Front Burner - Collecting evidence of war crimes in Ukraine

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

An enormous effort is underway to gather evidence of alleged war crimes by Russian forces in Ukraine. Investigators from the International Criminal Court, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are on the ground, collecting accounts of extrajudicial killings, forced disappearances and torture, among other abuses. Today, Belkis Wille, senior researcher at Human Rights Watch, talks about what she and her team have found so far, and why she believes it’s important that “people around the world, those in power, but also citizens of Russia, can actually read about what this war looks like and what abuses are being perpetrated.” WARNING: This episode contains graphic content and may affect those who have experienced sexual violence or know someone affected by it.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. I'm Jamie Poisson. Russian troops stormed into Borjanka, and it was just the beginning. These images show them close to Bogdanovka on the day they arrived there. Bucha, no longer known as a sleepy commuter town,

but as the site of alleged atrocities by Russia's retreating army. They started to shoot near my ears, but that was not the worst, he said. The horror started when they put the bag on my head, taped it so that I could barely breathe. Stories of Russian war crimes, rape, lootings, torture have flooded out of Ukraine in the last few months. And already Ukraine has started to prosecute those crimes. 21-year-old Sergeant Vadim Shishimarin has pleaded guilty to shooting dead a Ukrainian man as he pushed his bicycle along a road. The soldier seemed nervous and said little, until the words that mattered. Asked whether he admitted his guilt, Vadim Shishimarin told the judge, yes, completely. Getting a sense of the full scale of what has happened during this war could take years.

But along with Ukrainian prosecutors, investigators from the International Criminal Court, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are also gathering evidence. and Human Rights Watch are also gathering evidence. Belkis Ville is a senior researcher at Human Rights Watch, and she's on the ground in Ukraine today to talk about what her team is finding so far. And a warning here, there are some very difficult details in this episode, including descriptions of sexual violence. So please take care. Hi, Belkis. Thank you so much for taking the time to come onto the podcast. I know you're extremely busy right now. Thank you so much for having me.

So you're in Ukraine right now investigating war crimes. And where have you been and who have you been talking to? So I entered the country on the fourth day of the Russian invasion. And then I've now come in three different times. This is my third trip. And I stayed each time for about three weeks and then taken a short breakout. On this trip, I've been in the east of the country. Over the last week, I was in the city of Kharkiv, which is unfortunately under very heavy shelling again now. And I've been looking at a range of different abuses, both abuses in towns and villages around the city that were under Russian occupation for two or more months.

Things like extraditional killings, enforced disappearances, torture and cases like that. attacks, both ground fired and aerial bombardments of towns and villages where Ukrainian forces were present and the city of Kharkiv, which, as I said, unfortunately, still now is coming under shelling. I'm hoping that we can get into some of the specific war crimes that you mentioned here a little bit more, starting with those forced disappearances. tier a little bit more, starting with those forced disappearances? We've spent time in towns and villages that were under Russian occupation. In the cases of regions around Kiev, the capital, and Chernihiv, those were areas that were under occupation for about a month before Russian forces pulled out. And then in Kharkiv region, these are areas that were under occupation for much longer. And during that time, Russian forces were in control of, you know, populations living in these areas.

And where Russian forces came in and suspected, for example, that someone was former or current military or that they were feeding information to Ukrainian forces about Russian troop movements. We've unfortunately documented these instances where the Russian army has picked that person up, has held them, has tortured them, and then in some cases has executed them or has disappeared them. And disappeared essentially means that now their family has no idea what happened to them. They know that they were in Russian custody, but then the traces of them have disappeared and Russian forces pulled out of the area. So, you know, maybe the body is there somewhere to be found and they were executed, or maybe they were taken to other territories and maybe back to Russia. You know, I interviewed a woman yesterday whose sister was taken from their family home.

