Front Burner - DaBaby, Lil Nas X and homophobia in hip hop

Episode Date: August 13, 2021

DaBaby’s recent homophobic rant at a major music festival has set off a conversation about anti-gay sentiment and toxic masculinity in hip hop. Today, two rappers reflect on the controversy around DaBaby, the rise of Lil Nas X and the lack of queer representation in their industry.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jonathan Mobutzi, in for Jamie Poisson. Before we get started with today's episode, I want to give you a heads up. We're going to talk about the rapper DaBaby and some comments he made that caused a lot of anger in the LGBTQ community. Some listeners might find them distressing. A couple of weeks ago, DaBaby stopped in the middle of a show at Rolling Loud in Miami to go on a rant.

You didn't show up today with HIV, AIDS, any of them dead, essential, expanse, many diseases. They'll make you die in two, three weeks, put a cell phone light in the oven. They were hateful and homophobic comments about HIV. And he went on, telling the audience to, quote, raise their lit-up cell phones if they weren't gay men having sex in parking lots. The fallout was quick. DaBaby was dropped from a bunch of big events, business deals, and some radio stations won't even play his music anymore. When the outrage got louder, the rapper posted a formal apology on social media.

But this week, he deleted that apology from Instagram. These developments got a lot of people in the hip-hop industry talking. When he said it, my husband showed it to me. And I was like, you know, because I never, I thought I never was like a fan of the baby as far as like a rapper. I thought he was cute or whatever. never was like a fan of the baby as far as like a rapper i thought he was cute or whatever but you know like the way he talked about girls and women and he's very disrespectful but i never expected that like i never expected a rapper to get on stage and say if you ain't got hiv and you ain't gonna die in two weeks put your phone phone up. Because it was like, okay, he just proved that this is really how he feel.

And we're kind of used to that. That's Bugs Gutta, a.k.a. William Bailey. He's a rapper based in New York. Like a lot of other queer hip-hop artists, he's come across people like DaBaby his entire career. I met so many straight men who felt this way, like the way the baby feel and other people about gay people. And then they have a chance to be around them and they will tend to be okay around you, but they never fully accept you and they just tolerate us. And I think if we as a community, especially this new generation, we're not trying to be tolerated. You'll hear more from William Bailey in a bit,

but first I'm talking to Canadian rapper Roley Pemberton, aka Cadence Weapon, about DaBaby's comments and how they've set off a conversation about homophobia and toxic masculinity in hip-hop. Hey, Roley, thanks so much for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. Let's start with what DaBaby said. What did you think when you heard his rant? Well, when I first heard it, my first thought was, you know, this is really ignorant. It made me a little embarrassed to just be in the same profession because I feel like spreading so much false information to this huge audience of young, impressionable people. Not only that, but it's also something like HIV and AIDS that really affects the Black

community a lot disproportionately and further demonizing people who are, I think, the most vulnerable people in society. It's just a really shameful moment. And he said this at the largest hip hop festival in front of a massive audience. We're talking like tens of thousands of people. How significant do you think that was? Well, I think that was really significant. I think maybe that might be why the backlash is so extreme, because not only it was like tens of thousand people in person, but, you know, this festival was streamed online. It's the biggest thing in hip hop. Like, that's like our Woodstock nowadays.

So he took an opportunity to say these comments at the biggest possible audience he could. So there was obviously a lot of outrage, but there were also artists who came to DaBaby's defense. Some of his fans said, oh, this is just another example of cancel culture. Tell me about the range of reactions we've heard. Yeah, you know, I watch a lot of the Instagram hip hop pages, like academics and stuff. And I look at the comments on there and you're seeing a lot of people talking about cancel culture and talking about how he shouldn't he shouldn't apologize he needs to stick by his guns and everything and there's like a lot of support for what he's saying you know he's that that he's entitled to his opinion things like that and to me watching it I feel like suddenly

being a hip-hop fan like it's like I'm a part of like some kind of right wing, like Reddit page or something. Like, it doesn't feel like the politics of hip hop as I know them. Does it does it break down by generation of hip hop artists at all? I would say like when it comes to artists, you know, the older artists for sure. These are the people who are defending DaBaby, you know, people like T.I., who was in the news for, you know, talking about his daughter in a really creepy way, you know, and like... The LAPD investigating rapper T.I., two women, one in Los Angeles and one in Las Vegas, accusing T.I. and his wife, Tiny, of drugging and sexually assaulting them more than a decade ago.

Now, the LAPD confirmed to NBC News that they are investigating T.I., but would not say if it was over those particular allegations. The LAPD says... Boosie, who is a person who's just always saying really ignorant, like, thoughtless comments. It's sad how y'all trying to force this gay stuff on the world. It's sad how y'all trying to ban artists. Y'all sad, bro. It's sad, bro. But I also think there's like a young segment of, I would say, white suburban rap fans who, you know, they feel like this kind of behavior is like, oh, he's like an outlaw. Oh, he's like Trump. He just says whatever he wants.

