Front Burner - Consent, false accusation fear and #MeToo

Episode Date: October 14, 2019

Journalist Robyn Doolittle has a new book out called ‘Had it coming.’ It’s been two years since the first stories alleging sexual abuse by Harvey Weinstein were published, sparking an unprecedented conversation about sexual assault. Now, what’s fair in the age of #MeToo? It’s a question Doolittle tackles in the book.’ Today on Front Burner, she talks about the #MeToo movement, what came before it, and why she thinks we need to talk about consent as a moral and ethical issue, not just a legal one.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Two years ago now, the New York Times published an investigative report accusing movie executive Harvey Weinstein of sexual misconduct. The piece set off a chain reaction and started a huge cultural movement. It's a tweet out of Hollywood that

sparked the Me Too movement. In the wake of even more fallout from the Harvey Weinstein allegations, actor Alyssa Milano tweeted this note. Now that we've had two years since the beginning of Me Too, we can take stock. What's changed in our culture, what hasn't? Robin Doolittle, journalist and former colleague of mine, has written a whole book about this called Had It Coming. It dives into the really thorny territory around sexual misconduct. She joins me now. This is Frontburner. Robin Doolittle, hi. Hi.

Thanks for coming by the podcast. It's my pleasure. So you start this book with a chapter on Kobe Bryant, who was accused of rape in 2003. And I know that you struggled with writing this chapter. How come? I mean, when I was trying to think of how do you write a book on Me Too, trying to sort out what issues to talk about, what conversations I wanted to spark, what the point of it was, like, where do you begin? And ultimately, what I realized was I was going to

spend a lot of the time in this book asking people to think about rape myths and stereotypes. These are the outdated ideas that all of us harbor around women and how women should act and power dynamics and sex and what real victims do. And I thought that if I was going to ask my reader to look inside themselves and think about their own misconceptions, I should start with mine. So that's where I landed on Kobe Bryant. This is the famous basketball player who was in 2003, I believe, accused of raping a 19-year-old in a hotel room. And when I was 18, when I heard about that case, my first instinct was to doubt her story.

I thought, well, what did she expect going to a hotel room with an NBA player at night? And why is it that that was my first reaction? You weren't alone here. There was all of this coverage of this alleged rape. The case the whole country is watching. New details and new questions about the accuser of NBA star Kobe Bryant. I saw a stretcher outside her room. All I saw after that was them carting somebody off.

Did she have a troubled past? Here's one headline from the L.A. Times. Alleged victim in Bryant case is a 19-year-old graduate of local high school who is said to be fun-loving, outgoing, and emotional. Yeah, it's like a little dog whistle. Oh, this is a party girl. This girl, you know, can't be trusted. She is looking for a good time. She had it coming.

It's basically what that's saying. And, you know, I was reading about this case, like like in preparation for this conversation, and the allegations are really disturbing. You know, a bruise on her neck, vaginal tearing, the account that she tried to get out of the hotel room and he blocked her path, and that he raped her while she was weeping. This girl, I mean, she was 19, but she's young here and he's, you know, a famous basketball player. She did all of the things that we want, quote unquote, real victims to do. She told someone right away there was physical evidence. There was blood on Kobe Bryant's shirt. She appeared upset in recounting the events.

There were, again, like, as you mentioned, there was vaginal trauma. The sexual assault nurses found. And yet it was still met with so much skepticism. It wasn't just the media coverage and people's gut reaction to it. The court staff that were handling that case emailed journalists confidential information about this woman's sexual history by accident. The cavalier attitude that they had toward a sexual assault complainant, the sympathetic media, my gut reaction as a teenager to doubt this woman, this is what we would call rape culture. And that's what I really wanted to introduce readers to. And look, we're talking about the Me Too movement today,

which exploded in 2017 after the Harvey Weinstein allegations in The New York Times. But this is something you also get into in your book. The idea that the groundwork had really been laid for many years prior, you know, after the Kobe Bryant allegations. I think it's so important to reinforce that because there is, I think, some frustration with the movement right now. It feels like it's stalled. You know, things aren't fixed. But I try to make the point that the march to Me Too was long. Jian Gomeshi, the first signs of this cultural reckoning, in Canada at least, happened in 2014, years before Me Too.

