Front Burner - Canada vs. Messi, Argentina

Episode Date: July 9, 2024

The Canadian men's soccer team is set to take on Lionel Messi and Argentina, the current holders of the World Cup and No.1 ranked team in the world, in the semi finals of the Copa America soccer tournament. The game is arguably the biggest match in Canadian soccer history.James Sharman is a longtime soccer journalist and host of The Footy Prime Podcast. He'll share how this marks the culmination of a years-long project which has taken the Canadian program from relative obscurity to legitimacy.For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. He sends Canada into the semifinals of Copa America. So that was a scene in Arlington, Texas, as Team Canada defeated Venezuela in the quarterfinals of the Copa America, one of the world's biggest soccer tournaments. If you didn't catch it, this was a game they won last week in this incredibly exciting penalty shootout. was a game they won last week in this incredibly exciting penalty shootout. For many, this is the culmination of a decades-long project for the Canadian men's national soccer program, a project

which has gone from relative obscurity to a legitimate force on the continent. Later today, Team Canada will play what is arguably its biggest game ever, as they prepare to take on the number one ranked international soccer team in the world and the current World Cup champions. A team led by a man that most would describe as the greatest soccer player to ever play the sport, that is Argentina, and of course Lionel Messi. For more on Team Canada's unprecedented run at this year's Copa America tournament and the journey to this moment, I am joined by James Sherman. He is the host of the Footy Prime podcast, and he's been covering soccer in this country for years.

Hey, James, thanks so much for coming on. You are more than welcome. Yeah, looking forward to this. It's great to have you. Let's start with the game that is going to be played later today. Canada versus Argentina, Canada versus Lionel Messi, right? In the semifinal of a major international tournament. And for those who may not follow the sport or this team super closely, just put that moment into context for me. Yeah, for sure. So Copa America is among the second best tournaments in world football. So you have the World Cup, which stands alone, of course.

And then you have the Confederations tournaments. You have the Euros, also in joint right now. That's Europe, of course, European Championship. And then Copa America, which is South South America obviously a hotbed of football where the sport is more than just a sport as a religion. It's a massive

tournament with incredible history. It's storied. It's fabled. It's a really special, special tournament and very difficult to win.

So for Canada to get to the semi-finals, a team, you know, let's be honest, it's been through the mire for decades now, quite honestly. So for Canada to get to the semi-finals, a team, you know, let's be honest, it's been through the mire for decades now, quite honestly. A sport that's fighting for its place in Canada. This is a monumental occasion. The result is, honestly, it's not even that important. Obviously, winning would be special, but this is a team they're playing who's the best team

in the world. They likely won't win this game. But to get this far is really special, not just in soccer in this country, but as sport as a whole in this country. The last time many listeners may have watched this team play was at the World Cup two years ago, right? Which was not a success. The final whistle goes. Canada eliminated after two matches of their World Cup return. What has happened between now and then? Yeah, it's a good question because I don't know, you know, quite honestly.

Leading up to the World Cup, Canada enjoyed this renaissance of such. It played some wonderful football in the qualifying campaign. It made the World Cup first time in 36 years or whatever it was. It made the World Cup first time in 36 years or whatever it was. In your wildest dreams, from obscurity to unforgettable, this is the moment the country has waited for. The kings of the north, they've done it. Canada is going to the World Cup. And then had a very disappointing tournament where it didn't win, scored a goal. The first time that's happened in the World Cup for Canada. Buchanan with the cross in towards Alphonso Davies. He missed the penalty in the opener.

He makes amends today Canada's history making moment delivered by their biggest superstar but it wasn't a great tournament and then something happened between that World Cup and where we're at now

where the team went into decline some very lackadaisical performances John Herbman the March Herald did to her head coach. He resigned. He walked away.

Off the pitch, a whole bunch of nonsense happening with the CBA not happening, pay equity being debated and negotiated. So off the pitch, it was ugly. There was a lawsuit against some former board members. It was all ugly, ugly, ugly. Meanwhile, the team was playing poorly on the pitch. former board members. It was all ugly, ugly, ugly. Meanwhile, the team was playing poorly on the pitch. So all they had to look forward to beyond 2026 in the World Cup was the potential to qualify for Copa America, which not every year will they even allow teams from this region, CONCACAF, North and Central America into that tournament. But this year they did. So a qualifying campaign

didn't go according to plan. Canada struggled. In the end, they just about qualified. It was tight. It wasn't pretty. And then they hired a new coach, Jesse Marsh, an American, which was a little bit controversial. He jumps aboard about two months ago now. His first games against the Netherlands, which is one of the top teams in world football.

