Front Burner - ‘Conversion therapy’ survivor shares his story

Episode Date: July 11, 2019

In 2014, Belleville, Ont. native Matt Ashcroft decided to attend a conversion therapy camp in the U.S. He says his father was homphobic and he wanted to mend their relationship. Now he’s a fierce advocate for a nationwide ban on the practice in Canada. Matt Ashcroft speaks to host Jayme Poisson about his experience and why he thinks conversion therapy should be scrapped.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. In the fall of 1998, an elderly woman known as the Cat Lady went missing. In the fall of 1998, an elderly woman known as the Cat Lady went missing. She had a very distinctive silhouette and very recognizable when you'd see her walking into town. A handkerchief on her hair, long overcoat, like somebody that lived on the street.

All police could find were her 30 cats shot dead. I always knew something had happened to her, to just vanish like that. Uncover the Cat Lady Case from CBC Podcasts is available now. Hello, I'm city of St. Albert, Alberta, passed a motion to ban a very controversial and widely denounced practice in Canada, conversion therapy. We're the ones that can make a difference today, and that's always been our role. Municipalities have a long history of making these kind of value statements.

The move comes after a number of provinces have restricted the practice. And the federal government is now saying they're looking into criminal code reforms to better prevent and punish it. While it's unclear just how prevalent conversion therapy in Canada is, it's a practice that the Canadian Psychological Association has labeled as baseless and harmful. And it's still happening. Today on FrontBurner, I'm speaking with Matt Ashcroft. He went through conversion therapy in 2014. Matt's here with me now in time to talk to me today. Thank you for having me.

Let's start at the beginning here. Tell me where you grew up. So I grew up in a small town of Belleville, Ontario. I didn't necessarily grow up in a religious background, but I grew up very sheltered. And my dad has been pretty homophobic ever since I was younger. He has called me every name in the book. He had shamed me. He had said some really awful stuff that resulted in more shame and more shame and more shame.

Matt, can you tell me, when did you know that you were gay? I think if I was to be honest, my first experience was probably in the first grade, but it was kind of innocent. So you would kiss girls and nobody bats an eye, but when you kiss another guy everybody's like whoa ever since that I can remember it's it's just always been there tell me a little bit more about how that evolved for you um it was a very slow progression so I was I was at a house party over with my friends and my ex-girlfriend at the time.

I met up with this guy and had my first adult kiss. Freaked me out. Seriously freaked me out. And I didn't know what to do about it. And so then I turned to religion. And that was the turning point of shame-induced stuff. And why did you start going to church? It kind of scared me. My dad was, again, my dad wasn't really a nice person and I really

wanted him to accept me as much as I possibly could. accept me as much as I possibly could. I know that later in your 20s, you end up in conversion therapy. And can you tell me about the path you took to get there? So growing up in a small town, I didn't really have a lot of exposure to people like me. So I searched online and I found eventually two to three hundred people like me. And when you say people like you, what do you mean? People that identified as same-sex attracted or SSA. And so I was able to find somebody or some people that have religious affiliates exactly like me.

These are people who, like you, are struggling with their identity. That's correct. Okay. And what's happening in this chat room? There was people that were in that group that were promoting camps, camps of conversion therapy. Okay. And so it was continuous promotion after promotion after

promotion and finally i signed up to brothers road or people can change which is the program called journey into manhood and when you see these advertisements for these camps what what are they advertising what are they telling you these camps are uh that they're um they're for people that want to minimize and or diminish their same-sex attraction. And I wanted to do anything in my power to see if I can rebuild a relationship with my dad. And I thought that was the best way to go at that given time. And so you go to one of these camps, where, where is it? The camp that I went to is in New Hope, Pennsylvania. They host the, they host these camps all over the world.

When I got there, the first thing that happened was I signed a wave release form stating that I was not able to talk about it. And what that did was it really reinforced shame. And tell me now, obviously, you are talking about this. What is going on at the camp? After I signed the wave release form, I walk forward. There was a guy in a stick and he says, why are you here? And I did not know how to answer that question. I said in this room, this room had trash bags taped over the windows.

There was guys in a circle. And in the circle, there was a candle with four statues that you probably get at like a Michael's or something. And it had a candle. And everybody just sat there and looked at a candle and started to think about their shame, think about their trauma. And then they would just start to cry. And when you say think about their shame, is that their shame in being gay?

Yeah. There wasn't any minors, but there was married men. There was people that were in their 60s, youth leaders in youth ministry. There was a bunch of different people that were in their 60s, youth leaders and youth ministry. There's a bunch of different people that were involved. And are there sessions that you're having with someone who works for? It was a structured weekend. So I don't remember the entire weekend because it was mentally labor intensive. What I do remember there, there was, there was segments and sessions that, that happened that made everything just so messed up.

Like I remember they viewed being gay as an overprotective mother and an absent father. On the first night they brought out a punching bag and I had a baseball bat. I pictured the punching bag was my dad and I swung it over and over and over again, swearing and cussing at him and just angry at my dad. The idea here being that if your father was there, he would show you how to be in a traditional relationship. Yeah, like a stereotypical structural functionist relationship.

Okay. What else do you remember from that weekend? The same night, they did something called healthy holding. So all the men in the room, they would either spread their legs and you would have to sit in between their legs or you would hold them from the side. And what they did was they had this, they had this song. I still remember the song song i still remember what it's called but it's essentially a nursery baby song and so you are held by or holding a man to this song and then where it was actually quite possibly one of their needs to have a gay relationship,

they had rules and guidelines to say what you're allowed to do with that and what you're not allowed to do with that later on. And tell me more about these rules and guidelines. So after the weekend is done, you're not allowed to have sex with any of the people. And if you do have sex with somebody, you have to tell the leader of the group who you had sex with and what you did a lot of people in those in that group would fly all across the country to have sex with other men and then they would be shamed because they would tell the leader of it and then the leader would scold you and tell you what you did was wrong.

