Front Burner - Cooking with gas: the great stove debate

Episode Date: January 13, 2023

This week, a kitchen appliance became the latest target of the culture wars after a recent study linked gas stoves with an increased risk of asthma in children. American politicians from Democratic Senator Joe Manchin to Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz made passionate statements in defense of their gas stoves, all because a consumer watchdog had begun looking into options for phasing out gas stoves. It all follows decades of research that shows cooking with gas comes with health risks and contributes to greenhouse gas emissions. We're joined by Vox's Rebecca Leber, a senior reporter who covers climate change.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. For all the talk of electric versus gas-powered vehicles, there's another, arguably more divisive debate around a seemingly innocent appliance, our stoves. Since the 1950s, gas-powered cooktops

have been sold as this better option. Hello, look at my collection of famous menus. They certainly bring back memories of wonderful meals. Meals, I'm proud to say, cooked with gas. In fact, 95% of all restaurants use gas. About 35% of U.S. households use gas stoves, and as of 2015, there were roughly 1.2 million gas ranges in Canadian homes. But more and more research shows that for any cooking benefits, there are serious health and environmental concerns. Just a few weeks ago, a study found the appliances account for nearly 13% of current cases of childhood asthma in the United States, a health risk that's comparable to secondhand smoke. Since then, gas stoves have become the newest target in the culture wars.

Joe Biden's climate change agenda now targeting your kitchen. Biden's coming for your gas stove. A ban on your gas stove. Ban gas-powered stoves. Safety. Safety? And your family dinner is about to get a lot less tasty. A ban on your gas stove. Ban gas-powered stoves. Safety. Safety. And your family dinner is about to get a lot less tasty. America's not going to stand for this.

There's not. Nobody's going to tell me I can't cook with gas. Go to SaveTheStoves.com. I got a petition up and running that we're going to send to the Biden administration and tell them what nonsense this is and have them stop this stuff. Today, I'm joined by Rebecca Lieber. She's a senior reporter with Vox covering climate change. And she's here with me now to explain the latest backlash around gas stoves, what the

science says about them, and how they became a status symbol. Rebecca, hey, thanks so much for doing this today. It's great to be here. I want to get into the criticisms of gas stoves in more detail in a bit. But first, I just want to clarify this alleged ban. So this week, Texas Congressman Ronny Jackson tweeted, quote, I'll never give up my gas stove. If the maniacs in the White House come for my stove, they can pry it from my cold, dead hands. Come and take it. What is this all about? Is the Biden administration really threatening to come after

people's stoves? Yeah, thanks for the chance to clarify. To be clear, there is no ban. There actually is no regulation on gas stoves. This was a report, I think, started by Bloomberg talking about the Consumer Product Safety Commission looking at the evidence and starting public hearings to consider its options, what it might do around gas stoves. So there is no regulation in place. And the likely scenario that they end up doing, it won't be a ban. It's more likely that they'll choose some other route. The Biden administration has already come out very strongly saying that there is no ban coming. So I just want people to relax a bit that no one is coming to rip out a gas stove from their place. Pry it from our cold, dead hand. Okay, so now let's talk about why people are even talking

about this. So members of the GOP, like Congressman Jackson, have said there's no legitimate basis to regulate stoves. They'll say there's some kind of science behind it that justifies it. There's no valid, legitimate science that suggests that this type of cooking is any more hazardous than any other type of cooking. It's cheaper. It's faster. It's more efficient. And as you mentioned, 187 million Americans have this in their homes right now. But obviously, this is a new technology. So just generally speaking, what has scientific research found about any potential health risks when it comes to gas stoves? Yeah, this is a great conversation to be having right now because there is this pile of research spanning decades showing a link between gas

appliances, namely the gas stove, and respiratory conditions and cardiovascular conditions. So there's a bunch of pollutants that come out when you turn the gas stove on. That includes methane. There are traces of formaldehyde and, of course, carbon monoxide. But the pollutant that we're most concerned about is nitrogen dioxide. And that is shown very clearly in the scientific literature to inflame our lungs, to aggravate any existing conditions. And children are especially vulnerable here. So there is a link to causing childhood asthma. So I think this is great that this is actually getting out there because this research has been in the works for years.