And then France, which is arguably the best team in world football, they're more Argentina, a wonderful side in friendlies, that they lose to the Dutch heavily. They tie the French 0-0 and then they enter Copa America and they played some really great football. And here we are now in the semifinals. So what happened?

You know what? It's a reset, a reset of the mindset. I don't know entirely, but all I do know is that there's this momentum building in this country behind soccer behind football that i haven't seen for a long time and it started with this team and we'll we'll continue with the women at the olympics in a few weeks time and then onward to 2026 Picking up on this idea that this kind of came as like a bit of a surprise for people in the quarterfinal Canada beat Venezuela. You know, I was really interested in the descriptions of people in the stadium.

really interested in the descriptions of people in the stadium. Someone had mentioned that there were 50,000 people on hand and about 49,000 of them were Venezuela supporters of the 170 media accredited for the game. Only 10 of them were from Canada. And like, just how would you describe the environment that Canada's had to play in over the course of this tournament? Yeah, not unexpected. I have to realize that this year's Copa America, that's usually played in South America, one nation per year type thing. This year's being played in the States, obviously better infrastructure

and the North American teams are welcome as well. But yeah, I mean, listen, generally speaking, Canada doesn't play in front of a partisan Canadian crowd, only at home. And for many years, it wasn't even that. For many years, Canada would play against a Honduras or a Panama in Toronto or Vancouver, and there'd be mainly Honduran and Panamanian fans there, for example, right? So this time around, it's the same.

Obviously, in the States, there's a huge Venezuelan community, huge Peruvian community, Chilean community. The Canadian fans that do travel, they're called the Voyagers. That's the fan group. They travel well and they're passionate and great supporters, but there aren't that many of them. So maybe at most, if you've got a thousand Canadian fans, they might actually be happy about it. But the players seem to enjoy this. They enjoy this pressure, this intimidation of the crowd. Nowadays, you find that this team has so many players playing in big clubs, in huge leagues. They're not intimidated so much by the pressure of the crowd, right? In previous years, that would have been the case. So now you're playing

in front of this massive, volatile, fervent fan base of your opponents. And the players, I think, are just using that as motivation. It's an amazing thing. But that is all part of playing for Canada. You're not going to play in front of 50,000 Canadian fans, you know, outside of Canada. Right, right. Another storyline here is that Canada's success has also been accompanied by kind of disaster, right? From both the United States and Mexico in particular, both of whom are amongst Canada's direct rivals. And watching some of the American broadcast, they seem to have a hard time with this period of Canadian success, right? They're kind of having like a small meltdown. What hurts the most is like this could have been the U.S. doing this.

And now it's Canada. And when you look at a team like Canada, who actually got out of their group, you know, scoring one goal, you know, it is a failure. We do not want to see Canada getting out of the group in a Copa America tournament. And just tell me a little bit more about what's happened and what you've made of their reaction to, you know,

how well this team is doing thus far. It's wonderful. It really is. It is wonderful. Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, as much as it's great to see Canada do so well this time around, to see the States and Mexico to to a lesser degree, do so poorly just adds to it. It's been wonderful. And the Fox coverage in the states, I mean, my word, listen, they love clickbait.

You know, it's Fox. We understand that. But some of their comments, they cannot believe that the states aren't where Canada is. They can't believe Canada is where the states should be. They're incredulous. And I'm human. And I'm an American. And I'm coming off a devastating result when it comes to what the U.S. did in this tournament. And I got to see Canada.

I got to see Canada do this. I mean, this hurts, man. Anybody but Canada, Mossy. Anybody but Canada. And I think it adds to the rivalry, right? Every sporting nation needs a good rival. Canada's had the states. But for many, many years, the States are so far better than

Canada. It wasn't that much of one outside of the women's game. The women's game, it was 100%, but the men's game, not really. But in recent years, Canada's bossed them in some pretty big games. It's still very positive. Next year, there's what they call the Gold Cup, and that is the

North and Central American region of soccer. So you have the Caribbean nations, you have the States, Mexico, Canada, etc. And traditionally speaking, the States win that tournament or Mexico. This time around, for the first time in some time, there's going to be a genuine chance Canada can win that. And it's going to add even more to this rivalry, I think. So it's a really good place to be for Canada. Let's nurture this hatred, sporting hatred. You know, that's fine on the sporting stratosphere. A little bit of hate's fine, I think. And I think that's going to add to the journey. And it's just such a joy to see some of these Fox analysts in particular act like complete babies. It's been wonderful. Thank you. Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing.