She was in a small village that was under Russian control. And she had indeed been sending photos and information to the Ukrainian forces about Russian troop movements. And the Russian forces in the area found that out. They took her from her home. And only two days before they then pulled out of that area, they actually took her with them. And the family has now been informed by other people who were in detention in Russia subsequently and then were released that she was in prison with them in Russia. And they said that she is going to be prosecuted in Russia for the information that

she was sharing. You mentioned torture. What are you finding? How are people being treated? So the mistreatment of people in these areas while they were under occupation is really targeted at people that the Russian forces think are enemies to them, are sharing information with the Ukrainian government, with the Ukrainian forces. So we documented numerous cases where Russian forces would come and detain someone from their home and then held and tortured them. And the people we've interviewed, we were able to interview because they eventually were released and they were released because at some point Russian forces were pushed out of that area. And so they left their detainees behind as they pulled out. You know, I interviewed one man who had been trying to organize

sort of a local resistance group to fight against the Russians within the community that he was in because the area was occupied and Russian forces found out and they took him. They held him. They beat him. They threatened that they would throw a grenade into his basement when his son was in the basement. And then they cable tied him and hung him from the ceiling so that he was in a lot of pain.

If he put his feet down, if he was on tiptoes, his arms weren't stretched as much. But we're talking about incidents like that. And again, the people we've been able to interview are the ones who then eventually got released because Russian forces left those areas. But I would say I'm extremely concerned about those who are in areas still under occupation. And I've interviewed many people who fled areas that are currently occupied, who've also shared with me stories of friends of theirs, relatives who they know were detained by the Russians, and they have no idea what's what's happening to them. And of course, you said some people are just being executed. Yes, we've documented cases, both of Russian forces, you know, when they first take control of a town or village, they come in and they just open fire from their armored vehicles and may kill civilians who are

standing on the streets or in the wrong place at the wrong time. But then we've also documented instances that are more targeted. So again, after they're in control of the area for a time, they get a sense that there is a family or an individual that they think is helping the Ukrainians and they'll go to their home. They'll take them and they'll execute them. I interviewed a mother in a small village outside of Kiev that was under occupation for the month of March. And they came to her home because she had kept her cell phone. When they arrived, Russian forces had taken everybody's cell phones and she had hidden hers. And they eventually, when they came to the home, they said that they had some kind of device in a vehicle outside that could tell if a cell phone signal was still working. So they stormed the house, they searched

it and they took her son. And she then had no idea for days what had happened to him. And when they left the city, the village, she immediately, the first thing she did was she ran down the street to try and find him because it had been days and days that she'd been asking the Russian forces what they had done to her son. And she came to this barn of a farm near her house and saw his sneakers sticking outside the door of the barn. And that's when she found him dead in a fetal position with a bullet wound in the head. I know this is probably impossible to answer with any real certainty because there's still parts of the country under occupation and there's heavy fighting. But can you give me a scope of this, the prevalence of this? It's not as if we see the Russian forces coming into areas and detaining every single man and torturing or executing every single man.

That's absolutely not what's happening here. It's much more targeted than that. But in areas that do come under Russian control, I think the choice of the Russian army to treat that person as someone not only that they view as dangerous, but someone that they're willing to execute, that unfortunately, I think seems to be common enough based on what we've been seeing in all these different areas. I understand Human Rights Watch has also seen images that you think could implicate Ukrainian soldiers in the torture of prisoners of war. And I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about that and how the Ukrainian government has responded. So, you know, prisoners of war are people with a very specific protected status

under international humanitarian law. So these are people who belong to one of the warring parties, soldiers or other people who have decided to take up arms and take part in the hostilities. And once they get captured by the other side, they are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect. They can be detained, but they can't be tortured. They can't be executed. You know, we have concerns about Russian abuses against people captured in this way. But but equally, and I think what really flagged our concern was a range of photos and videos that started getting posted online, photos and videos that started getting posted online, including by Ukrainian armed forces themselves, showing them in what appears to be instances of them capturing Russian soldiers and then torturing and or executing them. Now, that is a very serious violation. That is a war crime.

