Front Burner - Controversial Michelin Guide comes to Canada

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Right now, undercover inspectors from France’s prestigious Michelin Guide are visiting Canada for the first time, to decide if any of Toronto’s restaurants are worthy of a coveted Michelin Star. Getting that designation from the de facto gastronomical authority can propel a chef and their restaurant to stardom. But the Michelin Guide has also been plagued with allegations of bias, elitism, putting dangerous levels of strain on chefs, and ignoring how the workers making the food are treated. Today, food writers Nancy Matsumoto and Corey Mintz join us to hash out what the guide’s arrival in Canada could mean for a beleaguered industry — and whether it even matters.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey, I'm Jamie Pussum. Toronto is no doubt one of the top tourism destinations in North America, and its gastronomic experience deserves to be known widely. deserve to be known widely. Today, I have the great pleasure to announce the Michelin Guide's arrival in Toronto.

The prestigious Michelin Guide is coming to Canada. Over the next few months, undercover inspectors from the French company will be visiting restaurants across Toronto to judge if they're worthy of a coveted Michelin star. Getting that kind of recognition from the de facto gastronomical authority can put a chef and their restaurant on the road to international stardom. But the 100-year-old guide is not without controversy. Michelin has faced allegations of bias, snobbery, putting dangerous levels of strain on chefs, and ignoring how the workers making the food are treated.

Corey Mintz and Nancy Matsumoto are both food writers who've been covering Michelin's ups and downs for decades. And they're here with me now to hash out what the food guide's arrival in Canada could mean, and if it even matters. Hi, Corey and Nancy. Thank you both for being here. It's great to have you. Hi, Jamie. Hey, Nancy. Hi, great to be here. So, Nancy, I wonder if we could start with you today. And I think the question I have is, what does it mean to a restaurant to receive a Michelin star these days? I think it's still a huge, huge deal. Michelin is an international brand and it's read by people all over the world. The Michelin Guide started more than a century ago as a way to promote driving and sell tires. Now its one to three star rating system instantly gives restaurants international stardom. One star means a very good restaurant that's worth a stop. Two stars mean

excellent cooking that's worth a detour. And three stars, exceptional cuisine, worth a special journey. So for a lot of restaurants, it means that they're going to start getting international visitors where they might have only been known in their city or in their province or state. So it's a huge spotlight. And, you know, depending on how many stars you get, there's also a lot of pressure that it brings with it. So I think it's kind of a double-edged sword. It could be great. I think it depends on the type of restaurant. Some people don't want it and have actually declined the stars because they just don't want to be under that microscope and have that pressure to keep it up. Others, I think,

revel in it and are very proud of it and work hard to keep it up. So I think it's a really very personal thing when you're a chef, if you want to go for that and be in that competition. Yeah, I want to get into the pressure with you guys more in a little bit. But first, you know, it's been around for 100 years. There are guides in Europe, North America, Asia. Why do you think it's taken this long for it to come to Canada, Corey? I mean, why does anything take so long to come in Canada? Fair, yeah.

I remember talking about in sort of around 2007 or something, when is Toronto going to get a ramen shop? And my Japanese landlord was saying, oh, Canadians will never get ramen. Now you have so much ramen. It's everywhere, right? Toronto has always been on this sort of, well, if it's hot in New York now, then wait five years

and it'll be there, you know? We're lucky we get Fast and Furious movies the same year they're released in the States. Aw. We're lucky we get Fast and Furious movies the same year they're released in the States. Aww. But I know that you're really tapped into the Toronto food scene. Like, what are people saying? Are they excited about this? Are they jazzed about it?

The mayor hopes it will give the city's culinary scene a post-pandemic boost. We have 7,500 restaurants in Toronto. And I think that the recognition coming from the Michelin Guide is going to lift up all of those restaurants. I ask in part because I saw a tweet from Jen Egg, who's a pretty well-known restaurateur here. She basically said she doesn't care. She doesn't care.

