Front Burner - Canada starts tackling caste discrimination

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

The Toronto District School Board has become the first board in Canada to officially recognize caste based discrimination. The caste system is thought to be among the oldest forms of social hierarchy of classification in the world, and has dominated the Indian subcontinent for thousands of years. It can dictate romantic relationships, job prospects, housing, and even lead to violence. Today, reporter Uday Rana explores the beginnings of caste in Canada, and the modern impact the ancient hierarchy has on Canada's South Asian diaspora today. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

Happy Holidays! I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic, and I'd like you to set a goal for 2025 to sharpen your skills and get promoted. Register for a professional designation, micro-credential, or certificate with Humber's Continuous Professional Learning and ignite your career journey this new year. Our experts deliver accelerated learning from resilience-based leadership to electric vehicle fundamentals in learning options that work with your ambitious lifestyle. Adapt, evolve, and excel. Go to humber.ca slash cpl to get started. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Stephanie Skanderis filling in for Jamie Poisson.

That lead rights are human rights. Caste-oppressed rights are human rights. And we have heard of numerous and grave cases of caste inequity across the province. That's Toronto District School Board Trustee Yalini Rajakulasinghe talking about the historic motion to recognize caste-based discrimination. Last week, the TDSB, the largest school board in Canada, became the first in the country to do so. It's a move that comes after the school board heard from parents about the bullying and social outcasting that students were facing. Now, by caste, we're talking about one of the world's oldest systems of social hierarchy, or stratification,

and one that's dominated the Indian subcontinent for thousands of years. Originally a system of ordering society along lines of profession, it soon morphed into an instrument of social division and control. One is born into a caste and there is little scope for movement out of it.

Caste can dictate the terms of a person's day-to-day life, who they're friends with, who they marry, and what kind of work they do. And today it remains deeply entrenched, not just in India, but here in Canada. So today we're talking about it with Ottawa-based reporter Uday Rana about how caste-based discrimination is impacting Canada's South Asian diaspora. Hi Uday, welcome to FrontBurner. Thanks for joining us. It's nice to be here. So the TDSB has become the first school board in Canada to officially recognize caste discrimination.

And they've also asked the Ontario Human Rights Commission to help create a framework to address it. Why is this recognition of caste from the TDSB so significant? Yeah, it's significant because it's the first time a school board in Canada has recognized this. And it's also coming at a moment where there is a growing recognition of caste oppression and those dynamics of caste oppression outside of South Asia. We've seen this happen in the United States. Just last month, the Seattle City Council voted to become the first jurisdiction in North America to ban caste oppression. It made caste a protected category. It's an historic moment for the American South Asian diaspora,

as the Seattle Council votes to add caste to the city's anti-discrimination laws. The law allows us to now speak, talk about things that are wrong. Without that, there's a fear of retaliation, and people do not want to talk about it. And we've seen this happen in universities across the United States. We've seen this happen at Brown University, at Cal State. So really, it's kind of a growing movement outside South Asia, but it's never happened in Canada to this extent, not at a school board. And it's significant that it happened at the TDSB because a very significant

number of students at TDSB are South Asian. I believe the last time I checked, the number was at 22%. That makes this motion all the more relevant. For so many years, Dalit voices cast oppressed voices. They've had to kind of have these conversation and hushed voices and behind closed doors. And to see it get the platform at the largest school board in Canada, honestly, I think for them, it's a healing process. I know that we have an evolving understanding of what discrimination looks like. But I guess what I'm wondering is why isn't caste discrimination already being addressed in school? Why isn't it already covered under the framework that they would already have in place? So the current framework, and this is something that Yalini Rajakulasingam, the trustee, the TDSB trustee who introduced the motion, she said that you have

categories like religion, race, sexual orientation, and gender, but you don't have a category to file a complaint under caste. There is no category to record caste. So it's not being recorded as caste. This does not mean it is not happening. So a lot of those incidents of caste-based bullying get recorded under race or religion. And her argument was that caste discrimination looks very different. Caste operates in very different kind of ways. When we look at South Asian communities,

many come from communities that are rich and dark, melanated skin tones. But because of colonization, lighter skin tones were introduced. And one impact of this is that there was this perception that the lighter you are, the more caste privileged you are, the more lighter your skin would be. And the more darker you are, the less caste privileged, the more caste oppressed you would be. That's a perpetuated impact of this. Whenever someone says that, oh, there is no evidence of rising caste discrimination in Canada