We have contacted the Ukrainian chief prosecutor's office asking what they are doing to investigate these incidents because they have a legal obligation to investigate those incidents. And they've told us that they are investigating, but we haven't yet heard about the results of these investigations. So it's, I think, too soon to know how seriously they are addressing these allegations. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing.

In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I know that you're also looking at Ukrainian civilians being sent to Russian filtration camps. And what are these filtration camps? filtration camps? And what are these filtration camps? So in some areas that Russia has occupied, mainly this is the city of Mariupol, which fell under Russian siege and heavy bombardment. They've constructed a sort of security screening process where those civilians that flee, most of them on foot, are reliant on essentially free buses to be able to evacuate them from where the fighting is to an area that's safe.

And the Russians and local authorities from the Donetsk People's Republic, which separated from Ukraine in 2014 with the support of Russia, these officials have basically organized buses that take people who are escaping the city on foot to camps at which they force these people to give over vast amounts of their personal data, things like their names, their, you know, their professions, what their families do, but also, you know, how they feel about the Ukrainian military, how they feel about the Russian government, how they feel about the Ukrainian government. They're also capturing people's biometrics. So their fingerprints, their palm

prints, their photographs, and they are spending extensive amounts of time looking at people's cell phones and potentially also copying data from their cell phones. And once someone undergoes this process, if the officers that are doing this think that this person doesn't represent a threat to Russia, then they're given a receipt, a piece of paper that says they've undergone filtration. And after that point, you know, if they have a little bit of money, they might be able to get a taxi, you know, a shared taxi if they can't afford anything else that can take them then to Ukrainian-controlled territory. But for those that have no means, again, buses are provided,

but they're only going in one direction, and those buses take them to Russia. And I understand, like, they're being shipped thousands of miles away to parts of Russia that are economically struggling, right? So we've interviewed some people who went to Russia, but they all did not want to remain in Russia. And so they then left to Europe very quickly after they crossed the border into Russia. So they're now in places like Belgium, Germany, Norway, Georgia.

And so that's why we were able to speak to them on the phone. The people who have remained in Russia across the board are too scared to speak to us. So it's very hard to know once people are inside Russia, if they remain there, what their life looks like and where they're sent. I've spoken to people who have friends and family who were sent to Russia who have told me about different locations that they ended up in across different parts of the country.

The collection of biometrics and this filtration process, is that considered a war crime? So under international humanitarian law, the forcible transfer of a population by an occupying power is a war crime. So in instances where the person who was forced onto that bus and forced into Russia had no other choice, that could constitute a war crime. And when we're talking about mass collection of data, you know, this is a fairly new field when it comes to international human rights law, data protection more generally, but under international human rights law, everyone has the right to privacy. And based on that right, governments are only allowed to collect data

where it's lawful, proportionate, and necessary. And I think there is a real question about the lawfulness of this kind of data collection when it's essentially the Russian state collecting data on Ukrainian nationals inside of Ukraine, so not even inside Russia. Of course, we have heard very disturbing stories about sexual violence happening in Ukraine. And I know you heard from a young woman who told you her story. And I wonder if you could tell me what she had to say to you. Absolutely. I'll preface by saying that, you know, I've spent now many weeks in the country since the Russian invasion, and I've been to dozens of towns and villages, I would say I've only come across a few incidents

of rape. Each of these incidents does constitute a war crime very clearly. What we don't have evidence of is rape being used by Russian forces as a weapon of war, as we've seen in some other conflicts in history. But the case of this young woman is particularly horrific. She's a 16-year-old. She was six months pregnant at the time that a Russian soldier took her from the house that she was in with her mother and with some other teenage girls. And he raped her. He then took her from that house to another building where he and other armed forces were. He tried to rape her again. She was able to escape, in fact, with the

