Front Burner - Choose your fighter: The F-35 saga

Episode Date: March 31, 2022

After years of delays, Canada is upgrading its air force and replacing its fleet of aging CF-18 fighters with the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II — a jet the Liberals once vowed they would never buy. The stealth fighter jet has long been touted as the future of aerial warfare, but the debate over buying a fleet has dragged on for more than a decade, starting under the Harper government. On the campaign trail in 2015, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said the F-35 would be a "nightmare" for Canadian taxpayers. Today on Front Burner, we talk to Ottawa Citizen's Defence Reporter David Pugliese about why, after disavowing the F-35 fighter jet, the Liberals have decided to launch negotiations to buy 88 of them at an expected cost of $19-billion.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Music Today we are one step Air Force, replacing its fleet of aging CF-18s with a jet the Liberals once vowed they would never buy. That F-35 might be Stephen

Harper's dream, but I can tell you for Canadian taxpayers, it'll be a nightmare. The F-35 stealth fighter jet has long been touted as the future of aerial warfare. But we've been down the road with this plane before. The back and forth over buying in has been dragging on for more than a decade. I'm convinced the F-35 is good for Canada. Yes, since the Harper years. But what followed was years of political headaches over the rising costs of the deal. The Auditor General set off a fiery debate in the House of Commons on Tuesday when he said the cost of the F-35s had been misstated and that Parliament and Canadians had been misled.

Then as recently as 2015, when Justin Trudeau was blazing the campaign trail, the F-35 became this political football. It's a stealth fighter that will cost tens of billions more than what Harper promised, a stealth fighter that can't defend our Arctic, a stealth fighter that's not actually stealth, and until yesterday, a fighter jet that Stephen Harper's own government put on hold for those same reasons. After winning the election, the deal seemed dead, but now a resurrection. So today we're talking to the Ottawa Citizen's defence reporter, David Pugliese,

about why, after disavowing the F-35 fighter jet, the Liberals have decided to make the $19 billion purchase and the long saga that led up to this point. Hey, David, it's so great to have you back on the podcast. Oh, great to be here. Thank you. But before we get into the saga, and it's been a real saga of the deal and why we may or may not need these planes, I wonder if you may be able just to tell me broadly, for someone who doesn't know very much about jets, what did these jets actually do the F-35 fighter jet?

Like, what is it? Well, the F-35 is a stealth fighter that the US military has developed. It is their main fighter aircraft. The US has many military aircraft, obviously, but this is going to be their main aircraft. And it was designed to be a low-cost stealth plane that various allies could use as well. So it would be kind of used around the world by U.S. allies, supposedly low-cost. And that was the idea when they first started developing this in well Canada signed on to research on on this aircraft in 1997. How are they different from the jets that we currently have which I believe are the CF-18s? Well the CF-18 is a U.S. built aircraft as well it's a 1980s technology. The F-35 relies on computers more. It's got that stealth capability. They're not as observable on radar, so the enemy forces wouldn't know that they were approaching.

And the idea is the Allied participation behind this as well. There is a real emphasis in the beginning on low cost for this plane. However, it has become one of the United States' most expensive military projects ever. Yeah, so maybe we could get into that now, get into a little bit of the background here. I know the announcement this week to spend 19 billion bucks on 88 of these planes is a big change of heart for the Liberals. And I remember when Trudeau was campaigning in 2015, he was really against buying these jets. A Liberal government will also do what the Harper Conservatives ought to have said years ago. We will not buy the F-35 fighter jet. I want to spend some time today talking to you about why that was. So take us back. This whole

idea of Canada acquiring F-35 started as a conservative project under Stephen Harper. And why were the conservatives so keen on this purchase at the time? Well, so Canada's participation in F-35 actually started under the Liberals, initially as a research program. We contributed to US research. So we spent several hundred million dollars over the years, gave that to the United States. So take this up to the conservative time. The Air Force, Canadian Air Force said, this is the aircraft we want. The Harper government said, okay, we're going to do that. Then what happened around 2011, 2012, a lot of technical problems emerged with the F-35. At the same time, you know, you had the parliamentary budget

officer saying, well, the defense department has lowballed on what they think the F-35 is going to cost. And so the parliamentary budget officer came in with an estimate that was three or four times the amount that D&D said it would cost. Then the Auditor General also did a report and pointed out that the National Defence had misled Parliament on some of its claims about the F-35. Because the Auditor General now says that cabinet ministers did know that the cost figures they gave to Canadians were false, $10 billion less than the truth. If so, that means the government misled the country for nearly two years. When you say that the parliamentary budget officer in the skating report, I remember at the time it was very controversial.