And I think there was this disconnect where the public wasn't aware of it. You've done some really excellent reporting on this issue, and it ties to the fossil fuel industry, which we're going to talk about too. But you wrote that gas stoves and ovens also produce far worse indoor air pollution than most people realize. And that running a gas stove and oven for just an hour can produce unsafe pollutant levels throughout your house all day. I was shocked when I read that. So the U.S. EPA regulates these kinds of emissions when it comes to the outdoors. The EPA would consider the levels that can be produced inside the home illegal outdoors, and they have regulations in place to try to lower the nitrogen dioxide levels.

The problem is we don't have this regulation or any kind of oversight when it comes to our indoor appliances. The gas stove is just venting this straight into our space. And most people don't have any kind of ventilation or what they have is inadequate to actually lower those emissions. I'll just note for our listeners here, a few years ago, scientists in Saskatchewan did a study that took pollution readings inside homes after gas stoves have been used for cooking. And they found that the pollutants exceeded Health Canada guidelines for a one-hour exposure and that they also lingered for hours after the cooking was over. So very similar to what you had in your piece as well. The gas industry has pushed back at a lot of these studies, right, saying that the stoves meet safety guidelines and that all cooking, whether it's

electricity or gas, creates airborne emissions. But do they, I guess is my question, is it the same as running an electric stove? Gas cooking is different because you're combusting a fossil fuel. Electric cooking does produce some particulate matter, but what's different is gas, you're combusting methane, which produces byproducts like what we're talking about, nitrogen dioxide. When it comes to gas cooking, this is also a contributor to climate change and not just our own health, but it's warming the planet when we look at all the gas appliances that power our buildings. So I would argue this is different. I think the gas industry, which we can get into, what the gas industry tends to argue is, look,

this is safe because we don't have regulations or we've always done it this way. So there's nothing to worry about. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is deciding on whether to ban gas stoves totally because of safety. Safety? We've had these stoves for over 100 years. Again, I point to that disconnect where the public isn't aware of the science here. And just because the EPA doesn't regulate the stove doesn't necessarily make it safe for us to use or mean it is risk free. So I just want people to come away recognizing that gas cooking is a fossil fuel and you're burning it inside your home. Yeah, inside your kitchen.

You know, if you just think about that for a second. Yesterday, I was like, oh, that's exactly what I'm doing. Before we move on, I feel like maybe this is a question that might be top of mind for people listening right now. It is for me. Like, I have a hood fan over my gas stove. If I ran that more often, would it help mitigate some of these pollutants? Yeah, I'm curious if you have the kind of range hood that actually connects to outside. So that's

a ducted hood because there's a difference here. The gold standard for ventilation is that range hood that vents the pollution directly outdoors. But most people or lots of people, including myself, don't have that. What they might have is this fan that just recirculates the air indoors. That's not doing much to actually clean the air. Or they have nothing at all. In my case, I have no fan. And what I try to do is crack open a window. So if you have a range hood, if you're one of the lucky people, use it.

I think there's another problem where people who have these hoods actually don't turn them on. So I would urge you to always turn it on when you're cooking. Yeah, I am one of those people. And also, I'm pretty sure now that you've said that it's not connected to the outside, either. You were talking about climate change and emissions here. And I guess how big of a role does something like a gas stove play when compared to gas powered cars or even the furnaces in our home? Gas cooking actually has this complicated relationship to climate change because when we look at our building's footprint in climate change, it's pretty sizable. For the U.S.,

gas combustion in buildings contributes to about 12 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions. When it comes to cooking, it's basically a fraction of that because cooking, when you compare it to other gas appliances like heaters and water heaters, so your furnace or boiler, it's producing a lot less methane than these other appliances. So when you're looking at the climate footprint, it's important to look at the building footprint as a whole. But oftentimes, if you're hooked up to gas in one area, you're probably also running other appliances that are also hooked up to gas. So I think that's one thing to keep in mind. But the second around the climate footprint is there's been emerging research showing that the gas stove can leak methane even when it's not on. There was a really interesting study showing that, of course, the stove is producing methane as it's supposed to when it's on, but even when it's off, there can be