Yeah, there's sort of, there's all mixed reactions. And I got a lot of messages, some interesting ones, including one, as Nancy mentioned, from a chef I know who said he worked at a place in England that attempted to refuse their star because it did inevitably attract all the kind of tourists that weren't their kind of regular customers that didn't order or behave like regular customers and they didn't need or want those. And basically there's two types of restaurants for the most parts that get Michelin stars. And they're the sort of, you know, and Jen is a very smart, canny restaurateur and she falls into the first group, which is really good restaurants that get singled out and may or may not want that because they are neighborhood restaurants. They want to locals, they want to be good and consistent. And then there's the mostly the award-seeking high-end restaurants that have always been about pursuing that kind of recognition, whether it's your city's list of top tens, which, you know, it's their year-end goal to be on that list or international

recognition. Maybe take me through a little bit like exactly how the process works. I mean, that's, that's part of, that's one of the criticism. You know, I was, I was a critic, a restaurant critic many years ago. And my goal during that time was always to be as objective as possible about a process, deciding a restaurant's worth that is inherently subjective, right? Don't fool anyone. The Michelin guide likes to call their people inspectors, which to me sounds like a way to make the process, which has no oversight and no transparency, sound scientifically objective when we don't know how they determine. The one thing I know,

and I'm sure we'll get into this, is they do not consider labor part of their adjudication. Let's talk about that a little bit more. Nancy, do you want to jump in there? Why don't they consider labor part of their adjudication and why does it matter? I think labor has become more and more important to people, especially because of the pandemic. It has really shown a light on the terrible labor practices of so many restaurants because so many people were out of jobs. There was just so much mental illness, unemployment, people having to leave Toronto because they could no longer afford it. But it was even happening before that. It's just all about equity.

Why is the chef and the star, they're getting so much attention and they're really not paying. If you're in a three-star restaurant, you can really get stagiaire who are vying for a spot in your kitchen just to rotate through for no pay. There are so many people who have Noma on their resume, for example. But it's one of these supply and demand issues. I mean, if you're a really hungry young chef who has no resume or pedigree yet, and you have this kind of fine dining goal in mind, people want to go there. I think Michelin, it's very old school. It's very much about the service, about the quality of the food, about the creativeness, about the inventiveness of the chef.

And, you know, they haven't, they've kind of kept that whole aspect of restaurants in the dark. Corey, I know you spoke with a chef about this, Ferran Adria. He used to run El Bulli, this really famous restaurant in Spain, right? With three Michelin stars. And what did he tell you? Well, when I got to interview Adria, this was back when I was a restaurant critic, but I was just still fresh. It was really just a couple of years since I had been a cook in restaurants.

And so I asked him, how many people are staging, which is the name for essentially a long-term unpaid internship in a restaurant? How many people in the kitchen of your restaurant are staging? And he said it was, I think about a half or two thirds, which shocked me at the time. And as I've come to learn is more common in Europe. I mean, the labor in restaurants kind of became the focus of my writing about five or six years ago. And it's been a growing conversation that's only kind of erupted into the mainstream in the last year, you know, due to the great resignation. But there was a huge labor shortage happening in restaurant kitchens long before this. I was hearing every chef ask me, do you know people? And it was because pre-pandemic in the sort of chef culture era,

the problems that are foundational to restaurants, Nancy mentioned some of them, they weren't addressed. We're talking about the pay disparity between front and back of house, the cultural divide as expressed and exacerbated through the mechanics of tipping, a fear-based management system. You do everything perfect all the time, or you're yelled at a lack of worker protections, and the prevalence of addiction and mental health issues. And, you know, the pandemic, and the great resignation has been an opportunity for restaurants to rethink how they can operate in a way that values everyone. And for some restaurants, it's because they want to, they believe in some restaurants, it's because they realize if they don't, they won't have people. Whereas the Michelin Star Guide is a return to that old school way of thinking.

It's an OP to lead a system that rewards exactly the kind of behavior that needs to change in the restaurant industry. It seems sort of counterintuitive. Like you think that these restaurants with all of these stars would have the money or the resources to properly pay and treat their staff. Yes, you would absolutely think so. But when you look at the level of, for example, tableware, bathrooms have to look a certain way. You have to have a certain number of staff. You have to have a certain number of people on the floor. There is such excruciating detail that you have to go into to make everything absolutely perfect. When I was a young journalist, I was traveling with friends in France, and we visited Bernard Loiseau's restaurant. He hadn't gotten any stars yet, and he was this young, very, very passionate chef. And he told us that every morning when he woke up,

he would be pulling up his socks and saying to himself, that was his single-minded vision and goal in life. And he attained it. And he's basking in this limelight. Bernard Loiseau liked to say that he was a merchant of happiness what he meant of course was that he sold happiness to other people the happiness that came along with one of his incomparable meals but waso himself was rarely happy he suffered demons and what he feared most was that michelin would take away a star that coveted third star that meant the world to him a star, that coveted third star that meant the world to him. And I saw him at the height of his fame. He came to New York. He cooked a special lunch at Danielle and he brought in these kind of contraband products like unpasteurized cheeses and made all of his signature dishes.