How did they say that the public was misled? Well, it was just that the Defence Department wasn't giving all the information to Parliament as they were trying to look at this purchase. The Defence Department was saying this is only going to cost $14 billion. I think the figure that the PBO came up with was something like $30 billion. So there's a lot of questions and a lot of political heat around this aircraft for Prime Minister Harper at that time. I remember that there were people, even at the time, who still argued that the F-35s were a good investment,

that they would last a long time. There was this exchange between retired Lieutenant General Steve Lucas and the CBC's Gillian Finley from back in 2012. And, you know, Lucas talks about how the controversy wasn't a reason for us to get scared and run. The promise of delivering on the best aircraft that would last for 50 years and be cheapest was still something that was in our minds. You still thought it was going to be the cheapest, even though the cost estimates were up 80%?

There has never been a defence procurement program that was not behind to one extent or another or over budget to one another. That is a feature of those kinds of programs. So was it a reason for us to get scared and run? Absolutely not. And what do you make of that argument that these were actually a good value for Canadians despite the price tag? I mean, a retired general saying that he wants a US top of the line fighter jet doesn't surprise me. General Lucas was in charge of the Air Force. And when he was during his time there, he pushed for the F-35. In fact, the Canadian Air Force in 2006, told the government that the F-35 was the only fighter jet that was needed

by Canada and it was the most cost effective in the world. At that time, only one F-35 existed. So there's no way they could have made such a claim, right? You don't know what the cost is to operate this aircraft when there's only one of them and it's in a test mode. But the Air Force has been continually pushing for this aircraft for decades. You mentioned technical issues before, and this was another reason why Trudeau said that Canada shouldn't buy these planes. Essentially, he said in 2015 that they weren't really up to snuff. And you know, he reiterated in 2016 that the Conservatives had clung to the F-35 that does not work and is far from working. And so what was he talking about? What are the technical problems that these planes have had? In those days, and when he was talking about that, there were there were concerns that the F-35 couldn't operate in the cold, there were concerns with its computer system. There were concerns with the stealth coding or the stealth capability.

And that was in 2016. However, I mean, even last year, the Pentagon's auditor general, if you will, or the U.S. government's auditor general, government accountability office, that's what they're called. They found in their latest report, and this is last year, called, they found in their latest report, and this is last year, that the F-35 still has 872 unresolved software and hardware deficiencies. Is that a lot? That's a lot. I mean, this is in many cases, a developing aircraft and is costing money. The main one of the main problems that the Americans, the Pentagon is concerned about is the high cost to operate the F-35. So currently, every time a pilot takes up the F-35 for one hour of flight is around $30,000 US. It was around $33,000 US before.

So the manufacturer Lockheed Martin is saying that it's trying to get that cost down. But that is going to be a real factor despite everything that you've walked us through, the complications, the ballooning costs, the concerns over costs, the liberals have now changed their mind. They're going to buy these jets. So why? Like, what's different now? Why the change of heart here? Well, the Liberals started a competition in 2016 for a new fighter jet, and they couldn't keep the F-35 out. And that would have been illegal to say to one competitor, you can't bid. You know, we're at this point now, they've decided to announce the winner. This morning, officials informed me that the top-ranked bidder is Lockheed Martin,

and officials will now enter into the finalization phase of the process. It's good timing in the sense, now you see the Liberal cabinet ministers using Russia's invasion of Ukraine as a reason why we should be buying these aircraft. Minister, will these F-35s help defend our country against Putin, or do you think they will come too late? Well, today is an important step in making sure that we increase our capacity on the military side. And it is important that we do so. Why? Because, as I said many times, the world changed on February 24th and it is important for Canada to make sure

that we have the right equipment for our armed forces. The Ukraine invasion becomes almost like PR cover for the liberals. How do we know that the government has estimated the cost correctly? I mean, you just talked about how the plane has still all of these technical issues and it's really expensive to operate.

So how do we know the $19 billion price tag won't just balloon three or four times like it did under the Conservatives? Yeah, well, we don't. I mean, and that is an ongoing problem with defense procurement. I mean, we've talked before about, you know, the Canadian surface combatant, which is the replacement of the Halifax class frigates with 15 new ships. Well, the cost of that has gone from $14 billion original estimate to $26 billion. Now it's D&D acknowledges it's up to $60 billion. The parliamentary budget officer says, no, it's really $77 billion. And now there's discussion around the Defense Department headquarters that the price is going up even higher. So this is an ongoing issue with defense procurements. They estimate one thing and it comes in significantly higher later.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I know that you said that the cabinet ministers, liberal cabinet ministers are using the ongoing war in Ukraine as kind of cover here

or justification. But in 2015, Trudeau said the Conservative government never actually justified or explained why they felt Canada needed a fifth generation fighter. They just talked about it like it was obvious. And so I wonder if you think the Liberals are actually offering a detailed explanation here about why we need to spend all this money on these particular planes at this time. I mean, their explanation is that we need it for NORAD. That's the North American Aerospace Defense Command. This new fleet will ensure our continued ability to protect every inch of Canadian airspace, to meet our commitments to NORAD and NATO,