help of some other Russian soldiers who intervened. She then eventually was brought to a commander who said that she was allowed to file a complaint against him. And as she started to talk about what happened to her, he turned to her and he said, I want you to do the same with me. And he took her to a room and acted as if he was about to rape her again. And she, at that point, lost all of her ability to stay composed and completely broke down. And then at that point he said to her oh no no i was just testing you uh to see if he would actually rape you or if you had actually wanted to have sex with him i was testing you uh but now i'm convinced that your story is correct and then he hugged her as she was undressed um in the room and then uh and then eventually let her leave. But her, her story, her ordeal really

stays with me as, as, as perhaps the most horrific account that I've heard since I've been here. You mentioned before that you're also looking at tactics of war. And I know that Human Rights Watch is looking at the use of cluster bombs and other weapons that kill civilians. And can you tell me about that? So since the beginning of this conflict, really the first day of this conflict, we have seen fundamentally indiscriminate weapons being used in civilian populated areas. These are weapons that when they are fired into an area where civilians live, even if they're trying to hit a military target, they will most likely also injure or kill civilians. And that is particularly true when it comes to clustered munitions. So these are weapon systems where a carrier will be sent into an area towards a target. And then these tiny bomblets, these submunitions will spread over a massive radius and some will detonate on impact.

And they don't discriminate between a soldier and a civilian, but some will actually land without detonating. They fail to detonate and then they sit there in the soil. So if some child who's playing in the area sees something shiny and picks it up, it explodes and they can die or be injured. And so, you know, globally, explodes and they can die or be injured. And so, you know, globally, most countries have tried to sign a convention banning the use of cluster munitions, but some countries have not. And Russia has not signed that convention. And yet we are seeing Russian forces in numerous instances carrying out these cluster strikes on towns and cities. And is it fair to say that this is one of the reasons why civilians are being forced into really terrible, suffocating conditions where for days or weeks on end, they remain

in like basements? Absolutely. I mean, in so many cities and towns that have come under attack, the only way for civilians to survive and to stay safe is to go into the basement. And that means you've got dozens of people in tiny basements staying there for days or weeks because they know that if they go outside,

if they go upstairs, then they're at risk of death. And given the amount of destruction that I've seen to homes in all of the areas that I visited, it is absolutely clear that the only safe place in most of these areas is your basement. Belkis, as you gather evidence of all of these war crimes, what is going to happen with this evidence? What will come of all of this? Or what do you think will come of all of this? So in the context of the conflict in Ukraine, you've got numerous efforts ongoing to ensure accountability. And accountability in some ways really is about a criminal trial. The person who was in command

control of an attack, the individual soldier who carried that attack out, if it was unlawful, being held to account in a courtroom. And so you've got the International Criminal Court that's conducting investigations. You've got numerous prosecutorial teams from around the world, at least 13 countries that are conducting investigations into potential war crimes. And some of our reporting and our research may help these teams to decide what kind of abuses and what geographical areas they focus on. But our aim as Human Rights Watch is broader than that. I mean, when we document these incidents, we document them for the public. We publish all of our findings online. We publish all of our evidence online. We don't hide any of it or save any of it for

private parties. And the aim is to ensure, among other things, that there is an accurate historical narrative that's being built about this conflict and about the abuses being committed. And that people around the world, those in power, but also, you know, citizens of Russia can actually read about what this war looks like and what abuses are being perpetrated. coming on to this show and telling us about the incredibly important work that you do, which I'm sure is unbelievably taxing on you. So thank you so much for this. Thank you for having me. So before we go today, some details from the latest scathing report on sexual misconduct in Canada's military. Yesterday, former Supreme Court Justice Louise Arbour released an over 400-page document saying the military has failed to make the changes necessary to keep women safe.

Saying, quote, to keep women safe, saying, quote, some of its members are more at risk of harm on a day-to-day basis from their comrades than from the enemy. This is the second report into sexual misconduct in the Canadian military in just seven years, and a number of our board's recommendations are similar to previous ones. Therefore, I see no basis for the Canadian Armed Forces

to retain any jurisdiction over sexual offences, and that jurisdiction should be vested exclusively with civilian authorities. Arbour criticized the military for being unwilling or unable to substantially implement past recommendations, saying it needs to accept a paradigm shift. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.