Front Burner - Canada's baffling soccer spying scandal

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

Canada's women's soccer team went into the 2024 Olympics with their title as defending gold medalists on the line — but they now find themselves mired in allegations of cheating after a team analyst was caught flying a drone over a New Zealand training session.Canada is certainly not the first soccer team to be caught spying on rivals' practices.But why would they try it at such a highly scrutinized tournament?And what could it mean for the future of the sport in Canada as allegations continue to emerge that this may be something Canada's national teams have been doing for years?James Sharman, host of the podcast Footy Prime, breaks it all down.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. So we are just days into the 2024 Paris Olympics. And heading into these games, there were a lot of eyes on Canada's women's soccer team, looking to defend their gold medal from Tokyo in 2021.

Julia Grosso from Vancouver to win it for Canada! Canada came! Canada conquered! Canada gold at Tokyo 2020! But now, the team has been penalized for cheating, for flying a drone over a closed practice that New Zealand was having ahead of the tournament. And then it got worse. There's been a bunch of reporting suggesting that this is something that Canada's soccer has been doing for years, and not just the women's team, the men's too.

James Sharman is a longtime soccer journalist here in Toronto and the host of the podcast Footy Prime. He is back on the show today to talk about drone gate, including why risk this and what this could mean for Canadian soccer. James, hey, it's so great to have you on. So soon after the last time we had you on, we were talking about the men's soccer run at the Copa America tournament. So here we are. I guess we're like a soccer podcast now.

I guess so. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I mean, obviously the last one was nothing but celebration, right? This brilliant run of Canada at Copa America. Everyone's happy. Canadian football is going in the right direction. And then this. Yeah, bit of a different vibe with this one. So I know that all of this news has been plastered everywhere since it broke a few days ago.

But I do want to go over some of the basics with you so we can all get caught up this team Canada staffer who was caught flying the drone over the New Zealand practice who was this person and what exactly was their connection to the team right so the person's name was a Lombardi and he's a longtime staff member of Canadian soccer and Ontario soccer as well very respected guy great guy by all accounts. But he's a kind of backroom staff analysis type of role. But he also is the drone pilot. Now, in soccer, drones aren't forbidden. In fact, they're used by most teams

to film their own practices and training sessions. So you can, you know, then you have tape of that and then you can take it back to the players and point certain things out. So usually 99% of the time he's doing it legitimately. But in this case, it seems he was given orders either passively or directly up the chain of command, which ends with Beverly Priestman,

who's been in charge of Canada's women's teams since just prior to the last Olympic Games, which of course they won and got the gold medal. So that's kind of the order of events there. And then he got caught because the New Zealand team and coaches noticed a drone over their training session, which not only is frowned upon in football circles but in the olympics it's illegal um there's no fly zone over all olympic

areas um listen they're there yeah exactly they're on high alert anyway right in in france so um the police got involved uh arrested him raided his room and they got all the information they needed okay uh what do we know about what was on that drone camera not not specifics but essentially they were taking video of the the new zealand team training now now we can get into how important that is what they can actually garner from such footage but essentially they're looking at formations tactical plays um set piece plays from say corners or free kicks they could be looking at who's who's playing who's starting for new zealand who might be injured there's a plethora of information you could get from that i suppose um but quite honestly more and more people you speak to say there's very little you

can really garner from that as you may know there's a big story involving the Canadian women's national team with the drone and a lot of people are saying oh this is something that happens in football all the time is that true? Yeah it happens a few times and I mean you know it doesn't really affect the result of the game. You're not going to be that surprised by anything too incredible game day that you need to do that surprised by anything too incredible game day that you need to do that.