or caste discrimination in Canada at all, then proponents of this motion will turn around and say that that's exactly why you need a protected category, because you have these incidents. So we need to know how big the problem is. And for that, you need a separate category to record discrimination based on caste. And it does look quite different from, say, you know, a racist slur or a sexist slur. Those very specific dynamics need to be dealt with. Specifically, when we're talking about bullying in schools, caste-based bullying, can you give us a sense of what that actually looks like? When I spoke to Yalini Rajakulasingam, she told me about the kind of things that she had heard from constituents in her ward. And it ranges from casteist slurs on playgrounds, casteist slurs

in the classroom, in schools, comments about, you know, somebody's dietary habits, comments about somebody's skin color, and they're specifically tied to caste. I heard a particularly disturbing incident that I heard was from the South Asian Dalit Adivasi Network, or Southern, as the organization is called, where they spoke about a young girl. She was in the 11th grade, identified as a member of an oppressed caste. They didn't reveal her identity to protect her identity. But what they said was that this young girl, 11th grade, was told by a classmate, a fellow student, that if she were a sex worker, she would not get even a penny on the market because of her skin color.

Yeah, so that's the kind of visceral form that some of these casteist comments can take. And this is somebody in the 11th grade and somebody as young as that is facing something openly casteist. So if we just back it up a little bit, can you break down the caste system briefly for us here? What are the main groups that we're talking about in this context?

So it's really hard to explain something as complicated, complex as caste in a 20-minute podcast. But for a very basic understanding, the caste system is a form of social hierarchy that goes back thousands of years. There are four broad categories within the caste system, or varnas as they are called, and outside of those four categories are the Dalits, who were preteritively referred to as the untouchables, until that term was outlawed. They now self-identify as Dalit, and they are believed to be at the very bottom of the caste hierarchy. And I guess how are people grouped into these categories?

Broadly speaking, it would be based on the profession that your community has practiced over generations. But it has a lot of other signifiers like your last name or the color of your skin or your dietary habits. That's part of what makes caste so complicated. And according to your reporting and experience, because you've been looking at this for a long time, how are members of the Indian diaspora being confronted by caste in their day-to-day lives in Canada? The first South Asians to come to Canada were back in 1903. And the first recorded incident of caste oppression in Canada dates back to 1906. So some would argue that the history of caste oppression in Canada is as old as South Asians in Canada. Yalini Rajakulasingam, who introduced this motion, she said that if immigrants come to Canada

and bring their food and culture and language and clothing, it would also make sense, logically, that they also bring their prejudices, their biases. And that is something that's being confronted now. And it's being confronted because the South Asian diaspora in Canada is growing. And therefore, the scale of these issues is growing. Caste-oppressed people within countries like the US and Canada are saying that this is something we've been facing for a very long time. It just hasn't been talked about. I think it might be surprising to a lot of Canadians that this has existed going right back to 1906. But we wanted to know more about how this is affecting people in Canada today, especially people who identify as Dalit in Canada today.

So our producer spoke to a journalist named Mira Estrada. She's a member of the Dalit community, and she talked about her experience with that discrimination growing up here in Canada. I've lived in Toronto most of my life. I was born in England. I moved to Canada when I was just three years old. But I had a very active role in the South Asian community. I used to attend religious classes weekly. I used to go to language classes weekly. So I was around a lot of South Asians and caste was something that is very commonplace, very naturally spoken about. I would hear a lot of people, you know, sharing very much pride in their dominant caste position. The only time I would hear about marginalized castes were in, you know, very just like off the cuff remarks, derogatory jokes.

And so I personally, I never spoke about my cast I never shared it and I went as what is called passing it was very commonplace to ask you know what cast are you from in my late teens and in my 20s you know there's a lot of matchmaking that goes on in social settings and it was a lot of you know here we Mira, we have this great boy, he's from a quote, good family, meaning, you know, he's from a dominant caste, and we think he's great for you. And because nobody had ever questioned myself on caste, just because it was assumed we were dominant caste, because we're all very well educated in my family. And there's actually not a huge Dalit community, because it's very hard to

leave India and so I felt it a lot in those years just because I felt like I was I was so closeted really and it really took a hit on my self-esteem and it took me a long time to realize that cast shouldn't inform my identity like my character shouldn't inform my identity there was a breaking point for me when I realized I need to speak up on caste and that was when one of my friends both her and I had just had babies and I had read somewhere that surrogates in India lower caste surrogates are paid less than dominant caste surrogates. And she had gone to India at that time when it was legal for surrogacy. And I asked her, I was at her house with my baby, we were having a play date. And I said, Is this true? And, you know, she very

national. And she's like, Of course, it's true. She's like, I would never use a lower caste surrogate. I wouldn't want my kid to be stupid. It's, it was like a gut punch. And I look across the room and our babies are there playing and it just hit me. If somebody here that I've grown up with here has those thoughts and now she has children, she's going to pass on those values to her children. And I do not want my children to go through that. So Uday, that's a little bit about what this journalist Meera Estrada told us. You've worked as a reporter in India covering caste and caste violence pretty comprehensively. When you came to Canada in 2021, were you surprised to hear about this particular form of prejudice happening here as well?