I feel like myself and a lot of hip hop fans don't want to be a part of either side. Okay, I want you to hear a bit more from William Bailey. He's the queer hip hop artist we heard from before. He says that he's dealt with homophobia since basically since the start of his career. Well, when I first and first first started was like in the early parts of the 2000s. Back then, the people who I was dealing with wanted me to not be openly gay. They basically wanted me to hide that. So that was probably the reason why I'm going to say probably that was the reason why I never pursued music after that, because I felt like I couldn't. I felt like there was no place. Now, Bailey did eventually

pursue music again, but he also told us that being a gay man in the hip-hop industry was really difficult. Some years ago, yeah, like, it was times where I, because, like, I don't, like, to the eye, to the normal, I don't come across as gay, you know, so I met people and, you know, they heard me rap and want to, I got, I actually have songs with people that can't come out because they found out I was gay. It's like a person not knowing you gay and give you all the props and want to work with you. But once they find out, it's like, it's been times where people was like, no, I'm good. I don't want to be associated with that. Roley, what's it like to hear that from a fellow artist? That's definitely real.

I mean, hip hop has had a lot of misogyny, a lot of homophobia from the very beginning. First thing I think of is, you know, even on like Grandmaster Flash, The Message, you know, there's gay swear in that song. Dropping out of high school, now you're unemployed All non-void, walking around like your pretty boy Floyd like all this stuff that we grow up on and you still hear these things. I think that's one of the most important things about having more diversity in hip hop music, because I feel like the audience doesn't want to hear this stuff.

I feel bad recommending some of these like bigger rappers who say things that are hurtful to large segments of society. And this is a real like turning point moment for hip hop. In what sense is it a turning point? Where is it coming from and where do you think it's going? Well, I feel like there's been a lot of hip hop fans who've had this like simmering feeling of embarrassment about some of the things that rappers have said over the years, what they've rapped about over the years. And I feel like you're seeing a lot more diversity with artists like Lil Nas X, who I would say arguably is the biggest rapper. And he's doing it just by being himself and creating a lane where there wasn't one before. And people are really gravitating to that. It feels like there is a bit of a power shift happening within hip-hop. Call me when you want, call me when you need Call me in the morning, I'll be on the way

Call me when you want, call me when you need Call me by your name, I'll be on the way Oh, call me by your name Tell me you love me, probably call me by your name In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

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In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. All right, Roli, let me ask you straight on, how prevalent is homophobia in hip hop in your experience? In my experience, I mean, when I was first starting out just as an underground rapper in Edmonton, it was a very male, very heteronormative environment. It was very sexist. And yeah, you'd hear in battle rap, that's something that was standard. That was one of the reasons why I got out of battling, really. It's about saying the other person's gay or

whatever, or saying they're effeminate. That was never anything I wanted to do. It did feel a little bit like it was a part of hip hop. It's a shame, but I think it goes from even my local scene all the way to like the biggest rappers back in the 80s and 90s. It was commonplace. Like, so why is it a part of hip hop? And like hip hop's obviously not monolithic, but why is there that presence in hip hop, do you think?

I mean, there's a few reasons. I mean, hip hop is really reflective of the culture that it's in. And I feel like if you were to go look at a movie from the 80s, you might think that the cultural touchstones and the way that they spoke would be totally out of step with today, right? And it's the same with rap. I feel like you don't hear that kind of stuff lyrically in rap as often today than you would have in the late 80s, early 90s. But I think one of the reasons for that would be, you know, there's a connection

to like the kind of pimp culture that a lot of rappers are influenced by. There's a lot of like prison culture where, you know, being gay is really frowned upon and then there's also like the kind of catholic upbringings that rappers have where it's totally frowned upon bailey also talked about how this has to do with a fear of an agenda to emasculate black men within hip-hop it's like okay well we can't allow y'all to represent us because if you represent us as a rapper and you gay, then that makes us all gay. And it makes us all look soft. Like they have this crazy idea that it's an agenda to strip the black man of his masculinity and I guess make everybody gay. Does that does that resonate with you?

I definitely have heard some things like that. One of the things I think of is when Dave Chappelle talked about the whole phenomenon of black comedians, black actors being forced to put on drag and this being a way of emasculating them

in the mainstream. They got me. I mean, I'm a conspiracy theorist to a degree. Like when I connect dots that maybe shouldn't be connected, I don't know. But certain dots, like when I see that

they put every black man in the movies in a dress at some point in their career, I'll be connecting them down. Like, why are all these bros gotta wear a dress? This happened to me. But yeah, I feel like

that's more, in rap, it's more of like a conspiracy way of thinking and i feel like okay conspiracies have been deeply connected to hip-hop from the very beginning like so much of wu-tang is just like all conspiratorial raps and i feel like this is a lot of people in the comments of like reddit pages the comments of instagram being like yeah you know they're platforming this gay rapper and, there's this agenda to like turn our children gay or something. And to me, it reminds me of like, looking at like InfoWars with Alex Jones or something like, you know, it makes me really embarrassed to be a rap fan. Because it's like, this is not why I got into rap. I got into rap because I believe in creativity of language. I believe in like the progressiveness of like freaking beats and sampling tracks and doing things differently and having different perspectives than are in the mainstream.

