Front Burner - Church as a COVID-19 battleground

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

As three B.C. churches get ready to head to court to fight the province's COVID-19 rules, CBC Vancouver reporter Jason Proctor explains how the pandemic is testing the limits of religious freedom.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. So that is the sound of the congregation of the Chilliwack Free Reform Church last Sunday. There was singing, a sermon on the book of Daniel. Have you not signed a decree that every man who petitions any god or man within 30 days except you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions?

and prayers. We are thankful that you are the God who sits upon the throne, that you are our judge. If this was just online, as many churches across the country are doing, it would be no big deal. But the church is actually open for members to attend in person, which isn't allowed in British Columbia right now. The Chilliwack Free Reformed Church is one of three Christian churches challenging the current rules around in-person religious gatherings. And in a few weeks, they will take that fight to the BC Supreme Court. I'm Jamie Poisson, and today, how the pandemic is testing the limits of religious

freedom. My colleague Jason Proctor, a very good friend of the show, is here to talk about that, and how this fight is happening in other parts of the country too. Hi, Jason. Hi, Jamie. Thanks so much for being here. It's always such a pleasure. So three churches, including the Chilliwack Free Reform Church, are taking the BC government to court over the province's public health orders. But there are more than three that have been operating outside the rules here,

and one that's gotten a lot of attention is in Kelowna. The pastor there is Art Lussier. Can you tell me a little bit about him? He's not one of the three going to court, but I know that he's a really big player in this, right? Well, exactly. And he's one of many churches that are watching this. He runs the Harvest Church in Kelowna. And, you know, he's talked at length on Facebook posts and to his congregation. At some point, the church has to stand up against totalitarianism. They have to. And so we are. This is us coming together, the Ecclesia, the Church of Jesus, inviting God. He's been handed a number of tickets for violating the health orders which suspend religious gatherings.

And, you know, he's sort of spoken elaborately about his reasons, and it goes back to November, at a point at which our provincial health officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry, issued these orders. The community transmission that we're seeing and the fact that we have seen transmission in some of our faith-based settings, we need to suspend those and support each other

and find those ways to care for each other remotely. You know, and he said he asked God to give him a dream at that point. And in the dream, I had a dream that I stood up at a mass of people. I stood up on this like kind of podium, just like this here. I just like, pastors of Canada, it's time to open up the churches and stand together in unity over it. And so that's what's driven him. As I say, he's been handed a number of tickets. Last I saw online, he said he was still

meeting, but, you know, not announcing where these were going to happen. And how much would these tickets be? Well, each of the tickets is $2,300. And the same organization, which is representing the three churches in the challenge to BC's health orders, is also representing a number of people around the province who have defied these orders and been handed tickets. This assertion that Lucier is making that, you know, he wanted to stay open because it's God's plan. Is that something that we're hearing from other churches as well, including the three that are going to court? Yeah, it is. It's interesting, because I mean, you have a real coming together here of people's obedience

to both biblical law and the laws of man, and I guess where those conflict, right? And so specifically what the three churches here have argued is that while there is a sort of a section of Romans that tells Christians to obey civil law, because that's sort of seen as authority appointed by God on earth, even if they don't agree with everything there, where they draw the line and feel they cannot is when civil law commands them to act against God's word. And so what they've specifically argued here is that God commands them to come together, to celebrate and to honor God, and that that's something that they have to do in person

and as a congregation. And they feel that that sort of is grounds for them, biblically anyway, to defy Dr. Bonnie Henry's health orders. Just out of curiosity here, is it fair for me to say that when it comes to taking this kind of stand against public health orders in BC and getting all this attention for it as well. We are just seeing Christian churches, right? Like not mosques, gurdwaras, temples. No, exactly. What we've seen, and actually Dr. Bonnie Henry has made mention of the fact that she consulted with various faith leaders around the province in regards to this. And this is important. And they understand

that we need our faith services more than ever right now. But we need to do them in a way that's safe. You know, the vast majority of them are not defying the laws. But of course, everybody is watching this. In fact, there's a process that you can go through to ask for an exception to these rules. And she pointed out that a synagogue did that. And as a result, they're able to have religious services in tents with no more than 25 people in them. And so she's actually asked these churches to do the same thing, you know, apply for an exception, don't try to take the whole law down. And are they going to do that?