In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. You mentioned before that the team recently hired a new coach, Jesse Marsh, right? And he has introduced a new style of play, I understand. He's ushered in this new generation of younger players. And so how would you describe his impact on the team? I know he didn't come in very long ago, but do you think he's really playing a role here?

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, there's been an impact. Like I said, towards the end of John Hoban's reign and since then under the interim manager, who was Morabiello, a really good coach, a Canadian who's actually on the bench as an assistant for Jesse Marsh, good football man.

The team just didn't play very well, didn't really have an identity. But in comes Jesse Marsh, and in short order, being thrown very much into the deep end. For any new coach, playing against this quality of opponents probably isn't ideal. But as a nation, we've been just crying out for these kind of games and no one's complaining about it. But he's learning on the job as well. Really learning about these players and meanwhile

getting results, which is incredible. I came because I believed that I could help this team and that this team was a good fit for me. So I would like to say, yeah, that I believe we could get out of the group. Not to get too mired into the tactics and strategies, but generally speaking, Jesse Marsh is known for being a very aggressive manager. They have to feel us, guys.

They have to know we're here to compete. Not just that we're stylistically going to try to play the same way, but we came to play. We took Venezuela to the limit, right? And it's a good team and it's an athletic team, but our team speed and our athleticism, I think that's our goal is to try to push teams to their limit and see if they can manage us. He likes what they call the high press. He's got a great resume, great CV, coached in Europe, coached in the Premier League with Leeds, who was so much fun to watch.

But we haven't quite seen that vanguard, renegade type coach just yet. With the conditions in the States, it's been so hot. You can't really play that tempo all the time. You mentioned there's a great point about the young players coming in. It is, I wouldn't say a new look because coming out of the World Cup cycle, the Atiba Hutchinson's of the world, Stephen Vittoria's

Milan Borean's got a little bit old for this level of football. Atiba retired. Vittoria is still playing as is Milan Borean, but he's gone to another more youthful field to this side, identity. And it's really working so far. Young players showcasing themselves. A lot of these players are already getting moves or being linked with big moves to big European teams.

Moise Bambito, for example. Ismail Koning has already moved to Marseille during this tournament. He signed the deal, having gone from Watford in England. So you're seeing these guys showcase their ability under Jesse Marsh, and he's done a great job so far. Listen, we'll find out. There'll be adversity at some point. Of course there will be.

But as far as any expectations we had of this team under Jesse Marsh in this tournament, they've blown those expectations away. You know, talking about some of these young guys there's this one guy from nova scotia jacob schaffelberg who people are calling that the maritime messy which is kind of funny yeah it's always funny in football we know we're not the most creative types right so if if something rhymes or is an alliteration we'll use it right so maritimes messy two m's let's go with that, shall we? Yeah, that works. That works, right? But the fact is, he's a young, young player.

Was originally with Toronto FC. In Toronto, I was a young player. I think I was always going to be looked at as a young player. But as they've done in recent years, they made a mistake and they let him leave for Nashville in MLS, where he's done very well on a very average team. He's shown up in the biggest moments, scoring twice against

Lionel Messi and Inter Miami in the Champions Cup. I would say it was one of my best goals of my career. Here's Schafferberg! Simply stunning! And he gave me a wink, and that was kind of

this moment where I was like, this is so cool. He's been the sensation of this tournament so far, started on the bench. In fact, when Jesse Marsh first took over the job, his first squad, Schaffelberg, wasn't in it. And he was asked about it.

And he said, listen, Jacob will be part of the squad. He's moving forward. But right now, he's not quite there. Through injuries, et cetera, he got called up. And he's now won a starting spot in some of the biggest games in this team's recent history. I can't really think right now, honestly. I'm still trying to catch my breath, but I'm just so, so happy for everyone.