Fast forward a few years later. Gomiot, a French restaurant guide less influential than Michelin, lowered La Cote d'Or's rating from 19 to 17. That hurt Bernard. About the same time, a story in the French newspaper Le Figaro said that Michelin, too, would soon take away a star. The story wasn't true. When the guide came out, Bernard still had his three stars. He knew that, but depressed, he killed himself anyway. So that's an example of how it can just be

a really, you know, it can be a great thing, but if you don't have sort of the mental fortitude to deal with the ups and downs of being in that sort of rarefied level, it can be totally devastating too. Wow. And I guess that's the pressure that you were talking about. I'm going to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together.

To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. When it comes to that kind of pressure, Nancy, to perform, how do you think the food scene in Toronto compares to places like Paris or New York? I think the food scene in Toronto is amazing and it just gets better and better every year. I've had the opportunity to travel across country for En Route a couple of years. So you can sort of see how things are progressing how there's more advancement in technique there's just embrace of all the things that you're seeing in new york whether it's fermentation nordic cuisine i think you know regional and ethnic cuisine in canada in general and in toronto uh specifically is incredible because, you know, we all know how diverse a city Toronto is.

And so the food is a reflection of the population. And there are just so many talented people here. I'm actually more excited about Bib Gourmand because when I travel, I look for these ratings that are, you know, just places that are much more humble and down to earth. They're not white table, cloth, fine dining places, but they have good food. And I think Toronto is full of potential big gourmand. And so to me to actually have another way to find these places is kind of a nice thing. I'm not that interested in three stars or even two stars. nice thing. I'm not that interested in three stars or even two stars. It's just not the way I want to eat now. But you know, there's, there still are people who do. And just for our listeners, Bib Garmand is like sort of a different tier of the Michelin, right? It's much, yeah. It's much

more like you might go for your everyday weekday meal. It might be a slightly special occasion. I was visiting my mother in Southern California and I happened to be driving down a sort of obscure route because Waze was taking me that way. And I saw this big shot sign on a Chinese restaurant saying, Bib Gourmand. And I thought, oh, I'm going to check it out. And I did, and it was worth it. So it's just kind of another little signpost that you have if you're someone who's into food and you're just popping into a city and don't know where to eat. Can I dispute that somewhat?

Yes, please. Yeah. Because I think Nancy saw and recognized that sign because you're a food writer and you are aware of that branding. because you're a food writer and you are aware of that branding, almost no one is aware of the name Bib Gourmand as very separate from the Michelin star rating system. And the consistent criticism from every North American city that's gotten a bunch of Michelin stars

is that the stars do not reflect the actual diversity of the city. And the Bib Gourmand is effectively their branding of the kind of tiered reviews that have long ghettoized, you know, best restaurant on this, right, formerly known as cheap and cheerful, or cheap beats or ethnic, and things that have been used by publications to separate linguistically from their 10 best list, and avoid calling it the 10 best expensive restaurants and then the 10 best restaurants by non-white people. And here's what the copy on Michelin Star's website says describing their bib gourmand, which is a bib restaurant will leave you

with a sense of satisfaction that having eaten so well at such a reasonable price. So it's the old like, look, it's good and look at the portions. It's totally separate. Yeah, I think that's a matter of, I mean, if I may just kind of push back a little on that, you know, you may be intuiting a sense of superiority or condescension built into Bib Gourmand. But and I would say, I mean, a lot of people do know what it is. And, you know, if you're not sort of thinking, oh, I'm going to a ghettoized restaurant in the eyes of Michelin inspectors, it is another way to make a selection. I mean, I see what you're saying. But I think there's another side to that, too. But Toronto already has Suresh Das, someone who is scouting

