are in Chinese custody at any given time. So when you hear the number 13, it sounds, oh, my goodness, that's so huge, that's crazy. But I spoke to some former ambassadors who say, no, that's about par for the course. What is different about Kovrig, Spavor, and Robert Schellenberg, the Canadian who's had his sentence changed, is that the Chinese have singled all three of them out and have really made a big deal about them. And the Canadians are treating them as different, calling their arrests and the change in sentencing arbitrary. And while the Canadians won't officially link it to the arrest of Meng,

it is obviously in response to the arrest of Meng. The other incidents, not so much. Again, but that doesn't take away the fear from anyone who might be traveling to China, afraid and concerned that, you know, if they go, they could be targeted, they could be searched, they could be questioned. I'm not saying that that fear does not exist, but I'm just saying that China does this. This is how China rolls. I am really struck by how this story has unraveled in the last several weeks. A former ambassador to China, Guy Saint-Jacques, said that this is the worst crisis with China

he's seen since we opened diplomatic relations with the country in the 1970s. Katie, what do you think comes next here? Well, Canada is going to find someone to take McCallum's job. Someone it trusts, someone that China will trust to come in and try to navigate this very sensitive situation because there is a lot

on the line right now. Obviously, the lives of three Canadians are sort of in the balance here and it's not going to be easy. Katie, thank you so much. Thank you. Later today, the Prime Minister is expected to take a grilling on this issue from opposition parties in the House of Commons, and we may know more then. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe.

As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.