After days of chatter that charges were imminent, Gomeshi turned himself in at this police station early this morning to be fingerprinted and have his photo taken. This is where he was charged with four counts of sexual assault and one count of overcoming resistance by choking. So in the way that the path to this point has been long, the path forward is going to be difficult as well. I know you've done quite a bit of reporting on how police deal with sexual assault. And this was before me too, as well. Yeah, this was my kind of initiation into this world of reporting. And it was inspired because of the Gian Gomeshi case, actually, that I was looking for an investigation, what I wanted to do.

I work at the Global Mail, obviously, on the investigative team. And in 2015, everyone was discussing the justice system and whether, you know, sexual assault complainants can get a fair shake. And I was like, I wonder if that's true. Like, it seems like women can't. That's certainly what I think we feel is true. But is it true? And I collected statistics from more than 870 police jurisdictions and showed that no, sexual assault complaints were being disproportionately dismissed compared to other cases. And why was that? I think it's because of these biases that Yeah, and I think definitely what I was finding in looking at these cases is the clear-cut ones, sure. Police, you know, if it was a very clear, if it fit the stereotype of what, you know, we see as a rape on television,

a virtuous woman walking down the street and getting dragged into the bushes. Most sexual assaults aren't like that. It's often between people who know each other. It's often under murky situations. And when it was in these gray areas, that's where I found police were really quick to dismiss these cases as unfounded or baseless or false. So you dig into these kinds of gray areas in your book, cases where a man did something we might consider awful, gross, cruel even, but maybe not what we picture when we're thinking about criminal sexual assault.

So I'm thinking Aziz Ansari. I'm thinking Al Franken. I think this is something that a lot of women in their own lives have experienced, this gray area and sexual encounters, encounters that made them feel uncomfortable and that maybe they didn't totally say yes to. This has been a point of conversation for a lot of people ever since the Me Too movement. And for you, how much does a fundamental misunderstanding of consent factor into these situations? It's all about consent. I spend most of the book kind of hitting on this point over and over again.

This gray area that you live in. You brought up Aziz Ansari. I mean, Aziz Ansari is one of the things that inspired me to write this book. When I heard about, you know, this is the famous comedian, he's famous for being woke and an ally to women. I'm a feminist as well.

Any feminists here clapping? Any people here? And when that story ran, it was on Babe.net, I went on a date with Aziz Ansari. It was the worst night of my life. It was this woman recounting. I went on a date with Aziz Ansari. It was the worst night of my life. It was this woman recounting a night with the comedian where after dinner, they're back at his place. And he essentially kind of badgers her over and over again for various sexual activities.

And she goes along with it, but she doesn't want to, but she doesn't say anything. She gives them kind of nonverbal cues, she says. She's like, oh, can we chill? And he says, sure. And then they go sit on the couch. And then a little while later, he kind of, you know, tries again and she goes along with it, but she doesn't feel good about it. And I think that that situation is one that so many women can relate to that feeling of, why did I go along with it? I don't feel good about that. She characterized it as a sexual assault. I would say that's a real stretch, but that doesn't mean it's not really worth talking about. If we take it out of the legal realm, it puts it where Me Too really needs to be, which is this moral and ethical question.

And when you think about consent from a moral and ethical perspective, that's where we really need to be talking. And it's really complicated. What do you think people need to be talking about when we're talking about consent? So for example, when you think about consent, what immediately comes to mind? No, yes. No means no. It's yes means yes. Listen to your partner. Most people don't have sex that way. Most people negotiate sexual activity through body language. Someone moves a little closer, another person responds, maybe you kiss, maybe a hand goes up, etc. another person responds, maybe you kiss, maybe a hand goes up, etc. But we don't prime people to figure out how to read your other person or read your partner's desire based on body language. People are really bad at reading body language. I, you know, I interview academics who study this

and, and scientists who look at how the brain works. And unfortunately, what we know is that men, there has been studies that show, are more likely to read a situation as sexual than a woman, that people are not good at reading other people's body language. And there's been studies that have shown that one of the main ways that people communicate that they're into having sexual activity is by being totally passive, by doing nothing, by allowing their clothes to come off. Of course, this is going to set us up for a perfect