and telling us where to eat. We've never been a more curious city when it comes to food. There's never been more curious eaters in the city. Back then, you know, you would have to wrangle people if you want to get them to leave the city to go and try something. But nowadays, it's like people are really hungry to learn more about their neighborhoods, their surrounding neighborhoods,

and the mom and pop shops that are close by. Maybe places where the menu is in a different language and you kind of have to get used to the space before you know what to order. But there's an appetite for that now more than before. Right. I think that was what I was going to ask you guys. Do we even need this anymore when we have the internet and all sorts of local food writers, like people who aren't parachuting in to try the food here. Actually, you know, there's been a real loss

of food criticism over recent years. Montreal Gazette has lost theirs. Some of the other big city papers, Toronto Star, you know, it's Suresh and what Karen are doing is amazing and I love following them. And I think they're like restaurant critic heroes in the city. I remember early in my career, I used the word Michelin so many times and like Toronto doesn't even have a Michelin guide.

And, you know, writing about these fancy places where none of the diners looked like me and like I could never afford to eat at these places and it was just like what am I doing like what am I contributing to why am I like helping perpetuate this like hype machine of restaurants so but I mean the globe doesn't have a full-time critic now. So no, we don't need Michelin. Absolutely not. But it isn't like we have so many, I mean, so many restaurateurs complain about Yelp, for example, that it's just all over the place and they want something that's a little bit more informed. I don't know. What do you think, Corey? Corey? Corey? I don't know. What do you think, Corey?

Corey? Corey? Yeah, I mean, I was a restaurant critic at a time where I could see the genre in its last days in terms of every paper having a restaurant critic. You know, I saw Toronto go from me being one of five or six people to, as you say, there being nobody left. And on one hand, the process got democratized through social media. left. And on one hand, the process got democratized through social media. And on the other hand, you know, social media, particularly Yelp, became a platform for consumers to blackmail and harass restaurateurs. There's never a problem with more people making suggestions of where to eat. That's

always helpful. I think it's the star system and the sort of the pressure it puts on people, the classism, the, you know, particularly in the Yelp and social media sort of five stars or it's worthless era. Eater got rid of its star rating system last year. San Francisco Chronicle did it a couple of years ago, LA Times 10 years ago, you know, and particularly during the pandemic, a lot of newspapers that still did a star system suspended it because they recognized like restaurants are going through the hardest time ever we cannot tell people they're two versus three versus four star so it's particularly antiquated for michelin to come along uh with their star system as if

the hospitality world hasn't been underwater for the last two years I actually totally agree with you, Corey, that it's cruel and penalizing in some ways to have it. But I also think there's this way to think of Michelin and that tier of fine dining as sort of like the equivalent of haute couture. Would I ever buy a dress that costs $5,000? No. But I'm sort of glad that it exists because it creates really top-level artisans. In the case of fine dining, it would be patisserie or charcuterie or baking that sort of you don't have that sort of luxury anywhere else. And you're right, it's a very fraught and questionable way of doing it, but I'm sort of glad that it exists. I happened to be talking to Ian Robinson recently, who is the chef who

just closed Kippa. And I asked him about it and he said, you know, I'm really excited about it. I want to see my friends who I think deserve a Michelin star recognized on this platform, and I would be really happy for them. And he talked about the tourists that it brings into the city. And he said, you know, maybe if I'll go to this Michelin star one day, and then they'll need to eat at other restaurants, there are other days here, and they might come to mine or to other people's. So I think there are still people interested. I hate to sound like a defender of Michelin because I'm actually not that interested in it, but I just, I guess I kind of want to be the devil's advocate here. There's like, there's no doubt it's good for tourism.

And I'm all for stuff that's good for tourism. That's not like the Olympics that just, you know, clogs the city streets for two weeks of the year. And I'm excited to see, right now, diners care about restaurants and the people who work on them in a way that hasn't been part of our culture until recently. And I'd like to see that progress in our food media, of which awards bodies are part of. I don't want to hear about how great a restaurant or a chef is unless I'm hearing about how well they treat their staff. And this is just more of that. Guys, this was super fascinating. Thank you so much for this. Thank you. It was fun. It was fun talking with you both. All right. That is all for today.

Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.