Like the kind of things that Meera described? here as well, like the kind of things that Meera described? I wouldn't say I was surprised because, again, like it follows logically that prejudices would follow a community when they, you know, go outside of where they originate from. In fact, some of the things that Meera said, I have found in my reporting as well, when she spoke about trying to pass, that's something that I've heard a lot about. You know, people don't self-identify as dalit or coming from an oppressed caste background um i've heard about people trying to either straight up question you about what your caste is or try to you know sneak in a few questions to kind of gauge or locate you on the caste hierarchy you know they'll probably ask you what your last name is what your parents do back home um or you know um ask you what your last name is, what your parents do back home, or, you know, ask you questions about whether you're a vegetarian or not.

And that, you know, affects very important things like whether or not you get a decent housing situation, whether or not you can network in your professional settings, because people will, you know, relate to you differently if you come from a certain background. And that that's the sort of thing that I've unfortunately heard a lot from people you come from a certain background and that that's the sort of thing that i've unfortunately heard a lot from people who come from oppressed caste backgrounds it does make sense that it would follow into the diaspora i don't know if you watch the netflix show indian matchmaking the marriages they are between two families the two families have the reputation and many millions of dollars at stake so the parents guide their children and that is the work of a matchmaker. It was quite popular in the early pandemic

and it's, I'm not going to lie, it's great, fun, reality TV, but it's been called out. It's been called out for promoting a lot of these casteist notions. She talked about finding a suitable boy. In India, we have to see the caste, we have to see the height, we have to see the age.

Unfortunately, even within the diaspora, a lot of people look for matches for their children within the same caste community. That is a reality that happens not just in India, but within South Asian diaspora outside. And shows like Indian Matchmaking have been called out in several quarters for kind of trying to promote this caste silo approach that a lot of people seem to follow. When people are trying to keep from being identified as a member of a lower caste, what are they doing? Lying about their last names or where they're from? What are they actually doing? Well, that, yes. Maybe perhaps some people change their last names or some last names are quite

ambiguous, like a last name like Kumar could be somebody from any kind of caste background. I also spoke to Dr. Chenaya Jangam. He is an associate professor at Carton University and he is somebody who's faced death threats as part of his work on caste oppression and on Hindu nationalism and he spoke about how either people don't come forward and identify caste oppression or they don't identify their caste because there's very little to be gained for a lot of people from identifying themselves as a member of an oppressed caste. And there's a lot to lose. I think it's pretty shocking to people that are outside of this and don't know much about this system that people would have

to be doing stuff like that in Canada today. But I want to ask you, just based on your experience, how this system has made its way to Canada, how it continues to shape the lives of even second and third generation immigrants. These are people who may have never been to India, don't speak the language. They may otherwise have a really tenuous relationship with the country. So how is this idea of caste passed on to them? So as part of my reporting, I also spoke to Tenmori Sondarajan, who is a Dalit scholar and author based in California. And she's talked about the intergenerational trauma of caste and how these prejudices pass down from one generation to another. And I think that's what we're kind

of seeing with second or third generation caste oppressed people who continue to face this. It makes sense. It makes sense that prejudices would follow. Because why wouldn't it? Why would language translate across continents? Food, culture and clothing translate across continents, but not prejudice. Not deeply held beliefs that communities have had for a very long time. And yes, it is possible to weed out those prejudices, but Dalit advocates in Canada and the US have been saying that it takes work to do that. It takes education. And most of all,

it takes recognizing that there exists a problem in the first place. And many Dalit scholars have drawn parallels with how South Asians talk about British colonialism, but don't often talk about caste oppression in the same vein. Because if you're talking about recognizing the crimes of the British Empire in India, and you're talking about truth and reconciliation in that regard, why not also talk about reconciling with our past as South Asians with regard to caste? And that's an argument that has been made quite a lot, especially since India gained independence 75 years ago.