Yeah. Not to mention the fact that the Kiwis, this is a good emerging football nation, but they're not very good, right? Canada beat them and should have beaten them and has generally beaten them over the last number of years with or without, you know, cheating

and spying on their training sessions. You know, I have to say, when I first found out about this scandal, this drone gate, one of the first things I did think to myself was like, this really seemed to me like a pretty high risk, low reward scenario. Yeah, it's unbelievable arrogance and stupidity from the coaching staff to do this. Because like you said, you don't get that much from it. Now, I'm sure there are true believers that it's really important,

but there's this real culture of secrecy and overthinking in football and sports in general from the coaches. So maybe they believe in it. It's really important. But yeah, I mean, listen, you can watch game footage, right? Of every match that New Zealand has played.

Yeah. The last 10 years right it's not a problem you know the players you watch them for their clubs that's what scouting is for so you know to do this just tells me that this coaching staff were overthinking absolutely everything and to take it to the olympic games is a new level of stupidity and arrogance you know thinking that they're above everything and they'll get away with it. So, you know, that's the most engulfing part of this whole thing, how stupid these individuals were to think they could actually get away with it and thought it was that important. The international soccer body FIFA came down quite hard on the team for this,

if you think that's fair. So on Saturday, they docked the women's team six points in the tournament. They banned three staffers for a year, including the hedge coach, Bev Priestman, as you mentioned. Bev Priestman released a statement, the first since she was booted from the team. I'm absolutely heartbroken for the players, and I would like to apologize from the bottom of my heart for the impact this situation has had on all of them, she wrote. No comment, though, on the spying. They fined Canada Soccer $313,000. And so what do you make of the severity of the punishments, particularly

docking the women's team six points in the tournament? Yeah, I mean, listen, it's extremely harsh punishment. I think it's fitting. As unfair as it is on the players, and we'll get to that, it really is on the players. You have to be gutted for them. It's not their fault. But to cheat, and I think that the language that FIFA used was they were responsible for offensive behavior and violation of the principles of fair play. This comes from FIFA, which is a bit rich,

but overall, I mean, six points is usually enough to, to guarantee a team won't get out of its group. But Canada is now after that famous win on Sunday against France are still in the driver's seat. If they win against Columbia, they can get out, but still that is a big punishment. You don't see that very often.

I can't remember the last time it's happened within a tournament. So this is very much a case of FIFA and the IOC using Canada as an example, setting a precedent here. Canada's a bit of a soft target, right? It's not like it's Spain, the world champions, or it's the US team, or it's England teams. There's this juggernaut, a machine behind them. This is still a pretty small nation, the grand scheme of things, who they could set an example at. So as much as I think it is very harsh, I at the same point think you have to be harsh in these situations. The message is now sent right across the world, don't do this anymore, or you will suffer the consequences. Just explain to me a little bit more how it works, like how they could conceivably get

out of this, as you mentioned. Yeah. So the way it works, there's only 12 teams actually in the Olympic Games women's soccer tournament, and the top two teams in each group will advance, plus I think two of the best third place teams. So if Canada beat Colombia on Wednesday, they will finish likely second in the group, which means they will advance to the quarterfinals.

So they beat New Zealand. And there is the whistle. Three points in the books. It wasn't a work of art, but the Canadian team will celebrate it. A victory. So they're on three points. Then the band came down, so they're on minus three points. So now they won one more. They're on zero. What looked like an improbable comeback, and what a late-minute miracle

by the woman they call the magnet, Vanessa Gilles. by the woman they call the magnet, Vanessa Gilles. Halcyon, amazing, zero. What a great success, right? But then they beat Columbia and they will progress. Okay, okay. So they could still do this. They could still do this.

Now, I should mention that they have officially... Appealed, right? Appealed, yeah, exactly. It came down earlier on Monday that they have appealed. So they could get that six-point penalty reduced possibly, which might change some things up in their favor as well. But we won't know that for a while. But I imagine we'll find out, obviously, before the match on Wednesday.

And I think it's probably really important for us to note here that there's no evidence at this time that the players themselves knew that this drone spying was happening, right? No, no, exactly. They, at this point, completely not complicit. I think we're disappointed in the events that have occurred and that have come out. I think we want to make sure though that we have our team focused on the tournament. We're obviously super disappointed in the events that have happened. It does not reflect Canadians or who we are as competitors. So, yeah, there's a lot of disappointment there, but we've worked really hard to get here as a group of players.

