Front Burner - Céline Dion’s surprising next chapter

Episode Date: November 25, 2019

Céline Dion is one of Canada’s most successful recording artists — and according to some, the country's most culturally unappreciated star. But lately, she has found herself in a strange new place: people aren't snickering at her music or even hiding the fact that they like her. In fact, she's become a meme-able national treasure, an even bigger LGBTQ icon and a fashion plate for cutting-edge designers — a veritable "Célinaissance." On Front Burner, guest host Elamin Abdelmahmoud is joined by Carl Wilson, a music critic for Slate and the author of Let’s Talk About Love: A Journey to the End of Taste, to discuss the Canadian icon.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. I'm Elamin Abdelmahmoud, sitting in for Jamie Poisson. Don't give up on your faith. Love comes to those who believe it. And that's the way it is.

After four decades of being a popular megastar, somehow Celine Dion has found herself a new place. She's managed to reach a different new height. I don't know if you've noticed this, but people are not snickering at her music or not even trying to hide the fact that they like her. She's managed to become this memeable national treasure, an LGBTQ icon, and a fashion plate for cutting-edge designers. Just a few months after wrapping up a 16-year run in Vegas, Celine's got a new album out. It's called Courage, and she's out there in the world touring with it to sold-out arenas.

So many people came to see us. And now we really all think that it's time for us to go and see them. How did we get here? Today I'm talking to Carl Wilson, music writer and critic for Slate. He wrote a book back in the mid-2000s about Celine. It's called Let's Talk About Love, A Journey to the End of Taste. This is Frontburner. Hello, Carl. Hi. Carl, I want to go back to the excellent year of 2007 when your book was released. The title was A Journey to the End of Taste.

So at that time, what was the relationship between Celine Dion's music and this idea of taste? Well, I at the time was using Celine in a lot of ways as kind of a representative of the kind of artist who divides fans and critics. The kind of person who doesn't have the kind of cultural cachet, but does have mass popularity. And as a critic, I wanted to examine that problem and try to figure out how those kind of chasms open up between different communities of taste in that sense. You know, I was not a fan for most of Celine's heyday in the late 90s. I'm falling into you. It's a talk about love. It's a song as old as one. Beauty and the love of you. She was pretty ubiquitous.

I lived in Montreal at the time, and so you were particularly exposed. And I'd always had a kind of instinctive rejection of her music. And so I wanted to examine why I had that reaction and to try and understand what her fans were appreciating about her. and to try and understand what her fans were appreciating about her. And the book looks at her in many ways to figure that out, but also looks at how taste works in general to figure that out. And that all made sense up until about three or four years ago when the idea that Céline Dion was ever something that people were ashamed to like or that she was ever

a divisive figure suddenly became rendered absurd. And this grand cultural consensus arose that she's the best and everybody's always thought so and who would be so crazy as to have any problem with Céline Dion. So in many ways, my book now feels like its terms have been inverted. And, you know, future future civilizations will look at it and go, what was this man talking about? But you but you weren't alone. You weren't alone in 2007 in sort of feeling like Céline is sort of like this over the top schmaltzy artist. Like that was it was kind of with the consensus at the time. It was the get it was conventional wisdom. And particularly, you know, if you look at the way that she was often represented in the press and in the media, the kind of snooty reaction to her was pretty typical.

And in the book, I have, you know, pages and pages of examples of just terrible insults that people directed at her for decades. And yet that's all turned around for a variety of reasons, partly, I think, for things that have happened in the culture and also things that I think have happened with her. Now, even then you saw the renaissance of Celine Dion coming. And here we are 13 years later. Is it playing out the way that you thought it would? imagined, you know, there's a cycle that culture goes through, where usually after sort of the 20 years after the time that something was big and famous, and usually big and famous and divisive, the edges all soften, you know, and we look back, and we see somebody more as a representative of that time period and of our memories of what the culture was like at that time. And, you know, if you think about late 90s culture, the differences between Celine Dion and, like, Smash Mouth don't feel like they're that important.

You know, they kind of sound similar now in a way that would have been impossible to imagine then. But I think there's more than that. I think that because of the way that she's seized on this kind of new phase of her life, you know, partly beginning through those Las Vegas residencies, which was kind of a whole new model of how to sort of manage your mid-career. And then the biggest transformation took place three years ago when her long, long time husband and manager, Reneélil, died. And, you know, this was her like quarter century older husband who'd started managing her when she

was a teenager. With children of his own, Angélil was sheepish to admit he had been seeing someone 26 years younger. The couple would marry in 1994 at Montreal's Notre-Dame Basilica, a lavish ceremony with a star-studded guest list. heartbroken over his death. At the same time, she's clearly seized the opportunity to be in command of her own path, her own career. And year by year, more and more, we've been seeing her sort of performing her enjoyment of this stage of her life and this kind of real kind of middle aged liberation in a lot of ways. And people are responding to that. I want to talk a little bit about that because, you know, I think like the way that we think about how Renee kind of crafted her career is to be this capital D sort of diva.