leaks coming from the piping in the wall and at any point in these connections where methane is escaping. And again, these aren't huge amounts, but over time, you can see how that really builds up if you have an undetected methane leak. Methane, by design, it's this leaky system that produces emissions. emissions. And at every point from the oil and gas operations to the point it gets to your house, it can leak into the atmosphere. And that's where the climate problem really, yeah, really comes through. Methane emissions rising globally. The world of tomorrow is cooking with gas. 25 hamburgers, 20 lamb chops, or two whole chickens. That's the amazing capacity of the most advanced broiler offered on ranges today.

And it's only available in gas. They save you money and save our country's energy supplies. And remember, anytime you need us, your gas company is as close as your telephone. The gas people don't forget you after the sale is made. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization,

empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together.

To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to talk to you about the aesthetic of gas stoves here, like how they became so popular and coveted. Last year, a survey in British Columbia found that nearly half of residents said they preferred cooking with gas over electric. And just over the past decade, there's been a 47% rise in natural gas cooking appliances in detached homes and townhomes in that province. And given what we know about the health effects and the environmental risks and impacts, how did gas stoves get such a good reputation, right? Wow, those stats are wild.

When I was at Mother Jones first reporting on this issue, I was wondering, how did the gas stove become the status symbol? I think you're right that it's this picture of the best cook or you should have that gas range in your kitchen. And so I dug into archives to figure out what the marketing around gas dose has been dating back a century. And it's fascinating. The very phrase cooking with gas actually was an invention of the gas industry in the 30s. And going into the 50s, they were using actresses. Marlene Dietrich was one of them that appeared in ads posing as this ideal housewife with the gas stove and how this was such a healthy alternative,

how this is a superior way to cook. When cooking requires an especially delicate touch, good cooks appreciate the complete control they get with natural gas, the friendly fuel. Clean, clever natural gas responds quickly and surely helps you cook better. And I think those myths really carry through to today where this is just pervasive. I think that it's just taken as a matter of fact that gas cooks better. And I find traces of that marketing campaign even today. When I was at Mother Jones, I reported out the story looking at this gas industry campaign

where they hired social media influencers to pose with gas stoves with the hashtag cooking with gas. Or they talked about, quote, how great their natural gas stove was. They would always say the phrase natural gas. Now, a key to a really good sear is making sure you have a super hot pan. Now, with natural gas, it's so great because I can control the temperature really easily and the pan gets up to temperature super fast. I'm going to add in a little... And it is wild. I think the kind of marketing of this as this aesthetic, this is paid advertising and it has bled over into just our cultural discourse. I just want to mention for the sole reason that we have to play it in this podcast right now,

you also found this rap commercial from the 80s. I cook with gas because the cost is much less than electricity. Do you want to take a guess? Well, it's three times less in the East or West. So remember those figures when it's time to take a test. in the East or West. So remember those figures when it's time to take a test. It strikes me, Rebecca, that there are a lot of different avenues for these gas companies to make money. And I do wonder if like gas stoves are really up there, right, with their top revenue makers. And so why are they going so hard on stoves here? Yeah, this is a really great question

because like climate change, this is a little more complicated. The gas stove isn't a huge issue in terms of profits for the industry. That comes down to how much gas we're using. So like I said earlier, our boilers and furnaces are actually using a lot more gas. So that's where they're making their profits from. But the gas stove has this hold on the public's imagination. And that is what's most valuable to the industry. Seems like this is just a ploy to get you to buy more stuff the Democrats are selling. They want to make us, for new restaurant construction, use electric stoves.