Now, that being said, even if there was some suspicion about where the coaches got their intel from, these are players, they're there to play football. there's obviously a power dynamic with the coaching staff with the players uh so you know it would take a strong person to confront the coaches so at this point as far as i'm concerned the players are innocent they've really taken the raw end of this at this point and they've been let down by their supposed leaders. then free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here.

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That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. this podcast, just search for Money for Cups. I was listening to Vanessa Gilles talk on Sunday after that comeback victory against France. It was really

heartbreaking to hear her talking about how difficult this has been for the team since the news broke. We haven't slept in the last three days. We haven't eaten. We've been crying. I wouldn't say they're ideal performing situations, but we've held each other through it,

and we've had absolutely nothing to lose. What's given us energy is each other, is our determination, is our pride to prove people wrong, our pride to represent this country when all this shit is coming out about our values, about our representation as Canadians. It's not us. Like I've said time and time again, I'm defending ourselves. We're not cheaters.

We're damn good players. We're a damn good team. We're a damn good group. I mean, this is something that these athletes have worked their whole lives for. Yeah, this is Olympic Games, right? And in women's soccer, the Olympics is right there alongside the World Cup. It's full senior sides the men's tournament is under 23s doesn't have the same cadence as as uh the world cup but the women's

does this is an enormous tournament a once in a lifetime for some of these players so they've trained so hard for this they're defending their gold medal as well don't forget that they won it in tokyo so it's an enormous moment for them so to be let down and you're right those comments from vanessa were fantastic she was said that she'd been crying but she was angry and i kept hearing that word from numerous players how angry they were they'd been let down i'm not sure how popular uh beth prizman was with this group to begin with um but to have this now you know implode in their faces I think uh they've got every right to be so angry and frustrated

and hold that star of a cannibal but it seems they're using it to galvanize themselves and you saw those celebrations in that match yesterday that wasn't your typical goal celebration right that was like yeah players who were pissed off, were angry, and were fighting for their reputations. There it is. Vanessa Gilles! Moving forward as a centre-back. She plays her professional soccer in France, and she scores to make it 2-1 Canada in a must-win game. We saw Christine Sinclair put out a statement. We saw Steph Labbe put out a statement saying, listen, we never knew anything about this in the past, in previous camps.

Longtime captain Christine Sinclair insists, we were never shown or discussed drone footage in team or individual meetings I've been present for. They're fighting for their reputations at this point. They're being slandered in many cases. So if they didn't know about it, I think it's well within their rights to defend themselves. And the reason that we're seeing those statements

from Sinclair and Labe is because of another aspect of the story, right? Which is that reporting has come to light in recent days suggesting that this has gone kind of far beyond this isolated incident in Paris. Weeks after the men's national team thrilled Canadians with a historic run at the Copa America tournament, now comes a blunt admission from Canada Soccer's top executive. I'm aware of an instance of attempted drone usage during Copa America. Go back as far as 2019 to a men's game in Florida against the U.S. team, and a drone was used by the Canadian men's team staff to spy on the U.S. practice.

What exactly are the allegations that are being made about Canada soccer's use of drones more broadly? We're talking about the women's team, but we're also talking about the men's team. Yeah, and not just drones, but just spying in general. Literally hiding in bushes with cameras. Yes, that is one of the allegations that TSN is reporting. Yes, literally. You couldn't make it up, could you? Or hiding in stadiums, you know,

and just, you know, filming or just watching the opponents train. A Canadian coach finds a way to get to a Japanese training session, not once, but twice, to two training sessions and secretly record that practice. So this goes, goes,

apparently it seems to go way back. Beth Priestman was originally an assistant under John Herbman, who obviously coached the women to great success, went to the men's team and then coached the men's team to great success as well. Well, I find for a world cup, well,

well, Herman's being linked now with use of drones and spying, which if not rampant in football, is certainly not uncommon in fairness. But there's a lot of noise around John Herbin now when he was Canada coach. In 2021, as the Honduran men's squad came to Toronto for a World Cup qualifying match, they reportedly spotted a drone flying overhead during their training and suspected Canada of spying. The response from Canada's then coach aired on Honduran media. A lot of people in Canada that fly drones, I'm sure.