storm where people might come away from a situation with different, they might recount the details exactly the same, but a man might come away feeling that that was consensual and a woman might come away feeling that she'd been sexually assaulted. Right. Two completely different interpretations of the same situation. How do you think we teach people to read those situations? I mean, it's got to start, I think, with what the academics say with better sex ed training, where we actually talk to, you know, kids beginning like when they're young, because I not saying you know six years old like don't email me people don't i'm talking about obviously by the time though that you're you know in the middle you know grade five six seven like you need to start thinking about consent in the context of

relationships um and it's talking about how to make sure that your partner is a willing participant um not just waiting for those verbal cues. Also understanding how we are socialized, the the instructor, Farah Khan, frames consent from the position of pleasure, not just like don't get arrested. So it's about making sure your partner is having fun. It achieves the same thing, which is consent, but it frames it in a much more accessible way. Do you worry, though, that having these more nuanced conversations around consent might make things more complicated for some people might make it more difficult for people to read a situation. There's nothing unambiguous about yes and no. Yeah, I mean, sure, in a perfect world, we would all say yes or no, but I think it's unrealistic. I think it's uncomfortable because

it likes so many conversations with me too. There's a temptation to hear me say something like, look, consent is really complicated and it's difficult and it opens a door for misinterpretation. And someone might hear that as going, you're providing an excuse for a perpetrator. So I don't want to have that conversation. And I don't think that that's helpful. I understand where that position comes from, but I don't think it gets us to where we want to be. I think we need to be open to discussing

the fact that yeah, men might be misinterpreting things. They also might be taking advantage of the power dynamics. But we need to get in there. I keep coming back to this question of false accusations, which I hear over and over again as I'm talking about this book. Right. And it just makes me think about this fear that men have about false accusations, despite the fact that the statistics show that only two to eight percent of sexual assault allegations are false. I think it comes back to a confusion around consent again, that a guy can come away from a situation feeling like that was fine, and a woman might come away feeling genuinely sexually assaulted. And I have to say, I've also done some reporting on sexual assault, and these seem to be far more common, right? It's not that it's

a false accusation, it's that there are two people with completely different interpretations of what happened. And your reporting was obviously looking at university students and campuses. And, I mean, we know so many of those cases involve alcohol, which then just throws gas on this dumpster fire of a problem that we've got. What is the threshold for a man to be welcomed back into society, to be forgiven? You know, Aziz Ansari has a comedy special right now. He seems to be welcomed back into society, to be forgiven. You know what, Aziz Ansari has a comedy special right now. He seems to be doing okay. Louis C.K., who is admitted to masturbating in front of women who were in his business.

Who he had power over. Who he had power over. He just got a standing ovation in Toronto. Comedian Louis C.K. took to the stage at Yuck Yucks in Toronto last night. It was the first of five shows at that venue. in Toronto. Comedian Louis C.K. took to the stage at Yuck Yucks in Toronto last night. It was the first of five shows at that venue. It's part of a comeback tour

following allegations of sexual misconduct two years ago. We talked about Gian Gomeschi before. He wrote a piece for the New York Review of Books

and that, by all accounts, went horribly for him. People were not willing to welcome him back. And so why? Yeah. And what do we do with these guys? The redemption question, the other kind of third rail issue with really doing them today. Yeah, we're getting into the muck. But that's good. That's where we need to go. People need to, you know, be willing to get in here and stop looking at the low hanging fruit. After Gomeshi

wrote his his essay, I, I did something that, you know, kind of crazy, I, I put out an earnest call to Twitter and was like, Oh, no, what happened? I know it's an earnest question for Twitter. Is there anything he could do to redeem himself? That to make it right right in your eyes or give him a second chance. And surprisingly, I got a lot of really great responses. People said, you know, they wanted an honest apology. They wanted someone, not just speaking specifically to Gomeshi, but in general, this question of redemption. They want to hear an honest apology. They want to hear a sincere effort to self-reflect and to make amends. Speaking directly to someone who's harmed is really important as opposed to kind of indirectly through another medium. I think with Gomeshi,

the feeling was that he didn't address any of the allegations outside of the ones that were in court in any real way. Right, because outside of the ones that were in court. Right. In any real way. Somewhere around 20 allegations. Right. And that it didn't come across as sincere. It seemed much more like an attempt to try to regain his status than make an actual amends for his actions. Now, I mean, there's tricky things with all of this. You know, Jian Ghomeshi was found not guilty in a court of law.