And to see what I consider this very conservative way of thinking, like seeping into hip hop more and more uh it's really embarrassing to me so we just heard from william bailey about the homophobia he's lived through in this industry and some of the reasons why it's so so prevalent but at the same time i can't help but think about the rise in queer representation that we're seeing now in hip-hop with somebody like Lil Nas X, who's a huge star. I told you long ago on the road I got what you're waiting for I don't wait for wrong from nothing, dog Get your soul, just tell them ain't laying low You was never really rolling for me anyway

Roley, what does his success tell you? Well, it tells you that there's definitely an audience that's hungry for something different. There's a large segment of hip-hop fans who feel like they haven't been represented over the years, and I think representation matters in music. This is somebody doing something not only musically different, because I feel like it's this really cool combination of pop and hip-hop sensibility, and his personality is so unique, and he's a child of the internet. But I also feel like this is a part of something that has been building over

time, whether it's with someone like Frank Ocean or Tyler creator. shit for the guardian that is what i was hiding that was real love i was in ain't no reason to pretend god and shit god and shit god and shit god and shit for the gossons the feelings that i was guarding heavy on my mind all my friends lost they couldn't read the signs i didn't want to talk just people being more open about their sexuality and having different perspectives and i feel like lil nas x really blew the doors open for this way of thinking yeah and and william bailey told us that lil nas x X has opened doors for artists like him to be more visible and to kind of, you know, have careers in the industry. I call him my niece. I'd be like, get it, niece, every time I see him up there dancing and stuff.

I appreciate it so much because I know I remember growing up and I couldn't, I didn't see that on TV at all. So for young black gay little boys to be able to see it and say, yo, I want to be there. I want to do that. I think that's amazing. He is allowing us to be more visible. Absolutely. Yeah. No, that's, there's, there's one thing about rap, you know, it's like men lie, women lie, numbers don don't Lil Nas X is one of the biggest artists you can see the real engagement with this music it's really touching people in a different way it's people who have been hungry and thirsty for

rap that's about something else or rap that's coming from a different perspective and they're speaking with their dollars and they're speaking with their streams in life we hide the parts of ourselves we don't want the world to see. We lock them away. We tell them no. We banish them. But here, we don't. Welcome to Montero.

So speaking of streams, Montero, you know, the track Lil Nas released earlier this year, it was hugely praised by the LGBTQ community for being so unapologetic. But he also became the target of some pretty ugly homophobic attacks because some people took offense with the imagery he used in the video, which involves Satan and a laugh. Wasn't that the little boy from Old Time Road? He was just going to get on his little horse. That's that little boy.

What? He's all grown up. For these musical acts seeking attention, what's most outrageous is the timing of this. It was intentionally dropped on the eve of Holy Week. Try this with any other religious group than Christians. During their holy days, and Naz might find himself sliding down that pole for real.

This is desperate and really now what stands out about the backlash to montero, I think a lot of the backlash is definitely a lot of these older rappers or establishment rappers being afraid. But I feel like a lot of it goes back to that kind of like old school conservative Christian upbringing that some of these rappers have. Back in the day with hip hop is like there were certain rules that you had to abide by. There were certain things that, oh, yeah,, it's not cool to be satanic. I feel like that's one of the things that makes Lil Nas X one of the most important artists today.

It's a really radical shift in what is allowed to be rap. So he's bringing new content to not only the style of hip hop, but also just what you can rap about, what you include in your lyrics. Exactly. Exactly. Like there's so much about what he does. That's really subversive. And I feel like anyone who complains about what he's doing, they really out themselves as a homophobe, you know, because it's like, if he wasn't gay and he was doing the same thing, they'd be right behind him. Roli, what needs to happen now in the industry for real progress in dealing with homophobic and misogynistic attitudes? Like what do you think artists and producers and record labels need to start doing? Well, I think you're seeing it with what happened to DaBaby.

Like we need to divest from artists who have these totally wrong viewpoints. They need to be, in my opinion, excommunicated from the industry, and they don't need to be platformed. DaBaby was one of the biggest artists in the world before he did this. I think it really shows how much our culture has shifted that festivals are dropping them because they want to be more in tune with a certain set of values that more fans have nowadays. I really think the most important thing is just to keep going. Like Lil Nas X, that's one artist. I think we need more gay artists in hip hop. I think we need more trans

artists, more women artists, people of all different diverse backgrounds, because that's what's going to keep rap alive. We need different perspectives and we need different ideas. Roli Pemberton, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Some news before we let you go. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is expected to visit Rideau Hall on Sunday to ask that Parliament be dissolved, triggering an election. This is according to sources with knowledge of the plans who talked to CBC News on the condition that they not be named. The campaign is expected to run for 36 days, which means voting day would be Monday, September 20th.

That's all for this week. FrontBurner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show was produced this week by Katie Toth, Ali Janes, Imogen Burchard, and Simi Bassi. Our sound design was by Derek Vanderwyk and Mackenzie Cameron. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of FrontBurner this week is Elaine Chao. I'm Jonathan Monpzy. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. El-Amin Abdelmahmoud will be with you on Monday. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.