And when a big team like Honduras turn up, I'm sure people are probably interested in what they're doing. There was an article from ESPN talking about how the US program were well aware of it and confronted him at some point, but never made it official, never went to any, went to CONCACAF or FIFA just to protect the relationship between the two federations. So this goes way back. It seems that we're actually, you know, quite progressive and pioneers in this, which is something I suppose in football, you know, we were criticized and we're maligned so much in this game, but you know, we're getting some notice now,

aren't we? Right. So, uh, yeah. And then listen in football, it's so funny, right?

Because football soccer, it's not known for its fair play. Is it, you know, it's being drowned in corruption in the past. You watch any match, the Copa America, we,

we joked about it, right? The, the embellishment, the diving, the faking, the injuries, the, you you know doing all you can to con the referee it's kind of part of the game right right but the idea yeah is the implication here that this is really crosses an obvious line or yeah is there a sense of this that other teams are doing this too oh yeah absolutely yeah I mean

listen this isn't a one-off like we are doing it and no one else is this is this happens a lot around the world has done for many years um there was a famous case in in england a few years ago now in the league below the premier league a famous coach called marcelo bialza one of the most storied famous coaches in world football he coached leads united and in a match against darby county it came out that he had literally had a staff member who was in a bush filming training and he got caught for it he then the next day had this this hour and a half press conference with a powerpoint presentation admitting it all saying yeah I've always done this it happens it's what people do I don't need to go to watch the training session of an opponent to know how the opponent plays. Why do I go?

Because it's not forbidden. There was a case with Jose Mourinho, one of the most famous coaches in world football years ago at Chelsea, spying on his opponents before. It happens quite a lot. Now, it doesn't make it right. I'm not condoning it by any stretch. But to say that the thing that Canada is the only team doing this,

I think, is quite naive. But that's not to say they're all doing it. And it is wrong. And they should be punished for it. But just why then, if this does happen, maybe, you know, it's not ubiquitous, but if it does happen, why is FIFA just coming down now? Is it because it's the Olympics? I think so, yeah. I think that's the main thing is the Olympic Games, right, which is supposed to be, you know, the bastion of good sportsmanship, right?

We know it's not. We know it's got its own problems, its own demons, right? But I think the fact that it's the Olympic Games, the fact that it was an official complaint to the IFC and to FIFA from New Zealand, the fact that it was illegal, as you mentioned, they're flying a drone, you know, in France at the time.

It was also the week before the whole Games kicked off, right? It was before the opening ceremony. So there wasn't much going on so people were looking for a story as well which which blew up internationally because of that um and also you know i i've heard through a few people here that you know like i mentioned canada's been known to have done this for some time i'm not sure if they were officially charged before i don't think so but they may well have been warned by fifa in the. So if that was the case, if, and then this comes to light,

then you can understand why FIFA is saying, listen, we've warned you already about this. This is, you know, we have to come down harder than you in this situation. So I think that's why it really became what it has become. We were talking about John Herdman before, who is now the coach of the Toronto FC and MLS. I just want to note before we move on, like he was asked about this

and he did dance around the question a little bit, but he eventually did say. In my time as a head coach at an Olympic Games or World Cup, we've never been involved in any of those activities. Priestman, the women's coach, she has apologized to the team for letting them down, but she hasn't addressed the actual drone allegations. Here's a quote from her.