exception, don't try to take the whole law down. And are they going to do that? Well, they've done that now. And so they've asked for the exception to be able to, you know, argue that they can safely hold religious services. But there is also this ongoing challenge to the legitimacy and the constitutionality of the laws. Right. And on that challenge, in addition to the religious argument, what other kinds of arguments are we hearing from them? Well, so their main point is that the Constitution provides, under two parts of the Constitution, for sort of the freedom to gather and express yourself, and also the freedom not to be discriminated against because of religion. And so they argue

that these rules are in violation of the Constitution. The test that the government has to meet, essentially, with regards to this, because ultimately, by issuing these orders, you are infringing on people's constitutional rights. But Section 1 of the Constitution allows you to do that if you can demonstrate that it's reasonably justified, which is obviously what the province argues, that we're in a once-in-a-lifetime deadly pandemic here. And so that while there may be infringements of your constitutional rights, those are justified because of the situation. You know, I was wondering, restaurants are open in BC, right? So why is the government more concerned about churches? I can walk into a

restaurant in BC, I can sit down, I can take off my mask, I can eat dinner. Yeah, and that's actually exactly the point that the pastors here make, is that on a Sunday, they say you can go to Walmart, or you can go to Costco and see people lined up to go inside, and you may well see more people inside there. There's certainly nobody necessarily counting everybody going in, or that you can gather in restaurants. And so, you know, you can gather at the altars, let's say, of consumerism, but you can't go to church. And that's their point. What the province says to that is that the kinds of activities that are required and that people engage in in a church. So you have talking, you have singing, you have loud expression, you have people often kind of coming together, taking sacraments, those kinds

of activities. And they're there generally for sort of a longer period of time are exactly the circumstances in which COVID-19 can spread. And so that's why they say that these measures are needed. They also say in their arguments that there have been about 180 cases linked to faith-based gatherings. And so, you know, that's their case. I know that much that we've heard from these churches have been through their lawyers, but there are some recordings, right, of how the churches have spoken to their congregations about this. And I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about that. Yeah, I find this really fascinating because they certainly have gone out of their way to talk about it and to discuss it and in

one particular case the Riverside Calvary Chapel in Langley they put up a Q&A on their website where they sat down and and answered questions with regards to this. We wanted to share sort of our heart with you regarding the stance that we've taken that's not always a popular one. They talk about those specific kind of arguments that they make in terms of what they believe God is commanding them to do in terms of meeting. When Paul wrote this, he's not calling for unqualified submission to these authorities. Because, of course, if they ask you to do something that is contrary to God's word, we know that as believers, we're obligated to obey God first and foremost. But, you know, you also see expressed both there and also with regards to,

you know, Art Lussier, what would be a fundamental disagreement on, let's say, the severity of the pandemic and the need for these measures. I mean, one of them specifically sort of talks about the data. And there has been times throughout history where the church has had to suspend worship services. It's my personal conviction that when I look at the data and I look at the stats, that we are not in that health emergency place. Just the different facts about even the survival rate that we see from this virus. Huh, that's really interesting. You know, I just do want to be clear about one thing.

Are these churches taking any measures at all to stop the spread? Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean, that's part of their argument as well. I mean, they say, for instance, you know, one of the churches holding, they're holding services on Sunday mornings that are capped at 50 people, the amount that you're allowed to have at other things like a support group. You know, maintaining a reservation link on their websites to allow for people to reserve seats. They've got hand sanitizer stations set up.

Cleaning and wiping down the sanctuary between each service. Ensuring attendees are provided with clean masks. service, ensuring attendees are provided with clean masks, you know, keeping services to an hour so as to maintain, you know, a timely flow of people in and out of the buildings. They say they are doing everything that is required of them. And, you know, with regards to that example of a support group, for instance, where 49 people are allowed to gather at a support group under the existing rules, what the pastors say is that this is like a support group for people. This is sustenance for people of faith in this very, very difficult time. And they argue they can meet safely like anybody else can. What we're dealing with and the panic and the fear,

Anybody else can. What we're dealing with and the panic and the fear, the worry, the discouragement and depression that's set into many people, this is the time the church needs to be open and administered to these people. All the more, the church needs to be open. I'll see you next time. and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to,

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This injunction was in response to a legal challenge. And until that legal challenge was heard, we wanted to make sure that people understood that the rules were still in place. But it was actually turned down. And so what was the reasoning for that? Well, so this went before the Chief Justice of BC Supreme Court, Christopher Hinkson, who, even while the arguments were being made, seemed to express some kind of skepticism, because basically, he wondered whether Dr. Bonnie Henry was asking him to do her job for her,

because she has enforcement abilities under the Public Health Act. And so ultimately, what he found here is that she is not using all of those abilities, those enforcement abilities. You know, Chilliwack RCMP, for instance, have talked about sending a package to the prosecution service here for consideration of charges under the Public Health Act. Those charges can bring fines of between $25,000 and $3 million and see jail time. But as yet, no religious leaders in BC have been charged in relation to any of these defiances. And so what the justice said in regards to this was that until she's exhausted those, she shouldn't be coming to him to do that. And he felt it might actually put the court into disrepute if they went ahead and laid down the law and then the BC prosecution service declined

to charge. In his written ruling, Justice Hinkson said, to be clear, I am not condoning the petitioner's conduct in contravention of the orders that they challenge. But until he rules on the larger charter issue, these three churches will continue to welcome worshippers. So I mean, that's a big jump from $2,300 fines, right? Jail time, very, very large fines that you're talking about. Why do you think that the government and Dr. Bonnie Henry haven't pursued these? In Alberta, there's a pastor that's actually in jail right now for ignoring restrictions on religious gatherings. So it's happening elsewhere. The AHS and the RCMP have visited the church on multiple Sundays. On one occasion, they say they counted 300 people present.