We lose 40% productivity by using electric. I'm a cook. Nobody's going to tell me I can't cook with gas. First of all, any good cook cooks with gas. Most people don't really care if their heating comes from gas or electric, solar panel, as long as it works. But there is this attachment to gas for the stove and gas cooking that's different. And the industry has really used this to leverage its position when it comes to electrification campaigns throughout the U.S., throughout Canada. They can use that love for the gas stove to push back against any efforts to take gas out of new buildings. Right.

to push back against any efforts to take gas out of new buildings. Right. And like you said before, usually when you have one thing hooked up to gas, you hook up other things. But it's such a good point that you make. I have literally never heard anybody talk about how much they love their gas furnace, right? But you hear people talk about how much they love cooking with gas all the time. all the time. When it comes to natural gas in Canada, I know the city of Vancouver now requires all heating in new low-rise residential buildings to be zero emissions. And in Quebec, by the end of the year, it will be illegal to replace existing furnaces with a fossil fuel-powered heating system. Some places in the U.S., like Berkeley in California and New York, have banned new gas hookups.

And how have those measures been received so far? I guess we did hear some of that reaction. Yeah, it's a bit mixed because we are seeing these efforts at the local level. Dozens of cities have passed this gas ban in new construction, so not necessarily existing. And lots more are considering it this year. But there is a backlash, I'd argue, fueled in a lot of cases by the fossil fuel industry. Each one of these fights have been hard won because every time the gas industry has shown up and in a lot of cases they've shown up with these this variety of tactics to pressure officials to not pursue

this route. There's been other types of reaction so a lot of Republican-led states have responded to what's happening in states like California and New York by passing a ban on gas bans. Representative Bill Huizenga introduced the STOVE Act, which stands for Stop Trying to Obsessively Vilify Energy. The proposed bill states no federal agency may propose, implement, or finalize a rule that bans the use and purchase of gas-powered stoves, cooktops, ranges, or ovens. Huizenga says in part, Americans should have the ability to choose the most affordable and most available way to cook food in their own home. So they're telling their cities, you can't consider any kind of electrification in the future. So this is a really active fight. We're going to see this continue. I think this week is the first time this has really broken through on a national level, but it's already playing out locally. And the gas industry brings deep pockets to this, and they are going to fight. There's been some really crazy tactics that have popped up.

One was in California, a firm that was hired by SoCal Gas, a big utility there, had posted on Nextdoor, the social media app for neighbors, posing as one of the neighbors concerned about a local potential electrification effort ban on gas. And they specifically pointed out the gas stove in their comments saying, I don't want to give up my gas stove. They were clearly trying to generate a thread on Nextdoor of opposition. When I reached out to the firm, it turns out this employee did not live in this area and was not being upfront about his connections. I approached the PR firm. They said this employee was acting alone, but I did find other examples of comments on Nextdoor that I was not able to identify.

So that's one way social media has been used. The other way we talked about were these Instagram influencers hired by the industry. There's a lot of clever tactics, but there's a lot of local support for these measures, too, both from climate activists pushing electrification, but also people concerned about their health and the health of their children. It causes asthma in kids and adults. And it's no company should have a pipeline of these toxic chemicals into our homes. of these toxic chemicals into our homes. There's no denying we have inadvertently dug ourselves into a hole with the use of fossil fuels for energy and must engineer a quick and major shift

if we are to avert the worst scenarios of climate change. We didn't know. Now we do. So they're up against a lot. And this is happening at every fight on the local level. And when you get further up in government, the state level and national, the gas industry just has even further reach and more resources to fight this. So this is just the beginning. We're going to see a lot more like this coming in the next few months.

Yeah. I think this year will be a really telling time for the future of the gas stove. Rebecca, this was so interesting. Thank you so much for coming on and for taking us through this. I'm glad you're covering it. Thank you. All right, that is it for this week. All right, that is it for this week. Frontburner was produced this week by Shannon Higgins, Lauren Donnelly, Derek Vanderwyk, Rafferty Baker, Jodi Martinson, and Allie Janes. Our sound design was by Sam McNulty and Mackenzie Cameron.

Our music is by Joseph Chabasim. Our executive producer is Nick McKay-Blocos, and I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.