In the court of public opinion, I think he's very much still viewed as guilty in the most severe way. But like everything, this is on a continuum. So maybe Jian Ghomeshi, with his many, many accusations against him, is on one side. But is there room for other people? Is there room for an Aziz Ansari to be redeemed? Or a Louis C.K. Or a Louis C.K. And Louis C.K. is, you know, maybe closer to a Gomeshi than an Aziz Ansari. And I think that so far things have been shaking out, like, okay, right? Like, Aziz is not canceled forever. I think he's getting another season of his show, I suspect. Louis C.K. obviously is still is back out there. Yeah. I think he's getting another season of his show, I suspect.

Louis C.K., obviously, is still is back out there. Like the court of public opinion is doing OK on this front. You know, knowing that this has been so difficult for many women, do you think we focus too much on the men, on what this has been like for men? I mean, you see that that complaint over and over again. Every time the questions around due process or redemption come up, it's always, why do we have to hear about the men? I completely understand that feeling. It is enraging. It's women who have been systemically discriminated against, who have been violated for centuries, millennia going back. And it's why is it when we're finally having this moment, we're talking about the men.

I understand the feeling. I also, I guess, say like, well, it's the men that are doing the harm most of the time we know from statistics. And how are we going to bring change their minds? And I think we need to change their minds. We need to bring them on board and to bring them on board, we need to hear their concerns. And what I know are their concerns are this question of false accusations and the question of, well, so if I did something, you know,

if I had a stupid decision, you know, years ago, does that mean I'm canceled forever? Those are their concerns. And we need to hear them as irritating as they might be in this moment. I think no one ever changed their mind by getting screamed at and dismissed and belittled and yelled at. And even if some of them deserve it, the vast majority of men, I think, want to be good people and are good people. It's just, you know, in the way that we socialize women to be one thing, men have been socialized to be something else. And we need to talk about men.

We can't ignore them in this conversation. I want to ask you something about something I struggle with when it comes to the Me Too movement. We spend a lot of time talking about these men, what to do with them, the redemption question, has it gone too far? But I also want to acknowledge that for many women, this has not been easy. Ashley Judd is thought of as a hero for coming out against Harvey Weinstein. But, you know, the Cut website just ran a long piece about a woman named Christy Vann who complained of harassment at the Ford Motor Company was then removed from work. She's since been homeless,

separated from her son. She says, why would I tell someone to go up against a billionaire company like this and destroyed their life? Mayoshi Morris said her supervisor at GM pressured her into sex in exchange for a convenient schedule that accommodated her child care. She says she lost her job after she wouldn't have sex with him anymore. Who is this movement for? You know, has Me Too most had an impact for middle and upper class women? has Me Too most had an impact for middle and upper class women? I mean, I think the question of who is it for and who's been most impacted by it are different.

It's for, I think, all women, but also anyone, man or woman, and children who have been victims of sexual harassment or sexual violence. Who's been the primary beneficiary? There's no question that this is, you know, primarily white women who are making substantial amounts of money. The most vulnerable women, women, you know, women of color, marginalized people working in precarious work, these are the people most likely to be victimized,

but they also have the least amount of power to kind of fight back. It's a huge stain, I think, on the media that there hasn't been more reporting on this. I say that as someone who's done this reporting, who, you know, I look back, I wish I had done more in that area. It is, you know, with my unfounded reporting I did for The Globe, it's hard to make those connections. I think sometimes because people have very real fears in that area. It is, you know, with my unfounded reporting I did for the Globe, it's hard to make those connections, I think, sometimes because people have very real fears about the economic consequences of speaking out, even if they're going to be anonymous. So, yes, that is, we can't take our eye off the ball here. All right. On that note, Robin Doolittle, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner and see you tomorrow.