And now she seems to be having a lot of fun with that. Yeah. I think that, you know, Renee came from a very old fashioned Quebecois showbiz culture. The way that people often refer to the division is that there was kind of a division between the chanteur kind of tradition in Quebec, which is the more sort of serious-minded singer-songwriter, often very politicized and nationalist Quebec culture, and then on the other side, a kind of longer standing, older kind of variety show tradition, you know, that people like Diane Dufresne would represent, which was much more of a sort of diva kind of champagne and tuxedos and gowns kind of world. And René represented that end of it. And so that's sort of what he brought C into, big outfits and big hair and shiny lights. And so that's what, when it translated over into a more worldwide and especially sort of English language debut, she ended up being very tied to kind of a Hollywood or Broadway kind of sense of what a diva is like and fitting into that kind of more

old-fashioned worldview you know she collaborated with Streisand you know as somebody like a couple of generations younger than Streisand right in a way that you know nobody else in the 90s would have done very few I was gonna say because most people seem to know her from that period of time where she did songs for like Sleepless in Seattle or Titanic. And it's just like a very sort of grand stage, taking yourself very seriously kind of artistry. I know that my heart will go on. Yeah, seriously in the sense of kind of real showbiz,

but not seriously in the way that people think of sort of serious creative work. And again, not that the music doesn't have real high points, but when somebody's sort of big successes are kind of associated very strongly with being kind of Disney theme song kind of level that that's a particular niche in the culture. But on the past few albums, you, you felt her like pushing a little bit more and more towards wanting to play

with more contemporary sounds and wanting to collaborate with, you know, younger and, and more innovative producers and songwriters. She's much more playful and experimental and just kind of feeling her way and more spontaneously expressive than when she seemed to be sort of in a bit of a box under Renee's management. So her experimentation, her sort of trying to push the envelope of what Celine is as an idea, has kind of opened her up to new kinds of fandoms.

There's always been her status in the LGBTQ community. We saw that there was a viral clip of her singing her own songs at a karaoke drag show in New York. I look to the sky now. I'm finding my way. I'm flying on my own. And we're seeing this new embrace, this mainstreaming of drag culture, like kids saying Yas Queen or RuPaul's Drag Race, and this FX TV show Pose.

Do you think there's any connection between that mainstreaming of drag culture and Celine Dion? Well, she's always been, at least since the mid-late 90s, a favorite among drag performers as someone to do, particularly in Vegas, and especially because she's associated herself with Vegas. They're sort of Celine and Cher are kind of the two big modern drag icons on that level, right? But she used to kind of keep herself at one removed from that, and she would acknowledge her LGBTQ fans in light ways,

but again, kind of kept her distance and that that's one of the other things that's transformed so yeah she made this appearance at a drag bar when she was releasing this album it was the thing she did the night that album was released which is like a very direct and bold statement and she's you know cavorting on the open road with them right Right. And it's super fun, and she's enjoying that. Hi, guys. Let's hit it, girls. Every night in my dreams I see you

I feel you It's going to be a long drive. And, yeah, and she's much more directly acknowledging her position as a gay icon on that level. And again, at one point that would have been something that I think Rene and the people around her would have been a little nervous about being too openly acknowledging of, even though that fan base has been important to her for a couple of decades now. I also have to say that she's one of the first artists that I think of when someone thinks of the word camp. She's a very campy artist. And this year, the Met Gala theme was camp. And some of the jokes that I saw flying around was all Celine had to do was just show up.

And she was perfectly camp right there. That's true, although she did much more than that. Yes, she did. She showed up in this amazing Oscar de la Renta outfit with this incredible headpiece with, like, branching sort of spider legs coming out in gold on top. And a gown to match. And, yeah, immediately kind of conquered the red carpet there. a gown to match, and yeah, immediately kind of conquered the red carpet there. This is very funny.

Afterwards, she said that she hadn't actually understood what the theme meant at first. She was like, I thought maybe we were all going to sleep over and camp out. Amazing. I wasn't sure what it meant. I thought like camping. I mean, we go camping. How do you explain the fandom among people who were still kids in the 90s, who maybe didn't get the reasons

why we should cringe at the fact that she exists or her music? Why do you think they've just kind of open arms embraced her? Well, I think it partly is that kind of childhood nostalgia. And we see that a little bit about sort of late 90s culture in general. There's been a kind of childhood nostalgia. And we see that a little bit about sort of late 90s culture in general.