He's so much fun to watch. Pure pace, pure aggression, dynamicism. He's brilliant. He'll be moving to a big club at some point for sure, although he's still very raw. But it's just fun to watch, you know. And this team, I tell you, this team is just likable. These players are fun to watch. The big names, the lesser known names they're just really just you know doing what jesse marsh says

and taking full advantage of their time in the limelight yeah i will say i'm not like a huge um watcher of soccer but this is they are very fun that that game against venezuela was very fun to watch it was non-stop right? The pace was nonstop. Yeah, it was great. And that style of football in this region, it's full of nonsense, right? The dark arts, physical, a little bit violent here and there. So it can be terrible to watch, or it can be just compelling viewing. And I think that's what it's been so far. You talked earlier about how the men's team had been kind of mired for many years,

which is very different from the women's team, who, of course, you know, got a gold medal at the Olympics in 2021. Julia Grosso from Vancouver to win it for Canada! Canada came! Canada conquered! Canada gold at Tokyo 2020! Why do you think that is? Like, what explains that historical gulf

between the men and the women's game in this country, kind of up until now? Yeah, well, I think it's important to realize that the women have already flown the flag for Canadian soccer for a long time. But they've also been operating in a much smaller world. Up until recently, most nations didn't take women's soccer seriously. Some of the biggest footballing nations didn't, that's for sure. In recent years, that's changed, thankfully. We're seeing the Englands of the world, the Italys, the Spains

of the world, really taking it seriously. Not just the States or China or Germany. The world's got a lot bigger in recent years. With the men, it's always been big. It's been a world with 215 or so federations worldwide. Canada's been competing against the world, essentially,

and having a tiny budget to do it as well. Whereas the women have been in this smaller fishbowl, which is now getting bigger, and now they're being challenged. And you listen to Bev Priestman, the coach of the women's team, all the time saying, we have to sort ourselves out because before you know it, we'll be left behind. So I think it's changing somewhat in that regard but that's been the main reason you know the men have been competing against a sport that has been cemented in the psyche of the world sport watching viewers but for you know 100 years Let's talk a little bit about the game tonight.

I know everybody thinks Argentina's going to win. Jesse March, the coach, has talked about how he wants to rely on the athleticism and the physicality of these players to muddy up the game a bit rather than try to play a technical game against the best team in the world but you know what what kind of chances do you think canada has against argentina tonight i know you mentioned this earlier but like it's possible right well hey listen i've seen some pretty weird stuff happen in soccer right over the years anything's possible um it's highly unlikely they'll they'll get a win out of this this one if they try and play football going toe-to-toe with

argentina they'll lose so jesse marsh is right they've got to try and stymie that that wonderful attack of of argentina but what people need to realize is argentina can play both ways they can play beautiful sublime attractive football. But they can also get in the trenches, right, and get nasty. That's South American football. It's not just about the flair. It's also about getting dirty in the dirty areas. So they can play that way as well. They're well aware of it.

The fact that Argentina played Canada already in this tournament and saw a little bit of that, they won't be taken by any kind of surprise. So they can adapt perhaps more so than Canada. But listen, Canada will sit back, I'm sure, to a certain degree. But when they get the ball, they're very quick in transition to attack. And they've got great pace where they can cause some issues for any team in the world. Can they convert those chances?

That's been the problem so far in this tournament, that their finishing ability hasn't quite been where it can be. So listen, yes, Canada could win. If they do, it'll be one of the great shocks that we've seen in this country or perhaps the world scene at this point in the tournament. We can dream. There's still time to dream. It's a hope that kills you. Before we we go this tournament uh was always a party before the party really a kind of warm-up for the 2026 world cup which is going to be held in mexico the united states and here in canada so it's a moment people have been waiting for in this country for a long time and you know regardless of what happens tonight uh where where does this tournament leave this team now two years away from a World Cup?

With the caveat that if they do win, it would obviously leave them in a better place. Of course. Honestly, at this point, it doesn't matter. The result, I think they've done the job at this tournament. The momentum's back. The hype is back. Here we go! Here we go!

Yeah! I've never seen bars like it around Toronto, where I live. It's so important to start building towards the World Cup in 2026. There's some real great momentum with this team. I think it'll be a successful World Cup regardless of Canada because it's a World Cup and the travelling support will make it that. But I really believe that with Canada playing so well and giving hope to football in this country, it's going to only make it that. But I really believe that, that with Canada playing so well and giving hope to football in this country,

it's going to only drive it forward. You throw in a great Olympics from the women as well. The whole, you know, this journey towards becoming a soccer nation will take one giant step closer. And it's going to be so much easier to promote this men's team

and these individual players, which they must do to lead up to a World Cup with a successful team. So yeah, they've done their job here. A good performance against Argentina

followed by next summer. A good performance, a Gold Cup. And watch out, we've almost arrived. Okay. James, this was really fun. Thank you.

And I'm looking forward even more to watching tonight. So thank you. I've done my job then. Thank you so much. All right. That is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson.

Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.