Okay. You know, when you talk about the leader, is there someone running the camp? Is this camping run by a group of people? So the camp is run by a group of people, but there's two leaders. There's now one leader that is overseeing all the camps all across the world. leader that is overseeing all the camps all across the world. Am I right to say you spent a weekend at this camp, but then you were connected to this organization for longer? That's correct.

I was a part of their Facebook group for a year or a year and a half. And I was told through the entire weekend to trust the process and to trust what was happening. And so I trusted these people. I trust, I trust, I trust, and I would get better, get better, get better. Get better as in don't be gay. Yes. Okay. Yes.

I would trust the process. I would try to change my sexual orientation, try to do the best that I could to not be gay. The problem that I had is that I wasn't able to go in it with an open mind. These people wanted to have this structural functionalist thing where you are this way, you cannot deviate from this thinking. And if you didn't fit the mold, then people would shame you and people would bully you. And I eventually just saw the behaviors and just knew that I did not want to go into that downward spiral with my mental health the way that they did. And so is it fair for me to say that this attempt at conversion therapy didn't work?

It definitely didn't work. Definitely did not. Did it have a negative effect on your mental health? Yeah. And after I left it, I just had this very big sense of removal. Felt very closed off and I felt very alone um I did have I did cry a lot I had a lot of suicidal thoughts I um I just I just felt alone I just I I didn't know what to do I I was just, I was just stuck.

I was just stuck emotionally. And even with that, like even when people early on before I was public about it, I felt that when I was sharing my story, nobody really wanted to hear it because it was too intense. So what do you do with that? You can't do anything about that. Therapists and psychologists the world over have called this practice devoid of any science, right? Completely ineffective and harmful to people. Even though this group was a very difficult place for you to be in, you also seem to have found some community.

I just know when people like us have shared stories and only me and them know exactly what we're talking about and even making changes that we're doing now, you really get a sense of community by that. As for the other people that that were on the inside of my camp i don't talk to them anymore i don't talk to them because they're on another place than what i'm at they still have the language they still use the language of conversion therapy it terrifies me to no end it's triggering and they don't realize the harm that has been done to them. And I'm cognizant enough to know what it, what it has done to me. And I don't adapt to that language at all. Essentially that they're still struggling with their own identity.

Yes. You know, you, you mentioned before that this became a really negative space for you, that the actions by the people running this group made you feel shame what happened at the camp made you feel shame and you eventually extricated yourself from this group uh how are you doing now um i'm doing really well i'm really enjoying life i i love my friends. I love the community of people that I have built. I love the coalition that I have. I'm very lucky to have the people that are around me. So let's talk about what's happening in Canada.

This camp that you went to and the organization associated with it is American. But do we have a sense of how prevalent conversion therapy is here? If you look up unwanted same-sex attraction or how to cure unwanted same-sex attraction by a Google search, you'll be able to find something. If you, there is conversion therapy camps

that were held in Alberta and we know who you are. You are still practicing some of the practices that I have done in my conversion therapy camps. I know that because I know the people who actually created this stuff. It strikes me, and I don't know if you would agree with this, but in the past, conversion therapy included things

that were more overt, like electric shock therapy and institutionalization. But with the rise of LGBTQ issues and rights, conversion therapy has gone a lot more underground, right? We're seeing examples that aren't as overt, like what happened to you? That's correct. It is happening more underground. Okay. You know, we're talking about Canada here.

A small town in Alberta, St. Albert, will become the first city in Alberta to ban conversion therapy. Part of what sparked this was Alberta's UCP government scrapping a task force set up by the NDP to explore a provincial ban on the practice. I should note Jason Kenney, the premier of Alberta, said that his government's position is actually the same as the NDP's. His health minister said it's just not possible to access conversion therapy in Alberta. I know that this is something that you would dispute. And I understand, though, that you'll be heading to Ottawa to share your story and to advocate for a nationwide band. What specific changes would you like to see here? Specifically, there was a report that came out with the Canadian Bar Association, which I found interesting.

What was recommended is five years in prison for somebody that practiced conversion therapy, and I think that would see fit. I know that there are existing criminal code offenses, such as kidnapping, forcible confinement, and assault that some people say may apply in these cases, but that it just, it doesn't go far enough. Before I let you go, one last question. If someone listening right now has a family that doesn't accept them or they're struggling with their relationship with family members like you were, or someone who's going through conversion therapy themselves,

what would you say to this person? You are beautiful. You have no reason to think anything different. Embrace who you are and it does get better. I'm very happy to say that I am living as a gay man and I have a boyfriend who I love and I'm just really enjoying my life right now. It drastically improved after I got out of that camp. I'm so happy to hear that. Matt, thank you. Thank you.

So yesterday we got in touch with Brothers Road. They run the camp that Matt went to. We wanted to check some facts and to get a comment from them about Matt's experience. The group's founder and director replied to ask why media like the CBC are, quote, seldom interested in speaking to the vast majority of participants who find the program extremely affirming and beneficial. He said the program is a peer-led experiential weekend and that it is not therapy and certainly not conversion therapy.

He added that the term conversion therapy is, quote, made up by media and opponents of any therapy sought by anyone who experiences unwanted same-sex attractions. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to Frontburner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus.

Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.