Happy holidays. I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic. And I'd like you to set a goal for 2025 to sharpen your skills and get promoted. Register for a professional designation, micro-credential, or certificate with Humber's Continuous Professional Learning and ignite your career journey this new year. Our experts deliver accelerated learning from resilience-based leadership to electric vehicle fundamentals and learning options that work with your ambitious lifestyle. Adapt, evolve, and excel. Go to humber.ca slash cpl to get started. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. But I also understand that this issue is really polarizing for many in the

South Asian community here. The TDSB's motion, for example, was met with real opposition, a lot of protest, and some people accused efforts like this of being Hindu-phobic was their word. What do you make of the pushback? Yes, there has been pushback to this. And they've made a bunch of arguments against the motion. One, of course, is that they claim that it's Hindu-phobic. It's against South Asian diaspora and it's targeting South Asians. By supporting the original motion, trustees unnecessarily divided the South Asian community.

The motion didn't solve a problem, but instead it created a problem. And the other is that there's very little evidence of caste-based oppression in Canada. Where is the data to support this motion? I spoke to many TDSB staff at all levels who told me they've never seen case of caste oppression in school. It is non-issue. Proponents of the motion have said that, look, you're saying that there's very little evidence of caste oppression because that category doesn't exist. It's very hard to pinpoint caste oppression. And another argument against that is that, yeah, people are scared. People are scared to report caste oppression because who would understand if there is no framework, if there is no human rights framework to deal with that? And imagine being somebody from an oppressed caste going to a police station or a human rights tribunal in Canada and saying that I've been discriminated against based on my caste. and saying that I've been discriminated against based on my caste,

it would take a while to even explain what caste is, let alone explain their specific situation and the specific ways in which that they have been mocked or bullied or harassed. And as far as the argument against it being Hindu-phobic is concerned, Trustee Rajakula Singham said that she was... Now, to be clear, Trustee Rajakula Singham is herself somebody who identifies with the hindu faith she is not only dalit she is um a child of tamil refugees who came to canada in 1986 and she said she was confused by the argument that it's hindu phobic

because it doesn't actually single out hinduism it actually says um in very broad terms that caste oppression needs to be tackled with, not just with the South Asian diaspora, but also diaspora from Africa, from the Caribbean and from different parts of the world. The opposition though has meant that the motion that eventually got passed is a more watered down version

of the original motion, whereas the original motion called for creating a separate protected category of caste alongside race gender and sexual orientation and it also called for creating a working group of people who identified as caste oppressed to create that kind of framework the motion that eventually passed on the floor of the TDSP board meeting was very different. It recognizes that caste oppression exists, which is significant. But instead of making it a protected category, all it does is that it elevates it to the Ontario Human Rights Commission.

Advocates, though, have said that it means that the province of Ontario can now have a wider discussion on how caste operates. can now have a wider discussion on how caste operates. So it looks like the Human Rights Commission is going to be in charge of deciding the ways in which caste oppression operates specifically in Ontario and what that means going forward. And advocates are saying that this means that it opens up the doors to talking about caste, not just in schools and not just in Ontario, but across Canada. Well, yeah, there are already calls for other places to do what the TDSB has done. There's one call right now in British Columbia. Could you see similar measures being adopted by other school boards or by cities across the country?

Yeah, I think it's important to see that what's happening in the TDSB is in the background of what happened in Seattle and that in turn was in the background of what happened at Cal State or Brown. I think there is a growing call for the South Asian diaspora to confront this dark chapter in South Asia's history. And I don't think it's going to stop at Toronto alone. I don't think it's going to stop at Ontario alone. I think anywhere where there is a significant South Asian diaspora, this question is going to keep coming up. And BC certainly is one of those provinces where there is a significant South Asian diaspora, not just second or third generation South Asians, but newcomers. Since 2016, there has been a massive spike in the number of South Asians who've come to Canada, myself included. And I think all of us will have to, at some point or the other,

confront this question no matter where we live in Canada, not just in Ontario. Even if this is adopted more widely, what kind of long-term impact do you think it will have? How will it change things? If you are hearing these stories of children facing caste discrimination from their schoolmates, these children are learning caste prejudice from somewhere. And the hope from advocates of this motion is that this motion would mean that this is where you stem the rise.

This is where you stem this kind of caste discrimination going forward. So it's really it's like breaking that cycle. Okay, thank you so much, Uday, for sharing all your thoughts with us. My pleasure being here. That's all for today. I'm Stephanie Skanderis, in for Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening.

We'll talk to you tomorrow.