We're showing the government they've overstepped their authority, regardless of whether their excuse is a so-called pandemic or not. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think some of this comes down to kind of the fundamental way about which public health officials view as the best means to get people to comply with health orders, to try to convince them to do it in their own interest, rather than because they have to, right? And Dr. Bonnie Henry has walked a very calm line with regards to this, you know, talking about asking people to be kind to each other, to look out for each other. I don't purport to know everybody's ideas about faith,

but I do know that there are great leaders in our community that are stepping up every day and supporting the people that they care about in their congregations and doing it in a safe way. There have been a couple of people charged under the Public Health Act for violating her orders, but those are extreme cases. The most recent one is a guy who ran a makeshift nightclub with strippers and you know allegedly a hundred people gathered in his downtown penthouse apartment in vancouver and you do not have a warrant it's time to leave this audio recording posted on social media by a man who identifies himself as the suite owner shows an alleged confrontation between police we continued our investigation throughout the week officers came back with a search warrant there were menus there, there were tables, there were point of sale terminals and there were cash tills throughout. You know, there were reports at the time of,

you know, orders of 100 cheeseburgers being ordered in to serve the patrons of this alleged makeshift nightclub who were all wearing socks so that they wouldn't be heard if the police showed up. So that's pretty extreme, right? But that's a very long step from people of faith. And, you know, in the decision on the injunction, the Chief Justice makes mention of this somewhat, which is these people are not going to be dissuaded necessarily by an order from the court, because these have to do with deeply felt beliefs, not, you know, a need to party. Right, right. And, you know, as you mentioned before, too, there's a lot of value in going to these services as well. You know, the human interaction, the support that people receive, it is a lot different

than the cheeseburger guy. That story is enraging. So look, we know that other provinces are struggling with this issue too, right? And who's going to be watching this court case as it moves forward? There is, in fact, an organization which represents reformed churches, reformed Christian churches across the country, about 165 churches, I think 28 of which are in BC, which is applying for intervener status in this. The organization which is behind the legal fight, the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms, they're actually also involved in the defense of James Coates, the pastor in Alberta, who you mentioned, who is in jail because he won't sign an agreement that would restrain him from gathering to hold services. So Christian churches across the country, you have to think, are watching this.

The governments will be watching it because it speaks exactly to the intersection of public health orders and constitutional rights and faith. And that is a huge issue for a lot of people. These efforts by the churches to push back to take the government to court, do you think that it might have the effect of the government backing down? You know, that's a super interesting question. I doubt it's going to have the effect of having the government back down. I mean, I think what the government said is they'll consider making exceptions, which they would for any church. But, you know, they also argue we've got variant cases rising out here in BC we're in the phase of trying to get towards vaccinating people but that isn't rolling out that quick so you know Dr Bonnie Henry would argue we're still in the danger zone these health orders are still needed and you know

from from the public's perspective as well as you saw with the case I mentioned before about the penthouse guy, there is a certain feeling that if you are defying the orders, then why don't they punish you? If they have the enforcement, if it matters to them, why don't they do that? And there's a lot of people who are isolated and restricting themselves to the limit of these rules, who equally well, you could argue, would say, hey, why can these pastors openly defy Bonnie Henry while other religious organizations don't? And they don't pay any price for that beyond tickets. And I suppose we're not even just talking about other churches or people who want to have religious gatherings, but just like regular people who are following these rules to a T.

Jason, thank you so much for this conversation. It was really fascinating. So thank you so much for wading through this really complex story with us. Oh, thank you so much for wading through this really complex story with us. Well, thank you. Before we go today, an update on a story that we've been following really closely. On Tuesday, the Chinese government responded to the House of Commons vote declaring that China is committing genocide against Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims in Xinjiang. Wang Wenbin, the spokesperson for China's foreign ministry, said that the motion disregarded facts and was meant to smear the country. That to the Chinese government, it is a lie made up by anti-China

forces. 266 MPs out of 338 voted in favor of the motion to declare China's persecution of Uyghurs a genocide on Monday. The prime minister and his cabinet abstained from that vote. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. We'll talk to you tomorrow.