I wish I could say more, but I will refrain at this time given about where this could go from here. So Sports Minister Carla Qualtrough said on Sunday that the government is withholding funding from Canada Soccer over the situation. Canada Soccer says it's going to do an external review. Canada Soccer over the situation. Canada Soccer says it's going to do an external review. And what ramifications do you think this could all have for Canada Soccer at a time when soccer is kind of taking this really center stage, you know, fantastic place in the country and in our culture, right? Yeah, it is. But it's only a few weeks removed from the hearing, the government hearings, right? And the results of that regarding the whole allegations from the players about the CSB deal, this business deal in place, the CBA negotiations between men and the women and the governing body, which are still yet to be signed, although I'm hearing this getting closer and closer. So, you know, the Copa America was good timing because it had been a really rough year. But that really helped things elevate things.

But now the government's looking into this. I don't know what the ramifications can be. Listen, to start with, they have to clean out the staff, right? So one thing about Canada Soccer at the moment, there's new leadership in place. And Kevin Blue, Peter Grusso, the they are they are new faces on the national scene and kevin blue in particular comes from golf and he comes from u.s sport as well and not even soccer so he's a real fresh set of eyes and they've been very very quick to you know denounce this and while we are certainly reserving judgment until the conclusion of our review. The concrete information I received yesterday

made me consider the possibility, at least, that this matter is much more extensive. Send Beverly, Bev home and sit her down from that first match and of course now being banned for a year from football. So they're doing all the right things right now. It's unfair to kind of think, hold this current Canada soccer leadership compared to them of the past

where they've got all these indiscretions and problems. So it seems they've got the right people in place now to really push forward. And I think that the review in the end will probably cost Beth Priestman her job. She's out of football anyway for a year. And who knows who else, right? Who's associated with her?

Who was complicit in this spying culture within the coaching staff in Canada soccer? Was it just the women? Was it the men as well? Rick West had a column last week as well, a couple of columns in TSN talking about that, how the men were using drones as well under John Herbin. So there's a lot still we don't know about um but from what I've heard from numerous people you know it was pretty poorly kept secret that Canada did these types of things um in big games and John like I said John Herbin spoke

and denied ever doing at Olympics or World Cups which he did deny but he didn't mention anything about qualifying games or other matches did he so you know it could be that they that will come out at some point that that was used can they apologize and say we won't do it again will that be enough i don't know the other thing i want to ask you about before we go is that one of the allegations here is that that's the spying was done in the lead-up to the 2021 to Summer Olympics, where, of course, the women came home with that gold medal. I read allegations in Rick Westhead's piece in TSN, where he quoted anonymous sources saying that there were drones used in the lead up to that, but also the bushes, the hiding in the bushes stuff. To what extent do you think that these allegations might tarnish that incredible legacy?

Well, I guess the fear is, you know, is there a potential for that gold medal to be stripped? Yeah. Is there? Now, I can't see it myself. I mean, I understand why, you know, an athlete in an individual sport who gets busted for steroid abuse, you know, gets a medal stripped. I understand that. But for a coaching staff to, you know, spy on the opponent's training session during a tournament that they go on to win, I mean, that would be beyond harsh on those players. I think that's too much. And I'm not condoning this at all. Like I said, six points to me is okay. But to take that medal away is just too much.

Does it tarnish it? I think it's a personal thing, right? Some people might see it as tarnished and might look upon that team differently. I don't think I do. Just because I'm a little bit jaded in that my view of football is that there's a lot of crap that goes on

in a lot of different ways on many teams, you know, that could tarnish performances and the way we look at certain teams. And this is certainly one that could for Canada. But yeah, the way they won that tournament, I mean, that wasn't through brilliant tactics or, you know, individual brilliance. That was through guts and determination.

That's how they won it. Right. If you remember. So, yeah. But listen, strange things have happened. Right. But that would be, man, that would be something else if they, if they took that medal away.

Yeah, yeah. All right. So, you know, lots to still follow with this story. But James, thank you so much for coming by and taking us through it. That was great. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anytime.

All right. That is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.