There's been a kind of comeback. And, you know, they remember the songs and they remember the images and they remember, you know, the Titanic movie. But they don't remember there being any conflict over it. These were just things that were fun and were ubiquitous. And so it's easy to sort of skip all of the brouhaha and just enjoy that. But I think it's also, with that stigma removed, the fact that Celine is such an over-the-top,

kind of very funny and warm and kind of gushing personality, all of that I think just seems really endearing to young people now. And she's kind of like your crazy aunt now, you know? I think there's that kind of affection for her. Well, thank you for flying to Montreal. Oh, come on. I mean, I'd crawl. Oh, come on, come on, don't get me started.

Do you think those young people really enjoy the music or just enjoy the irony of it? I think that the way that people are embracing Celine right now, I mean, it's the whole phenomenon of her and it's not confined to the music, for sure. But I think there's also a way of listening

that just questions whether there's a difference between those kinds of pleasures. You know, I think that rather than taking an ironic stance, there's a kind of affirmation of the joy of listening openheartedly rather than cynically. But I don't think there's anything condescending about the way people are listening to her. than cynically. But I don't think there's anything condescending about the way people are listening to her. I think that's a vast difference from how people might have embraced, even a decade ago, might have embraced the sort of kitsch factor of what she's doing. I think that now people

are identifying with that kitsch factor, not holding it at a distance. I remember she did the song for Deadpool 2, and the reaction to that song was, what is this sort of all over-the-top, campy performance that we're seeing? I mean, Deadpool is a perfect vehicle for that, but I think a lot of people were introduced to her through that. I'm out of ashes We need to do it again.

It's too good. Yeah, this is Deadpool 2, not Titanic. You're at like an 11. We need to get you down to a 5, 5 1⁄2 tops. Listen, this thing only goes to 11. So beat it, Spider-Man. And that's something I think more and more that has been appealing about her

and that she's become good at. I think she's more comfortable in her own skin than she used to be and that allows her to make fun of herself in a way that I think she was... She always did to a degree, but I think there was some tension about being made fun of.

And therefore... But now that she's... Now she can do the making fun and embrace the kind of goofy side of her image. You know, and a great example was when she did the James Corden carpool karaoke

and she was making fun of herself on a thousand levels in that video. I feel like there's no song on earth that you couldn't make dramatic. I can make something funny dramatic. Like, do you know this song, Baby Shark? Baby shark, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. Baby shark, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo.

Again, it's just like this comfort with sending herself up on that level was really present there. Now, can we talk a little bit about her core audience? You know, when you first wrote your book, there were some stats put together on who her American listeners were. There were 75% less likely to be teenagers. Back 45% of them were over 50 years old.

They were overwhelmingly women. And they were three and a half times more likely to be widowed. It's so surprising the things that statistics can tell you Yeah, but yeah, I think that the her audience was precisely not the people Who define what is cool, you know? You know, I mean the the cliched thing at the time would have been to say that she's what your mom listens to, right? that's remained true, but just for like more generations of moms and she's probably still not going to be riding high on the charts with this album you know but she does have a hardcore fan base that is going to be

with her for life in that way the surprising thing is just that like new members of other generations keep feeding into that fan base and more and more of the world feeds into that fan base all the time. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Let's talk about the new album, Courage.

Is it memorable? Is it one for the ages? Yeah, I think that among her English language albums, it's probably the second best. Oh, wow. Since Falling Into You in 1996, which had some of her really most sort of solid classics on it. But I think that the centering theme of dealing with Renee's death and mourning and carrying on and this kind of new lease on life that followed from that has really organized this album coherently in a way that's unusual amongst Celine's albums. Usually there's not a thematic coherence to her work.

It's, you know, a bunch of love songs, usually. And this album is a bunch of love songs, too, but it's a bunch of love songs really centered around this experience of loss and renewal. And then there are songs like Lovers Never Die, which is really, as far as I can tell, a song that she's using to get out the other side of mourning which is which is the anger and despair and sense of abandonment and that kind of thing which is which are edgy things for her to express and she swears in this album well and then yes

then the final song in the album suddenly she lets out an s word in the song Perfect Goodbye, which I had to rewind a few times and see if I'd really heard what I thought I had heard. So, yes, that's definitely setting new, netting new marks in Selenology there. Do you see the Selenissance ending anytime soon? I don't think so. I mean, as long as she wants to continue to sort of pour the amount of energy and public activity into it that she has been, I think that we've got a good run here. I mean, what I'm curious about is where she'll be at another decade from now. Right.

You know, it's almost impossible to imagine what kind of, like, late twilight period we get from, so then it's hard to say. But, yeah, I think it's a cause for optimism to see somebody have this kind of third act in culture. You know, it doesn't happen that often. Carl Wilson, thank you so much for not making me fly on my own today. Thank you so much. Pleasure. And if you whisper like that It was not long ago

But it's all coming back to me That is among the great power ballads, if there is ever such a thing. It's all coming back to me now, Celine Dion. It's one of Jim Steinman's finest works. My name is Elamin Abdelmahmoud. I'm in for Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much for listening today.

Have a great day. But it's home coming back to me now.