and to deal with unforeseen threats. So we need it when these Russian bomber, propeller-driven bombers approach Canada, we send jets up and the United States send jets up to intercept them. And the liberals claim we need this stealth fighter for that. And they also say that we need the F-35 to support NATO. And that's where the Russian invasion of Ukraine come in. So you see all these defense analysts and generals and retired generals saying it's the new Cold War. I've seen analysts

saying there's potential for Russia to invade our Arctic. There's potential for Russia to invade the various Baltic states, which are members of NATO. If you take a look at what's actually happening, the Pentagon yesterday has now acknowledged that they misjudged and the Russian military, which they thought was this formidable organization, isn't really as formidable as they first thought. Because if you take a look at Ukraine, the Russian military is bogged down in its invasion of that country. They can't even kind of swiftly overcome a country that's next door to them. And, you know, you have supply lines that would be right there. So that raises questions about, you know, the threat. Yeah. And then let's say hypothetically, in some alternate universe, if if the threat was more real, would the F-35s

be the right tool to to to fight, you know, Russian bombers approaching our airspace? If we're using F-35s to fight Russian bombers, and the Americans have joined in and that type of thing. That means we have entered World War III. And that means eventually an exchange of nuclear weapons between the United States and Russia. So our 88 F-35s would probably last a week in that type of war. And we would all be dying of radiation poisoning. And so would our pilots. So these scenarios that some generals or retired generals paint about our F-35s fighting Russian jets, you've got to look at what the consequences are if we're at that state. That was a real downer answer, David. Sorry. But this is the reality is these generals talk about this like it's, oh, yeah, this had happened, this had happened. Well, in reality, we're talking nuclear warfare. So it doesn't really matter if we have 88 F-35s. What other interests do you see at play here? Or do you?

There was a lot of pressure from the United States government to buy a U.S.-made jet. So the one thing that is very clear is there's a lot of the U.S. economy geared towards creation of weapons. So there are plants all across the United States, particularly in Texas, where F-35 is made, where tens of thousands of American jobs rely on the F-35. And this aircraft gives the United States influence over its allies as well, because we're going to be beholding to the United States for the software upgrades on the F-35, for instance. This is a real economic driver for the U.S. economy. Last year, while this process was unfolding, the bidding process, more than 100 academics, experts, celebrities like Neil Young and David

Suzuki and Naomi Klein, they wrote a letter to Trudeau, saying that the government should just scrap this plan altogether. You know, what were what were their arguments? Why? Why do they think that we have no need for jets like these at all? Well, their argument is we should take that $19 billion and put it into different things such as healthcare, you know, housing for the homeless. There are other people that have made the arguments that we should be gearing our military more towards fighting climate change. So at home, we're going to be soon dealing with forest fires and floods once again. And there's always a military response there. So, you know, there's a growing argument that the military has to be better prepared for that as opposed to, you know, fighting a future war with Russia.

So I guess the big picture question that I'm left with here is, you know, we've watched this acquisition go through a scandal through multiple governments. We know the price tag is enormous the big picture question that I'm left with here is, is, you know, we've watched this acquisition go through a scandal through multiple governments, we know the price tag is enormous. And what does it say to you about what governments be they conservative or liberal, currently believe the role of the Canadian military is? Yeah, I think I mean, it certainly sends a signal that it's business as usual for the Canadian military. So, you know, although there is, you know, prime ministers will say we're going to cancel this, we're going to cancel that. The reality is, is the military system continues on and it makes the argument that it needs jets. And we're not, and the liberals aren't deviating

from that at all, even though, you know, despite what Trudeau said. And now the, you know, the liberals are even talking about putting in even more money into the military. So I think it's just a continuation of the status quo. Right. And is it fair to say that this looks to be a signal that this government will probably up defense spending? Well, the liberals are under pressure from NATO and from the United States to increase defense spending.

So I think you're going to see moves in that area. And F-35 is going to be something they'll hold out to the United States as an example. There's a lot of financial pressure, though, on the economy because of the pandemic. So whether they can spend billions and billions more on defense remains to be seen. David, thank you so much for this. It's always so great to chat with you. Great. Thanks for having me. Before we go today, an update on sexual misconduct allegations against Canada's former top military commander, Jonathan Vance. We've talked on this show in

particular about Major Kelly Brennan, who said she had an intimate relationship with Vance when she was his subordinate, and that he told her to lie about it. Vance previously denied any wrongdoing, but yesterday Vance pleaded guilty to a charge of obstruction of justice. He acknowledged calling Brennan to convince her not to disclose their intimate relationship to military police. Vance was granted a conditional discharge, meaning he will not have a criminal record if he follows a set of conditions, including 80 hours of community service and reporting to a probation officer for a year. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you tomorrow.